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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition

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Ok, so a friend on another server looked at this, and said the following.

"Shrugs I'll give my opinion on the persona thing since it was brought up. Persona having multiple timelines is correct. Eternal Punishment and Innocent sin are on separate timelines. The q games showed the P3 Fmc is from an alt timeline. More timelines outside of that isn't super elaborated on, but it's believable given slight hints. Not to mention how mainline SMT normally worls. The real world being influenced by public perception is implied by Morgana, but it's not to elaborated on. The velvet room and the Collective unconscious as a whole not really following conventional time/space laws is correct. The velvet room has been used for time travel before, the q games have time travel/dimension crossing. Many locations in the persona games like tarturus don't follow conventional time(Fuuka was trapped in it for like 10 days, but only experienced 10 hours), ect. Certain locations in the CU being "deeper" than others is correct. It's why some locations are essentially "layered" on the real world, while some are essentially removed. Kadath Mandala being one of the "deepest" parts is correct. I don't think I would try speculating on dimensional tier-ing though. So like Persona cosmology being a multiverse with the CU being outside normal space/time is correct. Personally I'm not sure any of the protags can literally blow up said multiverse give each game normally centers around a specific timeline or specific "world" within the CU rather than the whole thing though. Immeasurable speed via aspects of the environment the characters have no control over or just walking in a place where time doesn't exist is also probably pushing it."
 
Responding soon, as most of the things you've said are not what was depicted, and completely misinterpreting the reason behind our justifications.
 
I'm more inclined to side with Matt atm, mainly due to a 5D plane of existence needs to be incomprehensible to those with a 4D existence, and unless I missed something in the blog I don't think you managed to prove that either directly or in-directly with your scans.

If you think you did link me the specific scans, I could have missed something.
 
Could the statements of Collective Unconscious transcending time and space be related to not being bound by space and time like the velvet room ?
Considering everything, would be rather weird the CU coming before man, and also the P4G statement from Mr. Edogawa, he says the WORDS that every single verse wants to have to get more AP, but after that he says'' in other words... man's unconscious is shared''
He purely talking about man's unconscious being shared, not they indeed transcend, and CU being transcend gives a possible meaning of coming before man, opening a can of worms and goes against how Persona works.


For those who want to know the entirely of of Mr.Edogawa statement, i recommend jumping to 6:30, its ends on 8:00
It also can be understood that Mr.Edogawa also is refering mans Unconscious is always being shared throught the eras and places, basically started to exist and be shared on the moment man was born. Not necessary meaning it trancending time and space.
For the moment, i disagree with the upgrade
 
Matt does make quite a bit of elaborate points, but I'm more neutral then. But I'd like to give the pro side + DarkGrath a chance to respond.
 
I am also uncertain so far.
 
Antvasima said:
I am also uncertain so far.
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Me and Whitee will be responding periodically to Matt, which will be today. To prevent this thread to become drawn-out and over 7 pages along like Part 1, would it be okay we each deliver 3 responses, then allow the mods and spectators to decide which sounds more reasonable?
 
ShrekAnakin said:
Actually yeah, how does anyone scale?
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The same way people scaled for the 2-B upgrades which have passed. This blog is just updating the CU from 2-B to Low 1-C. I will let Milly handle the speed part since I didn't really touch that part.

@Matthew_Schroeder He means in the fashion of you post, we post. 3 times. As to shorten the debate across walls of different sub arguments. But I'm not sure that's quite warranted yet since most opposition is mostly agreeing with your assessment. I posted my rebuttal to Milly so waiting for him to log on and post the combined post to rebuttal your 10 points.
 
MILLY:

Matthew_Schroeder said:
2. The Collective Unconscious being "even more abstract" than the Velvet Room isn't evidence that it is infinitely higher either. This is talking about abstractions in the mind and not physical realms. Likewise, the statement that the power of the Collective Unconscious created space is referring to the physical universe, it's not evidence of transcendence.
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This is false, as “deeper” and “more abstract” in this case has always referred to ontological superiority, such as the Velvet Room being disconnected from time, a nexus that allows one to move through time by entering it to end up in another timeline, and especially the Kadath, who Philemon couldn’t even enter because he was weakened, and he’s quite literally the most abstract thing in the verse: An Archetype, a conceptualized bundle of thoughts.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
3. The ending of Persona 5 (Which is its own set of scans) isn't evidence for a higher-dimensional Collective Unconscious either, it's just stating that the Real World is subjective and shaped by the beliefs and ideas of people.
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This is what I mean by arguing things that aren’t there, that point was to prove the Cognition, and the Collective Unconscious, shape all reality. It is not just the physical world, Morgana directly says “not just the Metaverse”. Enlil admits here that her theater is simply a creation from the Collective Unconscious, so that’s false.
Matthew_Schroeder said:
4. The existence of multiple universes and the Velvet Room acting as a nexus between them isn't proof that it is higher-dimensional either. People in general seem to have the misconception that if something is in-between universes it must be higher-dimensional and therefore infinitely greater when neither is the case.
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Again, nothing implied BECAUSE it was a nexus alone that it was higher-dimensional. That is due to the countless statements of the complete disregard of time-space, and how it allows for one to time travel to other timelines due to its superiority to the duality, for if not that, PQ/2 could not have happened.
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The scans that prove that the Collective Unconscious connects to all worlds is nice and all, but it doesn't prove a Low 1-C level of existence, and neither does time or space not existing in it. Theodore's statement is a little better, but I don't think it confirms that the Collective Unconscious is higher-dimensional in relation to the Velvet Room, rather the analogy being used is really that of a Sea, as it always is, with the Velvet Room being merely an island in that sea which does not begin to convey how deep the ocean of consciousness truly goes. You can have the Collective Unconscious exist in a "deeper, more abstract" level than the Velvet Room without it being infinitely higher.
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No, the Collective Unconscious does not only connect all worlds, it holds all worlds. That was made blatantly clear in PQ2, where each team is stated to be from a different world, yet every single Persona game is connected and within the same timeline, with each having various callbacks to the previous. Also, again, it’s not due to just “lacking time-space”, it is because it holds all of Persona’s concepts (literally), everything being a result of the CU, and transcends it to a point where people’s minds & souls will always be connected despite a universal reset, meeting an alternative reality you with no paradoxes DUE to how superior it is to the concept of time, and the statement of Edogawa outright saying it transcends time and space. Recall the Boundary, from BlazBlue, that allows you to meet different alternative versions of yourself, is the nexus of all realities, and is stated to transcend time and space to such a point where one can use it as a medium to travel to other events, this is quite literally no different. Also, it’s size means nothing.

In the words of Ultima:
“You don't necessarily have to affect the entirety of a realm if a verse establishes that any portion of it, however small, completely trivializes a lower space, or if you can infer that from some basic evidence. A few characters from Umineko are really good examples of that, like Diana, for instance: She is pretty much just a regular housecat and is effectively 10-C in relation to her own plane of existence (That being Heaven), but it just so happens that said plane in general looks down upon lower worlds as fiction, so she qualifies for 1-B, even though she can't really affect all of Heaven or something like that.”

Matthew_Schroeder said:
7. The statement about time being distorted in Tartarus, as well as the statements about how the impossible becomes possible doesn't prove anything either. I"m sorry but I'm starting to become concerned with the validity of this upgrade, because all you do is present an exhausting amount of redundant scans to try and argue something that neither of them say.

To reiterate, something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes.
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It, actually does. All of these scans of “time not existing”, “the impossible is made possible”, “this could not have happened normally” is literally all evidence to the CU’s superiority over time and space, which is logically what allows these paradoxical events to even happen flawlessly. You keep disconnecting the scans, leaving out points all together, or simply arguing things that are never said.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
10-A. Parvarti stating that she is "one of the many forms" is referring to the many forms of the Hindu Goddess that she represents, with Sati, Parvati herself, Kali, Durga, etc. Hell, in some forms of Hinduism Parvati has ten different forms. This is not a statement about parallel versions of Parvati in different universes, I'm sorry.
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And, refer back to the countless statements of idealism and subjectivity being the only objective force in Persona. Maruki outright says everyone sees the world in their own way. All of these forms were individually created by the human minds, each of the countless variations.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
10-B. Ouroboros is a symbol of infinity, being the snake biting its own tail. It's not literally infinite, neither in power nor physical size. It's existence doesn't prove infinite universes either. In Shin Megami Tensei proper, the existence of the Ouroboros Demon proving 2-A power because "Lol it's infinity and eternal" is also not a great argument and has been rejected. YOu can't get from Low 2-C to 2-A just by throwing an infinite multiplier into the mixer. And since we're here, Shesha's name meaning "Infinite" is not evidence of 2-A either. In Mytholoy, Shesha contains is described as infinite because it contains one universe over its scales, not an infinite amount. And again, this is a Persona that represents Shesha, not the literal deity Shesha itself.

10-C. Brahma's statements that the Atman (The soul) is equal to Brahman (God), or that the Microcosmos and the Macrocosmos are one and the same isn't much new evidence either, it's just another among the countless statements in Persona about how consciousness and reality are one and the same. I don't see why it's used to prove anything.
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Both of these were to prove Persona’s of that caliber are creating full blown universes, admittedly I probably shouldn’t have put it under infinite, but it would only be Low 2-C. Also, ah, no. Persona’s draw strength from their Archetype, that’s exactly why the beliefs make them so strong, so it really wouldn’t matter if it was the actual archetype or not. Even though humans conceptualized Shesha doing it, and that became the legend and could be manifested into Persona.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
10-D. The statement that King Frost "rules over an infinite number of Jack Frosts" is plain hyperbole. It exists in Shin Megami Tensei proper where we actually meet and fight King Frost in more than one game. He is made of several Jack Frosts fused together but he is not literally physically infinite, in fact he can comfortably fit in a forest. Hell, he's only a few times larger than normal people. King Frost is not infinite nor is the amount of Jack Frosts that he rules over literally infinite.

And even if they were this would only prove High 3-A at most Not Low 2-C, not 2-A, and certainly not Low 1-C.
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To be honest, I’m willing to concede this point, even though I do have arguments, as the next one I tackle has more concrete ground anyways.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
And speaking of Hyperbole, Yaldabaoth's statement is blatantly hyperbolic as well. The "infinite masses" that it is reffering to in this context are the people on Earth. Not a literal infinite number of people giving praise to the Holy Grail. It is metaphorical language that is not to be taken literally.

Also this is irrelevant I think but I don't believe Lucifer is saying Joker transcended the Collective Unconscious, rather he is saying that Joker has gone beyond the limitations of his own heart and consciousness, his own bleak circumstances over the course of his journey. The statement isn't literal.
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Not really, let’s not forget about who and what Yaldabaoth is. Yaldabaoth is an administrator of the Collective Unconscious, and easily aware of the various realities within it (such as the Velvet Room, which he invaded and sealed off). Even lesser Administrators such as Enlil could quite literally observe every reality, much less someone as powerful as Yaldabaoth. Why do I say this? Because infinite masses isn’t referring to that one earth, it’s referring to the CU in general. If people such as Maki, who isn’t an administrator like either, is quite aware of the number of consciousnesses (that easily exceeds the number of one earth, she definitively says countless), why would Yaldabaoth, someone directly born from the CU, be hyperbolic? This is even further backed up, as Elizabeth, an attendant, outright says the CU is endless with innumerable faces. This has consistent backing, not to mention I actually covered this in the blog.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
Also this is irrelevant I think but I don't believe Lucifer is saying Joker transcended the Collective Unconscious, rather he is saying that Joker has gone beyond the limitations of his own heart and consciousness, his own bleak circumstances over the course of his journey. The statement isn't literal.
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You’re free to think that, but again, by the time you summon Lucifer, you would’ve already beaten Yaldabaoth, who has manipulated the CU.

WHITEE:

Matthew_Schroeder said:
1. A statement of Kaneko saying that the Velvet Room was inspired by the Black Lodge, which he describes as a "dreamy extradimensional place" isn't evidence of anything, and certainly not higher-dimensional tiering. It's only Kaneko conveying his impression of the Black Lodge from Twin Peaks. Likewise, Philemon existing in a different plane of existence isn't evidence of higher-dimensional status either. Something can be from a higher plane and not be infinitely higher.
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-I’m not sure why you are replying as if every single point on here is in of itself, proof for the scaling being proposed. The blog is a wholistic grouping of information to prove the end point. This piece of evidence is showing author intent. You are correct in that it is showing Kaneko’s impression of the Black Lodge. But it is implicitly also saying Kaneko made the velvet room as an extradimensional place as well. Black lodge could literally be replaced with any other dimension Kaneko thought was extradimensional, the point is he makes a direct comparison between that and the violet room and states they serve similar purposes. This is why in the very next section I outlined evidence in favor of it being extradimensional outside of just the statement to see if it aligned. Such as Ren coming back from mental/physical existence erasure after Yald fused reality and mementos due to finding haven in the Velvet Room. Once again, the Philemon quote is just going to show that Phil is inherently from a higher plane of existence, so much so that he can casually manipulate 4-D quantum physics. The quote is highlighting that Phil can do such things because of his higher dimensional existence. Which is displayed by Phil and Nyar watching life for eons and treating the survival of humans and the universe as nothing more than a bet/experiment which the P2 cast calls them out on.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
2. The Collective Unconscious being "even more abstract" than the Velvet Room isn't evidence that it is infinitely higher either. This is talking about abstractions in the mind and not physical realms. Likewise, the statement that the power of the Collective Unconscious created space is referring to the physical universe, it's not evidence of transcendence.
Click to expand...

In the collective unconscious, abstract realms are of higher order than each other. All of which are of a higher order than 4-D physical universes. These vary based on how abstract a place they are, which is why Kadath Mandala is of the highest order as it houses not only the concepts of True Demons/Persona, but also the concepts involved with humans such as recognition of the physical world, varying emotions, etc., that make up the physical world. Theo explains that realms being able to exist in a state where time and space are meaningless can be attributed to this is they are “deeper” realms. I disagree. The CU creating spacetime across all of its physical universes means its core must be transcendental of it, especially if it is purely abstract in nature creating space and time as lesser aspects of itself.

Such justifications were given to the Ur- Dragon from Magic: The Gathering for Low 1-C scaling.

Attack Potency: At least Low Complex Multiversal (Exists over the mortal realms of the multiverse, to which it is a fully transcendent being as opposed to a physical one), possibly higher (Described as one of the dominant powers of the multiverse, meaning it should likely be at least comparable to the Eldrazi titans)

Speed: Immeasurable (Transcends the multiverse and all its time) which is the same for several demons/persona from the series that the protags fight.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
8. I have a severe issue with your reading of the Kadath Mandala scan - and that goes beyond the fact that it's a tiny Discord Screenshot for ants of an unsourced translation - No, my problem is material, I don't think it says what it does. You say that it contains both the Macrocosmos and the Microcosmos, when the scan merely states that it is a Hexagram containing the Macrocosmos with the Pentagram representing the Microcosmos inside it. This is basic Thelemic Magic, where you have a Hexagram representing the universe (The Macrocosmos) and a Pentagram inside it representing man (The Microcosmos). The Kadath Mandala isn't above both the Macrocosmos and the Microcosmos, it is merely the hexagram symbol that has both. This isn't because it's "infinitely larger than both" but simply because it's both.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure where you are getting this interpretation from to be honest. Kadath Mandala is a special place of conceptual existence. It is vast itself, but it is not “simply both” the microcosmos and macrocosmsos. The description is given because it is highlighting the world of concepts as being above the micro and macro cosmos. That’s the whole point of the dungeon and why you need special access to reach “the world of the divine” ( RAW) when particularly strong persona users like Tatusya have no problem entering it’s other abstract worlds. It ultimately influences both, but it is not both and is a qualitatively higher plane. I don’t disagree with the Thelemic stuff but that is more meta influence than in story context.



The Sea of souls contains every human soul that was or ever will be. Which is why the CU is transcendent of time per the P4 supplementary info and based on descriptions/statements for it such as Tatsuya telling his friends they can meet from different realities when their souls return to the ocean. In persona there are as many parallel physical realities as save files of games. Each person in that game having their own mental world. But that’s not all, the Collective unconscious also encapsulates the mental world of all sentient life, not just humans. It was early life that manifested the ability to utilize the CU itself not humans and their memories and worlds are also apart of the make up of the CU. This isn’t even taking into account the Dream world which is a separate amalgamation of the cognitive worlds of people while they sleep separate to their conscious subjective worlds, and the Anti-Dream world where people’s dreams are realized.


Matthew_Schroeder said:
9. The existence of a specific Cognitive World for every human is not evidence of infinite universes. The statement that there are countless bubbles also doesn't prove anything, beyond the fact that each mind has their own consciousness reflected as a world within the Collective Unconscious. The Akashic Record Scans state that it records "all possibility", yes, but this is clearly in reference to all minds and all memories, not an infinite number of parallel universes. Something encompassing "all possibility" isn't evidence of infinite universes either.
Click to expand...

The akashic record not only houses memories/emotions but also “events” as stated by Akechi. Such events being trivialized by them appearing as literal camera film for Enlil when she manipulates it utilizing the Collective Unconscious. The text for the film states means that it records “all possible events and memories” for the persona Multiverse at large. The akashic record only being a smaller part of the entity that is the Collective Unconscious. There are many justifications for Low 1-C used for the Akashic record of Vampire Hunter D. that seems to be the same here. Looking at the cosmology page, they have multiple statements for extradimensional beings/zones based on quality of dimension as opposed to quantity as their parallel universes are mentioned as “countless”. Also having justifications such as “Low Complex Multiverse level with the Akashic Records (The Akashic Records contains all of creation, which is made up of multiple universes, and realms that transcend space-time.)”

“Low Complex Multiverse level (Governs over infinite possibilities within creation which contains multiple universes, with each one of it being inside the records, its own realm transcends said possibilities, seeing them as fiction or in the pages of a book)” Not only that but the CU encapsulates both physical and mental worlds. Something we have demonstrated and have already had passed. When describing the planes of the Collective Unconscious Elizabeth states “Depending on how deep you go, you may see this world’s endless landscapes and innumerable faces.”. Which not only tells us the dimensions are infinite but also reinforces that accessing some depends on how “deep” you can go. With the first level of depth being stepping into the abstract realm in the first place, let alone the layers beyond that ending with Kadath.
 
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Dr._whiteee said:
The same way people scaled for the 2-B upgrades which have passed. This blog is just updating the CU from 2-B to Low 1-C. I will let Milly handle the speed part since I didn't really touch that part.

@Matthew_Schroeder He means in the fashion of you post, we post. 3 times. As to shorten the debate across walls of different sub arguments. But I'm not sure that's quite warranted yet since most opposition is mostly agreeing with your assessment. I posted my rebuttal to Milly so waiting for him to log on and post the combined post to rebuttal your 10 points.
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But Yalbadoth only threatened the collected unconsious, not the whole cosmology.
 
I wish the post was ordered so that the points were replied to in the numberical order cause it's kind of confusing that 1 is right in the middle, etc.

But that's not a big deal. I'm not replying now due to frankly lack of time and investement and if I forced myself to write a lengthy reply it'd probably come across as rude. Can't promise a reply immediately but tomorrow at the latest.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I wish the post was ordered so that the points were replied to in the numberical order cause it's kind of confusing that 1 is right in the middle, etc.

But that's not a big deal. I'm not replying now due to frankly lack of time and investement and if I forced myself to write a lengthy reply it'd probably come across as rude. Can't promise a reply immediately but tomorrow at the latest.
Click to expand...
Once again, take your time, I wanna make this as fair for both of us, and leave with a good clean outcome.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
You’re free to think that, but again, by the time you summon Lucifer, you would’ve already beaten Yaldabaoth, who has manipulated the CU.
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Just checked atleast for both royal and vanilla P5 on what is needed to fuse Lucifer, you can get everything you need even before the holy grail/yaldabaoth act.
You just need Moon, justice, judgement arcana maxed and done, you can already max both confidants before the Yaldabaoth arc, so matthew still holds a point.

Also by saying Yaldabaoth manipulated CU, are you meaning he influenced the entire CU and not just mementos ?
 
EFÍTÉ said:
Just checked atleast for both royal and vanilla P5 on what is needed to fuse Lucifer, you can get everything you need even before the holy grail/yaldabaoth act.
You just need Moon, justice, judgement arcana maxed and done, you can already max both confidants before the Yaldabaoth arc, so matthew still holds a point.
Click to expand...
Okay, I’m fine conceding to that point.
 
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