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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition

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Well, I don't think it should be closed until the edits are made. If we can confirm exactly what edits need to be made to which profiles, and we then apply those changes, it should be fine to close this.
All 2-B keys are to be removed and changed with Low 1-C, via the justification of Enlil, and by proxy, the greater CU.

All Speed keys are now Immeasurable due to Archetypes making up and being the physical manifestation of the Collective Unconscious, which transcends space and time, and our cast is able to keep up with the most basic Archetype - the Shadow.
 
I believe that's correct. Is anyone able to/currently handling the edits?
 
We should wait for the edits to be finished, yes. Thank you for helping out.
 
Also, please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.
 
Good point. That should be clarified first, yes. It intuitively does seem very extreme.
 
Is being unbound by standard time and space still enough to fit in with current Immeasurable speed standards? Just checking as Immeasurable speed standards have changed a bit recently.
 
Is being unbound by standard time and space still enough to fit in with current Immeasurable speed standards? Just checking as Immeasurable speed standards have changed a bit recently.
That was just the TL;DR version, the rest was talked with Ultima by Milly over Discord, so you'll have to wait till either or could give a better explan explanation than I could.
 
Is being unbound by standard time and space still enough to fit in with current Immeasurable speed standards? Just checking as Immeasurable speed standards have changed a bit recently.
Archetypes are physical representations of the CU, which transcends time and space. It would be denied if we simply said the CU transcends time & space, and characters fight there, but Archetypes quite literally form the CU.
 
I would much prefer if these types of extremely significant statistics upgrades are never decided via Discord. It is against our rules, and impossible to inspect and verify for others long afterwards.
 
Being unbounded from the concept of time may be Immeasurable if their is more elaborate details, and I know I commented on the blog about it but I'm super tied up ATM and can't really give elaborate responses.
 
I would much prefer if these types of extremely significant statistics upgrades are never decided via Discord. It is against our rules, and impossible to inspect and verify for others long afterwards.
@Ultima_Reality

I would appreciate if you could elaborate directly in this thread. Thank you.
 
Okay. I would prefer a confirmation here though. Revisions should never be decided via Discord on principle.
 
It's more like off-site discussion =/= revision. If someone has to make revisions, they need to discuss it here in CRTs. (I don't know the context of whatever was or was not discussed, I am just stating the obvious because people are talking about it.)

As for why I was called here, I don't know any context about the verse, so I am not sure if I am the right person to judge. As someone who knows nothing about the verse though, I'd say a statement of transcending time isn't enough to mean anything about speed, but I am guessing there is other context that suggests that transcending time in this case means immeasurable speed?
 
It's more like off-site discussion =/= revision. If someone has to make revisions, they need to discuss it here in CRTs. (I don't know the context of whatever was or was not discussed, I am just stating the obvious because people are talking about it.)

As for why I was called here, I don't know any context about the verse, so I am not sure if I am the right person to judge. As someone who knows nothing about the verse though, I'd say a statement of transcending time isn't enough to mean anything about space, but I am guessing there is other context that suggests that transcending time in this case means immeasurable speed?
Yes.

Tl;dr, the Collective Unconscious transcends space & time. On its own, this would not be it. However, Archetypes are quite literally physical representations and form the Collective Unconscious, and as such, they are transcending space & time as well.
 
Finally looking at the timeframes Whitee gave me.

Akashic Record Affecting lower realities

This is just a showing of the Akashic Record changing events. Its not evidence for Low 1-C transcendence over space-time, it is merely a depiction of the ability to rewrite history and alter events.

Lower Realm being a projection onto a flat surface from the higher realm
This is just a case where we see images projected on a theater screen to depict the events. Which again seems to be the overlying metaphor for the Akashic Records being the "recording" of all events and history. It is not a case of reality-fiction interaction nor really appears to be detailed enough to accept it.


Light played from films (Akashic Record) is literal cosmos
How can you reach this conclusion from the scene? They don't say the universe or the cosmos is being projected from the film at all, it is only that the light being displayed onto the screen has a glittery starry sky effect to it. Without further context and verbal explanation this is worthless.

P5 Crew legit watches a trailer of one of the realities with it's own cinematic opening and narration
This doesn't mean that this reality is literally a film, considering it actually exists. This seems to me just how the Akashic Records depicts realities and records events, presenting them as film to be edited. But I will admit that all of the evidence presented this is the strongest yet.

At most I'd be fine with "At least 2-B, possibly Low 1-C". Not outright Low 1-C with no objections. I hope that is comprehensible.
 
This is just a showing of the Akashic Record changing events. Its not evidence for Low 1-C transcendence over space-time, it is merely a depiction of the ability to rewrite history and alter events.
False. This is the Akashic Records changing events that are currently happening, lower realities that are quite literally physical and capable of being stepped on. This isn’t rewriting history in the slightest.

This is just a case where we see images projected on a theater screen to depict the events. Which again seems to be the overlying metaphor for the Akashic Records being the "recording" of all events and history. It is not a case of reality-fiction interaction nor really appears to be detailed enough to accept it.
This is also false, as they literally show alternate realities and outcomes happening, even as far as other realities such as Kamoshidaman, Yosukesaurus, etc. This is further proven by PQ2 saying each of their respective teams come from different worlds, despite all of Persona’s story being in one timeline.

How can you reach this conclusion from the scene? They don't say the universe or the cosmos is being projected from the film at all, it is only that the light being displayed onto the screen has a glittery starry sky effect to it. Without further context and verbal explanation this is worthless.
This is blatantly denying evidence. From as far as Persona 1, the Collective Unconscious has always been portrayed as a starry cosmos, where in Persona 2, Lisa is thought to believe the CU is space, and even P4A, we get multiple visible perspectives on the CU, each that looks the same as here.
This doesn't mean that this reality is literally a film, considering it actually exists. This seems to me just how the Akashic Records depicts realities and records events, presenting them as film to be edited. But I will admit that all of the evidence presented this is the strongest yet.
What does that mean? Reality is literally able to be physically touched, stepped on, and is flat compared to the rest of the CU. This is the most blatant Low 1-C can get.
 
Tl;dr, the Collective Unconscious transcends space & time. On its own, this would not be it. However, Archetypes are quite literally physical representations and form the Collective Unconscious, and as such, they are transcending space & time as well.
You're saying the Collective Unconscious transcending time and space on its own is not enough, but because Archetypes are physical representations of them, that makes it enough? I don't see how first is not enough but being physical representation of first makes it enough? At the end, you're only using the statement of transcending time and space.
 
You're saying the Collective Unconscious transcending time and space on its own is not enough, but because Archetypes are physical representations of them, that makes it enough? I don't see how first is not enough but being physical representation of first makes it enough? At the end, you're only using the statement of transcending time and space.
That’s how the site’s standards work, realms on their own do not count for Immeasurable, but since Archetypes are physical representatives, and still possess that transcendence over space and time, they scale.

If that’s not enough, Enlil was able to edit an infinite amount of realities in an instant with her abilities. Erebus’s casual roar shook the CU, which is endless in size.
 
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you're arguing about site standards with a bureaucrat? ballsy

Jokes aside, as I've expressed before, I agree with the changes. If I recall, Ultima also agreed with the changes. Most of the knowledgeable members of the verse have given input and stated they agree with the changes. I think we should always be open to further debate on a topic, and if there are unaddressed arguments in opposition of a change, they should be addressed. Even so, I feel this level of support should be more than enough to apply the changes, unless any further arguments need to be made.
 
Okay. I would still prefer if Ultima could directly comment here though.
 
Thank you for helping out Ultima.

So should these changes be applied now then?
 
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