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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition

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Milly_Rocking_Bandit

Milly_Rocking_Bandit

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This is a duet effort of me, and @Dr._whiteee, so props to him, and @Starversal for the scans in imgur. Anyways, let's just get into the information.

This is the justification for Low 1-C cosmology, and Immeasurable speed. In turn, all 2-B keys will now be Low 1-C, and all keys will be Immeasurable in speed.

This is the updated Cognition page.

I'll also note that I had several mods review the cosmology prior to posting, such as DDM, DMUA, Firestorm, and Grath, all who seem to be okay with the revisions.

As for Cognition, several Persona supporters looked it over, but feel free to put any input you'd like.
 
Rikimarox2 said:
The normal revisions was a massive shitstorm, can't imagine this being a fun thread.
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Part 2 was pretty smooth, basically Part 3 is proving it's 5-D. Everything else was pretty much already accepted, so all 2-B keys will be Low 1-C. Regardless, I would like if input was given on this.
 
So CU is the dimension that lies transcendent to Time and Space in a higher plane while governing all of Space and Time as well as all the aspects. Yeah seems good imo.
 
While I'm not a knowledgable person on the Persona series, the sheer amount of evidence makes it seem pretty clear that Persona is Tier 1. Heck, you could probably argue they're higher than Low 1-C due to realms in the CU being "deeper" than the Velvet Room; though, that could be stretching it.

And, Jesus Christ, that Cognition page! Are you trying to make Persona into BlazBlue?! Jokes aside, I agree with it.



So Persona unironically stomps a lot of SMT characters now (until SMT gets upgraded).

Also, Persona vs Xenoblade can happen now if and/or when this and Tier 1 Xenoblade upgrades go through.
 
Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete said:
While I'm not a knowledgable person on the Persona series, the sheer amount of evidence makes it seem pretty clear that Persona is Tier 1. Heck, you could probably argue they're higher than Low 1-C due to realms in the CU being "deeper" than the Velvet Room; though, that could be stretching it.

And, Jesus Christ, that Cognition page! Are you trying to make Persona into BlazBlue?! Jokes aside, I agree with it.



So Persona unironically stomps a lot of SMT characters now (until SMT gets upgraded).

Also, Persona vs Xenoblade can happen now if and/or when this and Tier 1 Xenoblade upgrades go through.
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Haha, funny enough Whitee actually believes that due to it being "deeper", though 5-D is my limit. I have made a lot of high-balls in this verse (2-B, Conceptual Attacks, Low 1-C), but even I have my limits.

Persona vs Blazblue might be a whole new debate within itself, Cognition vs Phenomena Intervention is certainly something I'd love to see, especially since me and Glass will be making Yu Narukami vs Ragna as soon as this gets accepted.

Not necessarily, Persona still loses to SMTIVA & DeSu2, but yeah SMT is in desperate need of upgrades, something I might tackle solo.

Shulk vs Joker for the strongest protag might be possible, who knows.
 
RM97 said:
Exactly how far they would be into 5D?
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We're still working that out. The basis is, and the lowest lowball (since we've all avoided this conversation), for how many cognitive worlds there are, there will be the same amount of physical worlds to compensate. The CU is stated to hold infinite Jack Frosts (each one created by the human mind, as all Shadow's and Persona's are), and the CU is stated to be endless. So, right now, infinite^infinite.
 
Yup this is just an unsubtle way of getting Persona to eventually reach the same level of BS as SMT muhahaha!!!

My snark aside I agree the cosmology is low 1-C from my PoV, I'm indifferent to immeasurable speed since the standards are currently in flux but overall the evidence looks pretty on the wall.

Good job Milly, Dr.Whiteee and Starversal!
 
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The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Yup this is just an unsubtle way of getting Persona to eventually reach the same level of BS as SMT muhahaha!!!

My snark aside I agree the cosmology is low 1-C from my PoV, I'm indifferent to immeasurable speed since the standards are currently in flux but overall the evidence looks pretty on the wall.

Good job Milky, Dr.Whiteee and Starversal!
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They are made from the same company, so it being comparable to it's brother series is not unrealisitc. Persona, however, takes a more human approach with the presence of feats, requiring more of a scrutinizing eye, amongst the constant school life, social links, and deeper life lessons, so it's easy to see why one might overlook them. Sorry for the tangent, just my though.

Also, it's Milly, but thanks, means a lot.
 
Ah shit we using Twin Peaks scaling? Lmao

Jokes aside i'll read further into it when I get the chance, the part that mentions the black lodge was a bit funny to me though.
 
Well... I went ahead and gave it a read. Though I am abit skeptical as to the use of Parvati's quote (Parvati in Mythology is known to be an incarnation of Parashakti which splits into multiple aspects such as Durga, Lakshmi, Kali Ma, etc.) so I wouldn't necessarily equate that to being CU related.

As for alot of the other stuff, I have to say I agree with Low 1-C for now.
 
AogiriKira said:
Well... I went ahead and gave it a read. Though I am abit skeptical as to the use of Parvati's quote (Parvati in Mythology is known to be an incarnation of Parashakti which splits into multiple aspects such as Durga, Lakshmi, Kali Ma, etc.) so I wouldn't necessarily equate that to being CU related.

As for alot of the other stuff, I have to say I agree with Low 1-C for now.
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That's true, but in Persona, everything is based on idealism. So every incarnation of Parvati is made from human minds.
 
I would just like it to be on record that this was not my idea, nor was I in any way involved in the making of this CRT save for clarifying certain minor details. I take no responsibility for the shitstorm that's about to or has already erupted, and if this successfully goes through, I take none of the credit.
 
I will go ovr why but this is extremely subjective and it uses a bunch of unconnected scans to argue stuff above what something truly is...
 
1. A statement of Kaneko saying that the Velvet Room was inspired by the Black Lodge, which he describes as a "dreamy extradimensional place" isn't evidence of anything, and certainly not higher-dimensional tiering. It's only Kaneko conveying his impression of the Black Lodge from Twin Peaks. Likewise, Philemon existing in a different plane of existence isn't evidence of higher-dimensional status either. Something can be from a higher plane and not be infinitely higher.

2. The Collective Unconscious being "even more abstract" than the Velvet Room isn't evidence that it is infinitely higher either. This is talking about abstractions in the mind and not physical realms. Likewise, the statement that the power of the Collective Unconscious created space is referring to the physical universe, it's not evidence of transcendence.

3. The ending of Persona 5 (Which is its own set of scans) isn't evidence for a higher-dimensional Collective Unconscious either, it's just stating that the Real World is subjective and shaped by the beliefs and ideas of people.

4. The existence of multiple universes and the Velvet Room acting as a nexus between them isn't proof that it is higher-dimensional either. People in general seem to have the misconception that if something is in-between universes it must be higher-dimensional and therefore infinitely greater when neither is the case.

5. The statements that the concept of time doesn't exist in the Velvet Room isn't proof of higher-dimensional status either, a place can exist outside of time independently of its size. The Velvet Room certainly isn't infinite in size, in fact it is described as a "floating island" within the Collective Unconscious. Time doesn't exist in it, but that doesn't make it higher-dimensional.

6. The scans that prove that the Collective Unconscious connects to all worlds is nice and all, but it doesn't prove a Low 1-C level of existence, and neither does time or space not existing in it. Theodore's statement is a little better, but I don't think it confirms that the Collective Unconscious is higher-dimensional in relation to the Velvet Room, rather the analogy being used is really that of a Sea, as it always is, with the Velvet Room being merely an island in that sea which does not begin to convey how deep the ocean of consciousness truly goes. You can have the Collective Unconscious exist in a "deeper, more abstract" level than the Velvet Room without it being infinitely higher.

7. The statement about time being distorted in Tartarus, as well as the statements about how the impossible becomes possible doesn't prove anything either. I"m sorry but I'm starting to become concerned with the validity of this upgrade, because all you do is present an exhausting amount of redundant scans to try and argue something that neither of them say.

To reiterate, something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes.

8. I have a severe issue with your reading of the Kadath Mandala scan - and that goes beyond the fact that it's a tiny Discord Screenshot for ants of an unsourced translation - No, my problem is material, I don't think it says what it does. You say that it contains both the Macrocosmos and the Microcosmos, when the scan merely states that it is a Hexagram containing the Macrocosmos with the Pentagram representing the Microcosmos inside it. This is basic Thelemic Magic, where you have a Hexagram representing the universe (The Macrocosmos) and a Pentagram inside it representing man (The Microcosmos). The Kadath Mandala isn't above both the Macrocosmos and the Microcosmos, it is merely the hexagram symbol that has both. This isn't because it's "infinitely larger than both" but simply because it's both.

On the size of the Collective Unconscious' worlds:

9. The existence of a specific Cognitive World for every human is not evidence of infinite universes. The statement that there are countless bubbles also doesn't prove anything, beyond the fact that each mind has their own consciousness reflected as a world within the Collective Unconscious. The Akashic Record Scans state that it records "all possibility", yes, but this is clearly in reference to all minds and all memories, not an infinite number of parallel universes. Something encompassing "all possibility" isn't evidence of infinite universes either.

10. Now for the part of the Blog I find the most insulting: The usage of Persona Quotes and COmpendiums.

As stated innumerable times before, Personas aren't literally the Demons they represent but merely take the form and personality of one, their own statements are not valid to be taken literally. And so many of them are out of context it hurts... To start:

10-A. Parvarti stating that she is "one of the many forms" is referring to the many forms of the Hindu Goddess that she represents, with Sati, Parvati herself, Kali, Durga, etc. Hell, in some forms of Hinduism Parvati has ten different forms. This is not a statement about parallel versions of Parvati in different universes, I'm sorry.

10-B. Ouroboros is a symbol of infinity, being the snake biting its own tail. It's not literally infinite, neither in power nor physical size. It's existence doesn't prove infinite universes either. In Shin Megami Tensei proper, the existence of the Ouroboros Demon proving 2-A power because "Lol it's infinity and eternal" is also not a great argument and has been rejected. YOu can't get from Low 2-C to 2-A just by throwing an infinite multiplier into the mixer. And since we're here, Shesha's name meaning "Infinite" is not evidence of 2-A either. In Mytholoy, Shesha contains is described as infinite because it contains one universe over its scales, not an infinite amount. And again, this is a Persona that represents Shesha, not the literal deity Shesha itself.

10-C. Brahma's statements that the Atman (The soul) is equal to Brahman (God), or that the Microcosmos and the Macrocosmos are one and the same isn't much new evidence either, it's just another among the countless statements in Persona about how consciousness and reality are one and the same. I don't see why it's used to prove anything.

10-D. The statement that King Frost "rules over an infinite number of Jack Frosts" is plain hyperbole. It exists in Shin Megami Tensei proper where we actually meet and fight King Frost in more than one game. He is made of several Jack Frosts fused together but he is not literally physically infinite, in fact he can comfortably fit in a forest. Hell, he's only a few times larger than normal people. King Frost is not infinite nor is the amount of Jack Frosts that he rules over literally infinite.

And even if they were this would only prove High 3-A at most Not Low 2-C, not 2-A, and certainly not Low 1-C.

11. And speaking of Hyperbole, Yaldabaoth's statement is blatantly hyperbolic as well. The "infinite masses" that it is reffering to in this context are the people on Earth. Not a literal infinite number of people giving praise to the Holy Grail. It is metaphorical language that is not to be taken literally.

Also this is irrelevant I think but I don't believe Lucifer is saying Joker transcended the Collective Unconscious, rather he is saying that Joker has gone beyond the limitations of his own heart and consciousness, his own bleak circumstances over the course of his journey. The statement isn't literal.

I hope this helps, I am vehemently against the upgrade to Low 1-C for the reasons I hope to have made clear. Absolutely nothing in the blog proves Low 1-C to begin with.
 
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