Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition

[DarkGrath]

Thank you for taking the time to comment. Please let me know if there are any things you are ify on. I understand the initial blog was not as informative as it needed to be. As current leader of this project I can provide necessary scans for anything you are a bit wary of.

Perhaps some further contextual scans on the quotes surrounding the "endless landcapes and innumerable faces" as well as the "endless cycle of creation and destruction" would be helpful, if possible? I understand why they would be contentious, given that they wouldn't necessarily mean much on their own without the context to explain what they are supposed to mean. As far as I can tell, the context supports them enough to make them viable justifications, but the scans themselves don't give much of this context.

It's rather often that scans are given without much context in the scan, and the context is just explained separately. So if this isn't possible, it's cool with me. I just feel it might quell some of the wariness people might have around them.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Perhaps some further contextual scans on the quotes surrounding the "endless landcapes and innumerable faces" as well as the "endless cycle of creation and destruction" would be helpful, if possible?

Endless landscapes and innumerable faces refers to worlds in the CU. It’s supported by Maki’s statement, from Persona 1, saying everyone’s consciousness are like little bubbles in the Sea of Souls. This is further contextualized by Maruki stating everyone has a personal world, which obviously alludes to landscapes.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

@Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to evaluate this as well? It would help us a lot with reaching a conclusion here.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

I have some stuff I may share to the thread later, but I'll maybe do it, this afternoon maybe. It's some possible counters having talked to a friend on Discord about this thread.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So tiring, I just want Ultima to approve this so we can close this, I’m tired of answering the same questions, truthfully.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

An endless cycle of stagnation

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

I have some stuff I may share to the thread later, but I'll maybe do it, this afternoon maybe. It's some possible counters having talked to a friend on Discord about this thread.

Wouldn't it be easier if they just made an account instead of having you relay it?

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Uhhh, idk if they have interest in commenting themselves, but I can see.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Aight, so I asked a friend about this subject a little, and he said the following. Idk how much of this he read, but I'll copy it out anyway so you guys can say anything you need in response.
"I don't have any issue with the Velvet room being a higher dimension disconnected from ordinary space time. Heck, Persona is part of the same multiverse as SMT, which already has tons of that.
I don't think it really impacts any stats though. A character being able to enter or exist in a higher dimension doesn't automatically make them multiversal/complex multiversal. And AFAIK, no persona users would scale to anyone who can or has manipulated the Velvet Room to such an extent that it would give them those stats.
The closest I can think of is maybe Nyx, but I'm doubtful and only Universe Arcana Minato would scale to Nyx fully awakened. Yaldy was able to trap and imprison Igor in the Velvet Room, but that doesn't mean he had complete and total control over the place, or could destroy it all. Especially since Igor is technically not the most powerful entity from the Velvet Room in the first place (that would be Philemon). Even Maruki's actualization doesn't reach or affect the Velvet Room.
If there's something to imply persona users can or would scale to someone who can I'm all ears."
As for sauce on SMT and Persona being within the same Multiverse claim, it comes from the following text:
"SMT If is part of the same universe as Persona. The protagonist to SMT If appears in the original Persona and P2. https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Tamaki_Uchida Stephen also appears in one of the endings to SMT If and is the source of the Devil Summoner Program the protagonist uses, and it's established via SMT Apocalypse and Word of God that Stephen is the same person across all the SMT games since he's a transcendental being. eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2016/08/apocalypse-artbook.html"

If you have anything to say to any of these claims or words of his, let me hear em.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

None of those claims have absolutely anything to do with what’s currently being discussed, and some weren’t even mentioned at all.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Okay, I see, sorry bout that.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Anyways, back to waiting on Ultima.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Well, reading through all of that multiple times over the course of a couple days has given me a headache. But I think I have a grasp on the current arguments being presented.

In it's current state, I agree with Dr Whitee. I'm probably not the single most reliable staff member when it comes to evaluating dimensional tiering, but from the standards I do understand, I fully believe that the current evidence being presented should offer enough justification for Low 1-C.

I should note on top of this that some of the referencing seems to be a bit disorganised, and a few people have semi-noted this already; certain sources are given without context, without proper timestamping, or are generally excessive and unnecessary for the exact point being made. It'd be good if these could be organised better if further arguments need to be made.

I added in the context to both of those scans in my last rebuttal to Matt. Let me know if there is anything else.

 

[DarkGrath]

I mainly meant as in, if further scans existed that explained the context you referred to in that post. Since the context is so vital in regards to whether the scans say what we think they do, further scans that confirm the context you brought up would pretty much seal the deal. Even so, I don't think it's necessary; it's not as if I'm accusing you of lying about the context, and most major CRTs don't feel the need to go that far with individual details.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Endless landscapes and innumerable faces refers to worlds in the CU. It’s supported by Maki’s statement, from Persona 1, saying everyone’s consciousness are like little bubbles in the Sea of Souls. This is further contextualized by Maruki stating everyone has a personal world, which obviously alludes to landscapes.

 

[DarkGrath]

Ah, sorry. Missed that post.

 

[Antvasima]

So tiring, I just want Ultima to approve this so we can close this, I’m tired of answering the same questions, truthfully.

@Ultima_Reality

We would greatly appreciate your input here.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

For Ultima, when he gets here.

Adding this for @Ultima_Reality
P5 Crew watches a trailer of one of the realities with its own cinematic opening and narration
13:45-15:47

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If Ultima doesn’t come by the end of the day can we please apply this? This has been going on for months, we’ve gotten mod & member support with few disagreements, and it just feels like we’re doing nothing.

 

[Bobsican]

If Ultima had an strong disagreement, he would have said so by now, and even then he could just do a CRT in the future at this point, so I think that to remain up to date with the statistics it is a good idea to move forward into applying it.
I also went ahead and notified Ultima Reality directly on his message wall over this thread.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm guessing you people don't know but Ultima has been dealing with some serious irl issues that aren't exactly my place to share here.

Move on with the CRT or whatever but please have some courtesy.

Anyway ehh I disagree with some of the points made mostly in the form of certain scans being taken out of context but none of my issues are with things that directly affect Low 1-C so I'm more neutral in this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm guessing you people don't know but Ultima has been dealing with some serious irl issues that aren't exactly my place to share here.

Move on with the CRT or whatever but please have some courtesy.

I thought they were cleared up? He mentioned his irl situation, gave him couple days, brought it up again, said he was busy, then waited done more, then he said he was free. I didn’t know he was still going through it. I’m willing to wait, if that’s the case.

Not even going to address taken out of context anymore, if that’s your interpretation of it, fine.

 

[Edwellken]

Respectable. Having different opinions is fine.

I do want to clarify that I didn't mean to accuse anyone of anything malicious however so sorry if it came off that way.

 

[Antvasima]

I did not know that Ultima has serious real world problems to deal with. I suppose that we can probably wait a bit longer then.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Anyway ehh I disagree with some of the points made mostly in the form of certain scans being taken out of context but none of my issues are with things that directly affect Low 1-C so I'm more neutral in this.

Do you wish to elaborate on any of these points? I remember you stated that you agreed with Matt in general, so if you are subscribing to his counter-arguments I believe I provided enough context and arguments that displayed his points were invalid. I am willing to discuss this further since we'll probably be waiting a solid more amount of time.

 

[Edwellken]

Not really, no. Like I said they weren't relevant to the actual topic being discussed here from what I gather and thus any discussion would just be derailment. If/when I have enough of a problem with anything I'll just make my own CRT.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Not really, no. Like I said they weren't relevant to the actual topic being discussed here from what I gather and thus any discussion would just be derailment. If/when I have enough of a problem with anything I'll just make my own CRT.

Sounds good. Thanks for dropping by with the update on Ultima.

 

[Rustobal10]

I strongly agree with this since I've played every Persona game and the CU was shown containing every physical, mental, and other realms of layers becoming more extradimensional. Does this mean Makoto Yuki can be alive?

 

[DarkGrath]

That's an interesting question, but not particularly relevant to the thread. And in mind with how this thread has dwindled with activity despite its importance, it's best that unimportant questions were left for later.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

Please help us out here when you find the time and your real world problems have turned more manageable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I missed my pings here.

 

[Antvasima]

You should bookmark these two pages to properly keep track of all your notifications:

https://vsbattles.com/watched/threads

https://vsbattles.com/account/alerts?skip_mark_read=1&show_only=unread

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Light played from films (Akashic Record) is literal cosmos
23:55 - 24:26
P5 Crew legit watches a trailer of one of the realities with it's own cinematic opening and narration
13:45-15:47

Yeah, these two tidbits in particular are enough to convince me of Low 1-C. I was initially a bit reserved when it came to the idea of treating Enlil's Akashic Records as holding a literal reality-fiction transcendence over the realities it contains, given how they are described as formed from memories, at one point, but the fact that they seem to be portrayed as very much physical and capable of being accessed by the main cast is a good enough counterpoint to me.

Although, I don't really agree with saying that the deeper parts of the Collective Unconscious (Like the Kadath Mandala) are transcendent over the "shallower" levels such as the Velvet Room and Enlil's Theater. The hierarchy of the CU seems to be largely ordered in terms of how "basic" certain parts of the collective psyche are, and how they serve as fundamental patterns of observation through which more elaborate concepts can be formed.

The issue is mostly that being more basic and abstract than certain structures is way too vague to be used as evidence for infinite superiority, especially given how this refers to abstractions of the mind, as I said above. It could definitely be used as a piece of supporting evidence, but it doesn't really work as the main body of the argument. You'll need something way more concrete than that.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. What Ultima has accepted can probably be applied.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Fantastic.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Yoooo, glad this is all going great!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This can now be closed, as Ultima now agrees with Low 1-C, and Immeasurable Speed (over Discord).

 

[Bobsican]

This can now be closed, as Ultima now agrees with Low 1-C, and Immeasurable Speed (over Discord).

Uhh, I would wait for the edits being done first.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It’ll take a long while.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, I don't think it should be closed until the edits are made. If we can confirm exactly what edits need to be made to which profiles, and we then apply those changes, it should be fine to close this.