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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition

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Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
What’s the scaling?
Click to expand...
We still have to discuss the ramifications of Kadath and Philemon's realms. Igor confirmed that "kadath is one level shallower" than Philemon's plane, proving they have levels (Also supported by Phil and Nyar using avatars when on lower planes). And Kadath itself we know is its own planes a step above pretty much everything else.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
We still have to discuss the ramifications of Kadath and Philemon's realms. Igor confirmed that "kadath is one level shallower" than Philemon's plane, proving they have levels (Also supported by Phil and Nyar using avatars when on lower planes). And Kadath itself we know is its own planes a step above pretty much everything else.
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Do you mean like dimensional stuff, like 6-D, 7-D, etc?
 
Okay. We will wait a little while longer for Matthew, but I agree that we cannot stall much more at all.
 
Oh nice to see Matt here and knowing he can comment one last time. Anyways, I was gonna say I may ask someone on another server to bring up any counters to what Whiteee said, but it's nice knowing Matt's back on the line.
 
I am replying to the three relevant posts which Whitee outlined in this post of his:


This is a lot of stuff for me to reply so this may end up big, but I'll try to not get too rambly.

First Post:

The first post is a long explanation of Jungian Psychology and how it relates to Persona, I obviously don't disagree with its relationship with the franchise, although as a rule of thumb I always prefer to go by what is said in the actual series itself than to look at outside influence for guidence. That being said, the explanations do come with many scans to substantiate the claims.

On the nature of the Collective Unconscious and its ability to create space-time, and that several realities and dimensions - countless in fact - exist in the Collective Unconscious, I don't have any objections. The statements are very direct. Here's some more. I do, however, have a problem with the assessement that the amount of universes is infinite. The two statements that are being used to justify this are quite random, and neither of them are talking about worlds in the Collective Unconscious:

1. The first of the two states that the world has "endless landcapes and innumerable faces". This is obviously metaphorical language, and in particular is talking about the specific faces and landcapes of the people of Earth, all of whom have their own consciousness and faces that they show society and hide to themselves. It is not a valid argument for 2-A.
2. The second is frankly worse, it talks about an "endless cycle of creation and destruction", which does not confirm the existence of infinite universes in the slightest. The description without context could simply be talking about an endless cycle of violence, or a single world that is created, destroyed and created again in a cycle that goes on forever. This is not 2-A, not in the slightest.

As such I do not support the assertion that the Collective Unconscious contains infinite universes, not based on these posts.

In regards to the Collective Unconscious being described as a great interconected network which makes up the the foundation of the mind, which is also the basis of everyone's souls, again I have no objection. I appreciate the effort to explain the Cosmology of Persona with souls but the abstract, mental nature of the Collective Unconscious is frankly not evidence for the type of tiering that is being suggested here. Namely Low 1-C. Indeed, you are looking at something that exists outside of physical reality, but that is not grounds for justifying transcendence. Neither is it lying outside of space-time, as that is very obviously referring to the Collective Unconscious existing outside of the physical world of conscious beings. It is not necessarily Tier 1 nor would it give you any Tier 2 rating on its own. So far the Collective Unconscious is looking like an "At least 2-B" structure at best.

And no, the Collective Unconscious existing on a level deeper than the Velvet Room is not evidence that it transcends it on an infinite scale, because the same arguments that Whitee uses for a Low 1-C Collective Unconscious also apply to the Velvet Room, which exists outside of space-time and the physical world, being the bridge between the self and the unconscious, the most shallow layer of the Collective Unconscious. Metaphors of depth are very apt, because the deeper you dive into unconscious the more abstract this unconsciousness becomes. This is entirely related to Geometrical Dimensional Tiering, people who practice Transcedental Meditation in real life claim to be able to achieve a state of abstract unconsciousness, in a process that is entirely non-physical.

That is not to say that the Collective Unconscious isn't a real place in Persona, even if it isn't physical, but as the Velvet Room is part of the wider Collective Unconscious you can't use the argument that levels of the Collective Unconscious existing at a deeper / more abstract level than the Velvet Room imply that they are infinitely above them on a dimensional geometric tiering basis. Vague statements of something being deeper or more abstract than something else does not justify Aleph Cardinals.

The statements explaining Cognition are all true. There is no objection there. Onto the next point.

At the deepest level of the Collective Unconscious lie what are called the "Archetypes", abstract forms that form the basis of all thought and conciousness, that allow the mind to function. This neat diagram shows them existing at the lowest level of unconciousness. However, there is nothing proving they are infinite in number: The statement being used merely refers to a character speculating about there being an endless number of Archetypes. He says, and I quote:

"There are, in theory, limitless archetypes, and Jung names some of them."

So not only is the character is admitting that this is theoretical speculation, but he is also talking about Jungian Theory and not even the Collective Unconscious that you actually go to in Persona. Both are related, but this is literally a character speculating based on the theories of a real psychanalist. He mentions infinite archetypes later again, but as part of the same in-character conversation that are based on Jung's theory, and not a confirmed fact.

Finally, let's talk about the Kadath Mandala, the deepest level of the Collective Unconscious, where the Archetypes are contained and created. Disregarding the fact that I still have no primary source from where these Pastebin Screenshots are coming from (I know they are from a Fan Translation of Persona 2 material, but I'd at least like an original source linking these, rather than just screens), let's look at what the images themselves say.

The Kadath is the place where Personas sleep, and it is the uppermost level of the "abyss" where Philemon and Nyarlathotep exist, so right of the bat it is established as the deepst level of the Collective Unconscious, that much is clear. It embodies the world of the divine and is divided into six emotions. The concepts and archetypes that make one's existence are contained in the Kadath. All this is valid, but there is once again the same problem as before:

All of this doesn't justify Low 1-C. Though the Collective Unconscious is vast, transcendent over space and time, containing countless universes and worlds shaped by the individual minds of each living being in the conscious world, and is itself abstract and conceptual, with the lowest level of the Kadath holding the very archetypal concepts which form reality, that doesn't justify Low 1-C on its own. Not directly. The Tiering System requires robust evidence for transcendence and existence on an infinite level than the Tier beneath, and I don't believe these match the requirements. However, more will be talked about the Kadath in the final post, so I'll leave it up there.

Second Post:

The second post is thankfully much smaller, and it talks about the Akashic Records from Persona Q, this time with video. So let's look at the evidence presented.

The Akashic Records, as explained in Whitee's and mine own previous posts, is a structure that contains all memories, events and possibilities. Enlil can manipulate the Akashic Records to alter the physical world by rewriting the content, and the process is shown as rolls of film containing events in time.

However, this doesn't make it Low 1-C on its own much less shown transcendence of Enlin over the Akashic Records itself. The Akashic Records isn't film in her hand because its fiction from her perspective, rather it is film because it records and projects the physical world below like film. The metaphor for the representation is clear, and its not a matter of reality-fiction transcendence over reality, its just one of literal film recording and editing.

Unfortunately, I am unable to respond to the two below points:

1. The light projecting from the Akashic Record being literal cosmos
2. Existence trivialized by Enlil in her realm.

Because Whitee forgot to give timeframe to those videos and I'm left with two hours of footage to search through. If he wishes to clarify the timeframes, I can answer later, but I don't think my view of the Akashic Records will change, I explained them here before.


Third Post:

Finally, we have the Third and Last post, which is clarification on the Kadath Mandala from the first post. It is true that Philemon and Nyarlathotep exist on a level deeper than the Kadath Mandala, the statements are clear. However I do not believe that this implies "ontological" transcendence of Philemon and Nyarlathotep over the Collective Unconscious, because first and foremost:

1. As far as I understand it, they are embodiments of the Collective Unconscious themselves, they ARE the Collective Unconscious and thus cannot transcend themselves.
2. The Kadath Mandala is the deepest part of the Collective Unconscious, but still only a part, it makes sense that the abstractions of the CU's totality would be deeper than a part of themselves.

But, also:

1. When weakened, Philemon is unable to access the Kadath Mandala. This shows to me that him existing on a level even deeper than the Kadath's abyss doesn't mean that his power is supremely transcendent over the structure, and he can be weakened and have an existencial risk accessing it when not at his peak. The power of Philemon at his peak is greater than the Kadath, but not infinitely greater to justify an even higher tier.

This is simply it, I don't think the Kadath Mandala justifies Low 1-C Collective Unconscious, even now.

I hope this was all comprehensive and helpful.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
2. The second is frankly worse, it talks about an "endless cycle of creation and destruction", which does not confirm the existence of infinite universes in the slightest. The description without context could simply be talking about an endless cycle of violence, or a single world that is created, destroyed and created again in a cycle that goes on forever. This is not 2-A, not in the slightest.
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I have to agree with this here, we have far better scans of 2-A, I’m not sure why this was used.
 
@Matthew_Schroeder
1. The first of the two states that the world has "endless landcapes and innumerable faces". This is obviously metaphorical language, and in particular is talking about the specific faces and landcapes of the people of Earth, all of whom have their own consciousness and faces that they show society and hide to themselves. It is not a valid argument for 2-A.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. I already explained to you how this interpretation is incorrect. The context of this scene is Elizabeth traveling through the Collective Unconscious and essentially giving the audience a "hitchiker's guide to everything" as she makes her way to where Nyx is sealed off. This description directly proceeds from the scan I just links meaning she is referring to the CU and it's infinite "landscapes and faces". Throughout her time she gives us multiple facts about the CU (existed before man and the evolutionary ladder, it's deepest places being one containing the light of life and darkness of death, etc.)The "faces" and "landscapes" she is referring to are the various worlds that exist in the CU, both physical and mental. This is what populates the CU. She is in no way even remotely referring to the faces and landscapes of people of earth. There is literally no way you can draw this conclusion from the quotes in context. "This place" is about the CU not Earth. Earth is not even remotely being referenced, the whole dialogue is about the CU at large, and we are nowhere even remotely or contextually (in the dialogue) regarding Earth as a subject to which she is speaking on. Until she teleports Erebus to the moon to beat his ass and we are directly shown this happening and see Earth as the change of scenery.

As for the "metaphorical" stuff that is on you to prove. She is literally giving us objective exposition on the CU. While you can say the descriptors (i.e Faces and landscapes, and not really even the latter) are "flowery", that has nothing to do with the words being used to describe them (ie. innumerable and endless) which are objective descriptions of the quantity of what she is describing. So this argument falls extremely short here, and in light of the obvious misinterpretation of the subject matter at hand here, makes it wholly invalid.

2. The second is frankly worse, it talks about an "endless cycle of creation and destruction", which does not confirm the existence of infinite universes in the slightest. The description without context could simply be talking about an endless cycle of violence, or a single world that is created, destroyed and created again in a cycle that goes on forever. This is not 2-A, not in the slightest.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why you keep taking things out of their context to read them. Of course those things could "theoretically" apply, but that isn't at all what Enlil is referring to. The whole game centers around Enlil being able to control creation via the akashic record, and trap the innumerable souls of creations inside of her dream realm. Given the above we know the CU to be an entity holding infinite worlds (and we can use countless here for you since we haven't agreed on that yet.). In the context of Enlil, an entity trapping souls in false realities because she deems all humans to want such, she is clearly referring to creation existing in an endless reincarnation cycle. Meaning the CU contains countless to infinite space-times which are constantly being destroyed and regenerated.

Here Enlil discusses her context calling humans weak for believing in "possibilities" (a blatant reference to the Akashic Records) as delusions opposing providence. This is why she states humans learn nothing from the endless cycle of birth and destruction.

And I know you clearly understand the underlying point given you are clearly knowledgeable about SMT, and it's literally the same thing Kagatsuchi has administration over in that verse.

That is not to say that the Collective Unconscious isn't a real place in Persona, even if it isn't physical, but as the Velvet Room is part of the wider Collective Unconscious you can't use the argument that levels of the Collective Unconscious existing at a deeper / more abstract level than the Velvet Room imply that they are infinitely above them on a dimensional geometric tiering basis. Vague statements of something being deeper or more abstract than something else does not justify Aleph Cardinals.
Click to expand...
I think the issue here is that in Persona physical reality is a byproduct of cognition. Mental energy/constructs are inherently ontologically superior to the physical realm, as physical realms are dependant upon the mental energy/constructs to exist and were created from them. They are closer to the origin of reality than physical reality by literal leaps and bounds.

Also just in case you forgot, I was arguing that Velvet Room to be extradimensional, not higher dimensional.

At the deepest level of the Collective Unconscious lie what are called the "Archetypes", abstract forms that form the basis of all thought and conciousness, that allow the mind to function. This neat diagram shows them existing at the lowest level of unconciousness. However, there is nothing proving they are infinite in number: The statement being used merely refers to a character speculating about there being an endless number of Archetypes. He says, and I quote:

"There are, in theory, limitless archetypes, and Jung names some of them."
Click to expand...
So not only is the character is admitting that this is theoretical speculation, but he is also talking about Jungian Theory and not even the Collective Unconscious that you actually go to in Persona. Both are related, but this is literally a character speculating based on the theories of a real psychanalist. He mentions infinite archetypes later again, but as part of the same in-character conversation that are based on Jung's theory, and not a confirmed fact.
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This post highlights some fundamental aspects of persona that you don't seem to be fully brushed up on. The archetypes are infinite in number. The prof uses "in theory" because there is no set number. An archetype is literally just a pattern of recognition. So there is an archetype that exists for everything that can be comprehended in the persona universe (hence the facilitation of cognition). To put a cap on the number would be outside the scope of both himself and Jung as they obviously both never experienced the totality of all combined patterns of recognition.
The second quote also goes against the spirit of your first argument and you didn't quote that one.
There he says
"of the infinite archetypes" asserting that there are indeed, infinite archetypes.

Yes, and Persona is based upon the history of our real world. So when he is speaking about Carl Jung, he is doing so from the standpoint of Carl Jung that lived in the persona universe. His whole character is based upon an occultist who teaches the kids about the nature of reality through the lens of his class. And Carl Jung himself is literally a near god tier character in Persona, who himself traveled the collective unconscious and wrote down his musings in the real world. Philemon followed Carl Jung as he did this and wrote down what Carl Jung observed (called the gate of eternity or Red Book), and his observations were so poignant that the book (and its opposite Black Book) is strong enough to literally be comparable to philemon and nyarlathotep themselves.

(Also before it potentially becomes a thing the Persona 2: Tsumi to Batsu manga was specifically made to be canon to the P2 timeline and Atlus made the story for, sent in to hype up Persona 2 w/a parallel storyline for Shonen Jump. Existing in the same area as Persona 2 with exact locations like the Shrine, and characters such as Katsuya from Persona 2 making cameos)

Finally, let's talk about the Kadath Mandala, the deepest level of the Collective Unconscious, where the Archetypes are contained and created. Disregarding the fact that I still have no primary source from where these Pastebin Screenshots are coming from (I know they are from a Fan Translation of Persona 2 material, but I'd at least like an original source linking these, rather than just screens), let's look at what the images themselves say.
Click to expand...
The pastebin translations have been largely ignored ever since we found a much better and more reliable translation of the game which can be found here.
p2px-scenario.tumblr.com

P2X New Scenario Translation

This is the translation page for the new scenario included with the PSP port of Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, which did not make its ways overseas. This project intends to translate the text in the...
p2px-scenario.tumblr.com p2px-scenario.tumblr.com

The Kadath is the place where Personas sleep, and it is the uppermost level of the "abyss" where Philemon and Nyarlathotep exist, so right of the bat it is established as the deepst level of the Collective Unconscious, that much is clear. It embodies the world of the divine and is divided into six emotions. The concepts and archetypes that make one's existence are contained in the Kadath. All this is valid, but there is once again the same problem as before:
Click to expand...
You seem to have already gotten to the third post where it is stated that philemon and nyar are on a level above so we can skip this.

However, this doesn't make it Low 1-C on its own much less shown transcendence of Enlin over the Akashic Records itself. The Akashic Records isn't film in her hand because its fiction from her perspective, rather it is film because it records and projects the physical world below like film. The metaphor for the representation is clear, and its not a matter of reality-fiction transcendence over reality, its just one of literal film recording and editing.
Click to expand...

No this is incorrect. The akashic records is all of creation being housed in the medium of film. The theatre has nothing to do with the record, that is Enlil's realm that she created. Not only is all of creation treated as mere film that can be projected like light and show comsos are literally flat in the video, but it's also projected onto a flat surface, existence behind said surface being another realm of 4-D dimensions. So yes existing in a realm and creating the apparatus that can play and project all of creation as if it were film 100% qualifies for Low 1-C. Let's take a look at another justification on the wiki: Akashic Records


Low Complex Multiverse level (Governs over infinite possibilities within creation which contains multiple universes, with each one of it being inside the records, its own realm transcends said possibilities, seeing them as fiction or in the pages of a book)
Click to expand...
Which is the exact same thing Enlil does by her own power, in her own realm, where she can project the records as if it were film in a projector. Which is why you can have a reality where Kamoshida is literally superman.

1. The light projecting from the Akashic Record being literal cosmos
2. Existence trivialized by Enlil in her realm.

Because Whitee forgot to give timeframe to those videos and I'm left with two hours of footage to search through. If he wishes to clarify the timeframes, I can answer later, but I don't think my view of the Akashic Records will change, I explained them here before.
Click to expand...
A.) I'm fairly certain that I timestamped those videos at relevant points, with two of the videos being posted as separate entities despite being only minutes apart game wise, for your leisure.
B.) I'm not really sure how you could make the above statements about Enlil, the akashic record, or how here trivialization doesn't fit our standards when not only have you misinterpreted her feats from what you know, but are now admitting to not even watching the feat. That pretty much invalidates the whole above section of your post.
Here are the timestamped videos again.
Editing the film as a direct effect on the lower realities


The four-dimensional realities exist within a projection of light onto a flat surface


Said light being shown to be literal cosmos coming from the akashic records, appearing spatially flat and infinitesimal compared to the theatre reality.


1. As far as I understand it, they are embodiments of the Collective Unconscious themselves, they ARE the Collective Unconscious and thus cannot transcend themselves.
2. The Kadath Mandala is the deepest part of the Collective Unconscious, but still only a part, it makes sense that the abstractions of the CU's totality would be deeper than a part of themselves.
Click to expand...
The collective unconscious is all of existence Matt. They don't transcend the entirety of the collective unconscious. They simply exist at the deepest layer, while also encompassing everything below it. For example, physical reality in persona is a subset of the collective unconscious. Yet it is clearly transcended by all abstractions, and evidently by Enlil's Realm. By your logic physical reality can't be transcended because it is also a subset of the CU.
The CU very clearly has several stratums of ontological existence, these existences being "layered" by level of abstractness (because in Persona cognition/archetypes rule over existence and created spacetime as a subset of themselves.). The CU encompasses all of reality yet clearly has parts that trasscends others. For instance, Shub-Niggurath (who exists as a demon inside Kadath) is mentioned as "ripping through dimensions" in order to get to the real world via Kadath. Phil and Nyar scale to the deepest level, which not only transcends physical reality, but realms like Enlil's ( low 1-C), and even the Kadath (infinite realm of concepts transcending others). Giving us several "levels" (as referred to by Igor) of ontological existence.

1. When weakened, Philemon is unable to access the Kadath Mandala. This shows to me that him existing on a level even deeper than the Kadath's abyss doesn't mean that his power is supremely transcendent over the structure, and he can be weakened and have an existencial risk accessing it when not at his peak. The power of Philemon at his peak is greater than the Kadath, but not infinitely greater to justify an even higher tier.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Philemon himself has access (philemon only interacts with lower planes via avatars, the butterfly for physical realms, and Nodens for Kadath Mandala) as he is literally in said realm all of the time. What he could not do was allow Tatsuya and Co to enter the realm themselves. Which is once again attributed to him being weakened and further highlighted by Igor telling the group that his opposite half could easily let them in if he wanted. The fact that Phil and Nyar rule over/protect Kadath as some of the strongest demons in the place via avatars, should tell you all you need to know about how much they transcend the place.
 
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I'll wait a bit more.... I guess in the end, what the majority is up with, I'll lean with in the end. Will be looking forward to what happens for the future though.
 
I mean at this point it's probably best to just move to voting. Waiting several more days for a possibility of you posting will only further stall the thread. I believe I have demonstrated your points to be invalid/out of contexts, and to be fair, you have yet to even watch the feat which is arguably the most important aspect of the scaling. The feat demonstrably fits the criteria for Low 1-C as I have demonstrated as well (and to which Ultima concurred with when I spoke to him), so things may go along faster if you want to check the feat out and give your thoughts now that I've timestamped.

But I have no intention of conceding the above points I posted to your latest posts. So this thread will no doubt keep dragging if kept at a similar pace.
 
At this point we should just over Enlil, since if she scales, then so does the CU, so there’s no need to cover both, just the Akashic Records & Enlil.
 
I think that we should wait for Matthew a final time. After that I can ask some staff members to help us out with evaluations.
 
Okay. I am sorry about that. I just want to make sure that we do not apply unreliable statistics.
 
Unreliable is a very pointless term, I’ve come to believe. With so many different people, with so many different minds, and so many different conclusions, all we can assume is we’ve gotten approximately as close to objectively as possible.

Remember, the sun rotating around the earth used to be the reality we lived in, we now know that’s false.
 
Well, we still have to try to properly logically evaluate these issues as a safeguard.

The Sun revolving around the Earth was disproven via mathematics and verifiable data though, and we do not have as convenient measurements available.
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
Well, reading through all of that multiple times over the course of a couple days has given me a headache. But I think I have a grasp on the current arguments being presented.

In it's current state, I agree with Dr Whitee. I'm probably not the single most reliable staff member when it comes to evaluating dimensional tiering, but from the standards I do understand, I fully believe that the current evidence being presented should offer enough justification for Low 1-C.

I should note on top of this that some of the referencing seems to be a bit disorganised, and a few people have semi-noted this already; certain sources are given without context, without proper timestamping, or are generally excessive and unnecessary for the exact point being made. It'd be good if these could be organised better if further arguments need to be made.
 
DarkGrath said:
Well, reading through all of that multiple times over the course of a couple days has given me a headache. But I think I have a grasp on the current arguments being presented.

In it's current state, I agree with Dr Whitee. I'm probably not the single most reliable staff member when it comes to evaluating dimensional tiering, but from the standards I do understand, I fully believe that the current evidence being presented should offer enough justification for Low 1-C.

I should note on top of this that some of the referencing seems to be a bit disorganised, and a few people have semi-noted this already; certain sources are given without context, without proper timestamping, or are generally excessive and unnecessary for the exact point being made. It'd be good if these could be organised better if further arguments need to be made.
Click to expand...
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Please let me know if there are any things you are ify on. I understand the initial blog was not as informative as it needed to be. As current leader of this project I can provide necessary scans for anything you are a bit wary of.
 
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