- 15,998
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- Thread starter
- #121
Okay, not doing this here, just mentioning it in Rule Violation Reports, I don’t know why you’re trying to drag us down with you when we have nothing to with your situation.
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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition
- Thread starter Milly_Rocking_Bandit
- Start date
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- 16,959
- 4,855
So calling out something thats clearly hypocritical and turns an eye to a standard we go by a lot here, which involves Persona, is report-worthy?
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1. It's hard to know when it' you or when it's white so that's not my issue.
2. Not saying you think it's Tier 0, but in the context of the 90s Twin Peaks show even the transcencende over space and time is unclear.
3. Kaneko's inspiration for the Velvet Room was in the 90s since it's in Persona since the first game.
4. The book being translated in 2015 is irrelevant since Twin Peaks new material (The two books and Season 3) began in 2016.
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No, it’s derailing. This has nothing to do with what me and Matt are discussing, but literally focusing on us and us alone (and you haven’t done this to any other Japanese originated verse), trying to get us more than a slap on the wrist and bring us down with you. Already told you to stop, and you didn’t, I’m not gonna have your agenda pull us down when we have nothing to do with it.
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Kukui. Milly.
As the actual mod here I'm gonna ask both of you to stop derailing this thread.
As the actual mod here I'm gonna ask both of you to stop derailing this thread.
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Don't think it's cherry picking when they are outright referring to the design but alright.
Similar =/= Same. Once again, he's talking about the design when he says "they aren't too far from it". Regardless of similarities, you have to prove they are the same. the only thing you've done is point out how the velvet room is inspired by the Black Lodge, and how they share a similar purpose in the story. Two completely different things can share similar, if not the same purposes ya know.
How do the words "deeper dimension" = a dimension that transcends a Low 2-C structure? And what you've linked doesn't imply any sort of transcendence at all. Existing between dream and reality, mind and matter doesn't tell me anything either.
I don't have to prove anything. The burden is on you.
If there is a statement(s) that directly says that the velvet room is the exact same, not inspired, not similar, but share the exact same qualities as the Black Lodge, and/or transcends a Low 2-C structure, not any of that "existing between" stuff, transcends a Low 2-C structure, then I might accept it. Until then, its a no from me.
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- #127
I’m trying lol, all I’ve been trying to do is wait for your responses, but then all these bizarre claims and new regulations are being asked.
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With all due respect Matt, I fail to see how im derailing anything here when my complaint directly involves persona and hypocrisy in how we do things here.
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My guy this thread was going peaceful and calm until this started we are literally almost adding a whole new page of this.
Please, I wanted a peaceful thread that moved slowly. I hate threads that have endless back and forths that go on for 24 hour straight making the people in it so angry-invested they barely go to sleep in real life.
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Phil and Nyar treat the destruction of reality/humanity as nothing more than an experiment. The akashic record holds all possible events and memories of the Persona Multiverse. It is trivialized as camera film which an entity like Enlil can use for her own purposes and even edit to trap souls in false realities.
It is going to show for intent. The author considers the black lodge extradimensional. Seeing this, he sought to make his own version of it to serve as a similar construct in the story. Except they made it blue. That's all the velvet room part is supposed to show for in that section. You are skipping over the feats of it housing existences erased from physical and mental reality at large, being a place where time is meaningless and has no effect, it acting as a nexus between realities, and being a place where paradoxical events take place. Those are what confirm to us that Kaneko did indeed design "an extradimensional place".
It implies he is from an entirely different plane with that being the reason attributed to him casually manipulating quantum physics. It is later revealed this place is Kadath Mandala.
Game is higher canon. Other canon is accepted unless it is inconsistent or an outlier. But Milly already mentioned that a similar thing is used in one of the dancing games (which are canon).
Physical matter cannot enter the realm of the abstract. Yet physical matter is made up of the abstract. The levels of abstractness determine how the levels of existence interact. So you start with physical matter then move onto abstract matter. Then you hit places deep like the Violet Room, then realms created by dieties (TV world, Tartarus, Mementos), and finally the "divine" world of Kadath Mandala which is a world of concepts.
On your stuff regarding the Professor. It seems to be missing some core pieces of Persona lore. You mention that the CU being before mankind would be weird. But that's exactly what happened. The CU existed long before mankind backed up by Phil and Nyar watching life for "eons" It even contains the memories of all life before humans. Philemon also told us this when stating the CU created space. This is why cognition can affect reality and is the basis of it. Humans unlocked this ability to form their own plane of the CU when Nyx hit. Ancient Life organisms didn't exist in a solely physical universe, get hit by Nyx, and awaken some non-latent power that changed reality as a whole. Especially when you consider Persona verse is directly connected to Devil Summoner and SMT IF, and loosely connected to SMT as a whole. The CU was always an abstract existence far beyond space/time and created space/time as a lesser extension of itself. Which to my knowledge should also qualify it for Low 1-C given justifications to characters such as the Ur-Dragon from MTG.
You snipped the quote. Notice how your quote begins with the word "and" meaning the preceding information (about Persona and TP sharing similarities) also implies to the segment of "so we put our own version of it" with the stated difference being "only we made it a blue room rather than a red one.". Followed by hims stating the Velvet Room serves a similar purpose to the Black Lodge (which once again by Kaneko's interpretation is extradimensional) before going on explaining how it is such, directly relating back to the original description of a "dreamy extradimensional place.".
Like Kaneko literally appears as himself, in the velvet room, to tell you how much Time is meaningless there.
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I'll try to reply to the points.
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Okay so I will respond to Milly and Whitee's reply, which came out all as one thing.
You cannot simply say that the words deeper and more abstract refer to "ontological superiority" without further evidence. Yeah, it's established that the Velvet Room and the Collective Unconscious are abstract and mental, with both existing deeper than the real world, but that isn't evidence of absolute superiority in the Vs Debating sense. Again, looking at the scan which we are talking about here says nothing about infinite transcendence or superiority in the sense that would warrant an upgrade like you're arguing, which is what you would need to justify an upgrade to Low 1-C. And using big words like "ontological" isn't going to make any difference, as "ontological superioty" doesn't translate to Attack Potency like you're describing, where something is literally physically infinitely larger.
Okay? And again, what exactly does that achieve? All of reality (Obviously the entire physical world) is shaped by Cognition, that much is known, but this isn't evidence of Low 1-C. I'm literally not disagreeing with you here, I just fail to see how this is even supporting evidence for you claim. But I get that you wanted to make like a justification blog so you put all the lore on the CU that you could find.
I still don't see how this supports the Low 1-C argument, but I'll leave it aside since it's not the core of the evidence.
I already addressed this exact argument in my original reply post. The concept of time not applying to the Velvet Room, which functions as a Nexus between realities that exists outside of the physical world, isn't evidence that it is higher-dimensional - certainly not in the Vs Battles Wiki sense that you're arguing for. Time doesn't exist there, and that's fine, but the nonexistence of time in the Velvet Room tells you absolutely nothing about it's size. And size is what you're arguing about here.
The fact that it allows for time travel and timeline crossing is also irrelevant to my point, because that is just a consequence of time not existing / applying to the Velvet Room, it is not additional evidence which strenghtens the argument.
Connecting all words and holding all words within this context are practically synonyms, and one isn't more impressive than the other. I don't disagree that all timelines and universes share a single Collective Unconcious, that much is obvious thanks to Persona Q and Persona 4 Golden, but that doesn't justify the Collective Unconscious being Low 1-C like you believe it is, even if it "holds" all worlds.
I fail to see how it being unnafected by universal resets (When you're arguing it is a multiversal thing) or allowing for people to meet alternate-reality versions of themselves or the transcendence of space and time is proof of this transcendence by way of infinitely-greater geometrical size that you are arguing for. It can transcend space-time and contain all universes and still just be on the same tier as those universes, just on a higher scale.
Also, I really don't care for other verses like Blazblue or Umineko, as I'm arguing for the merits of the arguments presented here in favor of Persona only. I don't think the bolded argument for trivializing lower words like in Umineko is remotely comparable to Persona. Umineko goes on at length on how there are worlds above worlds and how in one world the lower levels are like fiction, with several metaphors and representations and descriptions. Persona meanwhile has the Collective Unconscious being the origin of all reality, existing outside of space-time, and being described as deeper and more abstract. That's it, it's not nearly enough. Specially for the argument that affecting a portion of it is superior to affecting all that is beneath it (Though in this case it would be "Above it" as we are dealing with Conscious Reality vs Unconscious Mind)
Okay, and? Again, as with the Velvet Room I don't see why this matter. As with the paradox argument already previously presented, this doesn't mean that the "transcendence over time and space" exists in the Vs Debating manner that you're arguing for.
To reiterate (again), something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes. I am not ignoring the scans, I am addressing there direct content, which I quote and link to in my post. Like I said in my post, a place existing outside of time isn't necessarily evidence that it exists dimensionally-superior to the time axis, it could simply mean that the time axis doesn't exist in it.
Again, I don't deny that Yaldabaoth's power applies to the entire Metaverse or Collective Unconscious, but the problem is that you then use that idea to extrapolate something not present in the actual text. The concept of parallel realities and timelines is not at all present in Persona 5, rather it is found in the Persona Q Spin-Offs, Persona 2, and Persona 4 Golden. This is why until your revisions began nobody argued for Multiversal Yaldabaoth because people went strictly by what was established in Persona 5 alone, not the previous games and spin-offs.
I'm not saying their lore is invalid, only that you can't use the argument that "Yaldabaoth should be aware of other realities meaning that in this line he is literally talking about an infinite number of realities." Specially because we see first-hand in game what his effect over the human population is. Parallel universes are never mentioned, only the population of Earth is. You cannot ignore what goes on in the actual game in favor of a second-hand interpretation based on word association. Persona 5 never mentions alternate universes and shows that Yaldabaoth was affecting the population of Earth. That's who the "masses" are.
And even if you had conclusive proof that Yaldabaoth was influencing parallel universes that doesn't mean that his line is literal. "The masses that praise me are infinite" is a throwaway line and not one to be taken literally for sure. And in any case I'd recommend checking the original Japanese Version here, as I'm sure the quote from the boss fight can be easily found and because there are many Japanese words that can be translated as infinity, literally or not.
No for Whitee's portion which is thankfully shorter.
In regards to the Twin Peaks / Black Lodge quote, I already talked about this with Milly in the Discord but I will explain clearly here:
As for the meaning of "Extra-Dimensional", you appear to use it as a synonym for "Higher-Dimensional" in your posts. A common mistake, but ultimately incorrect. The prefix "Extra" merely means to be "outside", "except from", or "beyond" something. The word Extra itself comes from Latin, where it means those exact things. Therefore, the prefix Extra- doesn't mean "higher", but outside.
See "Extramarital Relationships", meaning relationships outside of the marriage, or "Extraterrestrial Creature", meaning a creature from outside of Earth, or "Extrajudicial", literally meaning "Outside of the law".
(See also the Latin word Exter, meaning "from the outside", from which the English exterior derives).
Extradimensional, then, merely means "Outside our dimension", which is exactly all that was established about the Black Lodge in 90s Twin Peaks (See the quote above) and is a term frequently used in fiction to refer to any realm outside of our universe. Marvel Comics, for example, loves the term, and uses it to refer to every single mythological realm of every pantheon, regardless of their size and regardless if time applies to them or not.
In short, Extradimensional does not mean "Higher-Dimensional".
I do not deny that Philemon is an abstract entity which exists beyond reality and outside of space and time, but these are characteristics that could be used to describe any Tier 2 Cosmic Entity regardless of their precise tier. They do not support the Low 1-C you argue for.
Realms being of "higher order" than one another isn't evidence of them being infinitely higher-dimensional compared to themselves. As isn't the Collective Unconscious containing all universes or creating all reality, all of these can be achieved by a multiverse. And as I have stated before in my post, their "transcencende" is mental and conceptual, as one falls deeper and deeper into the sea of the unconscious, rather than physical and geometrical. You argue for superiority over physical dimensions derived from the place being physical in its own right, when it isn't. The realms being "Deeper" are not good evidence of a higher tier, I went over this in my argument originally.
"To reiterate, something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes."
Finally, the last statement is just wrong. The Collective Unconscious creating spacetime doesn't mean it is transcendence over it, for the same reason of a being creating a planet isn't going to be transcendence over the concept of physical matter. It only shows that one originates from the other, not what you're arguing for.
I got my interpretation from... The very scans which you linked, the scans which described it as the Hexagram of the Macrocosmos which contains the Microcosmos within it. It is indeed both, because one contains the other in itself. The low-quality fan translation which you linked says it as such, "The Kadath Mandala is a hexagram structure that contains a pentagram", there is no ambiguity. It is both, not superior to both. IT is a deeper part of the Collective Unconscious yes, but it's still in the Collective Unconscious, it is not infinitely higher from it. That it is described as the "World of the Divine" (Again, really poor quality fan translation scan there) is irrelevant once again. The Kadath Mandala isn't infinitely above the Collective Unconscious, it is merely the deepest part of it. It is not evidence for Low 1-C.
The Collective Unconscious containing every human soul is again irrelevant to my argument. I'm not sure what it's supposed to reinforce, because unless you can prove the existence of infinite universes this will mean a enormously large yet still countable number of souls inside it. The Collective Unconscious needs direct, conclusive evidence for me to believe it is physically dimensionally superior to an infinite multiverse as you argue that it is. All the evidence you give is supplemental and just says the same thing over and over, in different ways.
Finally, the Akashic Records stores memories and events, yes. That's fine. And?
Seriously, I don't see how this is Low 1-C. You again bring up a completely different verse with its own version of the Akashic Records as if I'm supposed to care. This is about Persona, not Vampire Hunter D, not Twin Peaks, not Blazblue, not Umineko. Stick to the arguments given to the existence of the Akashic Records within the context of Persona, please.
Within the context of Persona, the Akashic Records is solely described as a composite records of all memories and the events therein. It is not higher-dimensional or infinite or transcencent over the multiverse or whatever, I'm sorry.
And finally, Elizabeth's statement of "the world's endless landscapes and innumerable faces" is poetic and metaphorical. The world doesn't have infinite landscapes nor an infinite population, she is talking about the beauty of the world and its vastness. For goodness sake, you don't have to use every time a word like "endless" or "innumerable" or "countless" shows up in the series to argue for something.
And that should be all of it for now. My stance hasn't changed. I still reject it.
You cannot simply say that the words deeper and more abstract refer to "ontological superiority" without further evidence. Yeah, it's established that the Velvet Room and the Collective Unconscious are abstract and mental, with both existing deeper than the real world, but that isn't evidence of absolute superiority in the Vs Debating sense. Again, looking at the scan which we are talking about here says nothing about infinite transcendence or superiority in the sense that would warrant an upgrade like you're arguing, which is what you would need to justify an upgrade to Low 1-C. And using big words like "ontological" isn't going to make any difference, as "ontological superioty" doesn't translate to Attack Potency like you're describing, where something is literally physically infinitely larger.
Okay? And again, what exactly does that achieve? All of reality (Obviously the entire physical world) is shaped by Cognition, that much is known, but this isn't evidence of Low 1-C. I'm literally not disagreeing with you here, I just fail to see how this is even supporting evidence for you claim. But I get that you wanted to make like a justification blog so you put all the lore on the CU that you could find.
I still don't see how this supports the Low 1-C argument, but I'll leave it aside since it's not the core of the evidence.
I already addressed this exact argument in my original reply post. The concept of time not applying to the Velvet Room, which functions as a Nexus between realities that exists outside of the physical world, isn't evidence that it is higher-dimensional - certainly not in the Vs Battles Wiki sense that you're arguing for. Time doesn't exist there, and that's fine, but the nonexistence of time in the Velvet Room tells you absolutely nothing about it's size. And size is what you're arguing about here.
The fact that it allows for time travel and timeline crossing is also irrelevant to my point, because that is just a consequence of time not existing / applying to the Velvet Room, it is not additional evidence which strenghtens the argument.
Connecting all words and holding all words within this context are practically synonyms, and one isn't more impressive than the other. I don't disagree that all timelines and universes share a single Collective Unconcious, that much is obvious thanks to Persona Q and Persona 4 Golden, but that doesn't justify the Collective Unconscious being Low 1-C like you believe it is, even if it "holds" all worlds.
I fail to see how it being unnafected by universal resets (When you're arguing it is a multiversal thing) or allowing for people to meet alternate-reality versions of themselves or the transcendence of space and time is proof of this transcendence by way of infinitely-greater geometrical size that you are arguing for. It can transcend space-time and contain all universes and still just be on the same tier as those universes, just on a higher scale.
Also, I really don't care for other verses like Blazblue or Umineko, as I'm arguing for the merits of the arguments presented here in favor of Persona only. I don't think the bolded argument for trivializing lower words like in Umineko is remotely comparable to Persona. Umineko goes on at length on how there are worlds above worlds and how in one world the lower levels are like fiction, with several metaphors and representations and descriptions. Persona meanwhile has the Collective Unconscious being the origin of all reality, existing outside of space-time, and being described as deeper and more abstract. That's it, it's not nearly enough. Specially for the argument that affecting a portion of it is superior to affecting all that is beneath it (Though in this case it would be "Above it" as we are dealing with Conscious Reality vs Unconscious Mind)
Okay, and? Again, as with the Velvet Room I don't see why this matter. As with the paradox argument already previously presented, this doesn't mean that the "transcendence over time and space" exists in the Vs Debating manner that you're arguing for.
To reiterate (again), something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes. I am not ignoring the scans, I am addressing there direct content, which I quote and link to in my post. Like I said in my post, a place existing outside of time isn't necessarily evidence that it exists dimensionally-superior to the time axis, it could simply mean that the time axis doesn't exist in it.
This is irrelevant, because you are taking completely separate events and dialogues and fusing them together to create something that isn't there in the original text. Sure, reality is subjective in Persona nad it is shaped by human minds, but in the context of Parvati, her statement that she is "One of the many forms" is undoubtedly a reference to Shaktism, and the belief that Parvati is one of the many forms of one great goddess.
Again, I don't support using Persona Compendiums or Persona Dialogues to support them being universal. Shesha and Ouroboros being univeral / infinite ideas in myth is irrelevant to a Persona that merely takes the form and represents a mythic Archetype. Even if they derive strength from the Archetype that doesn't prove that the myths literally translate to them. We see how Persona is liberal with mythology in 3 and 4 and 5, with Nyx, Izanami and Yaldabaoth taking the names and archetypes of mythological characters but not literally being them, rather only being representations in the metaphorical sense.
Again, I don't deny that Yaldabaoth's power applies to the entire Metaverse or Collective Unconscious, but the problem is that you then use that idea to extrapolate something not present in the actual text. The concept of parallel realities and timelines is not at all present in Persona 5, rather it is found in the Persona Q Spin-Offs, Persona 2, and Persona 4 Golden. This is why until your revisions began nobody argued for Multiversal Yaldabaoth because people went strictly by what was established in Persona 5 alone, not the previous games and spin-offs.
I'm not saying their lore is invalid, only that you can't use the argument that "Yaldabaoth should be aware of other realities meaning that in this line he is literally talking about an infinite number of realities." Specially because we see first-hand in game what his effect over the human population is. Parallel universes are never mentioned, only the population of Earth is. You cannot ignore what goes on in the actual game in favor of a second-hand interpretation based on word association. Persona 5 never mentions alternate universes and shows that Yaldabaoth was affecting the population of Earth. That's who the "masses" are.
And even if you had conclusive proof that Yaldabaoth was influencing parallel universes that doesn't mean that his line is literal. "The masses that praise me are infinite" is a throwaway line and not one to be taken literally for sure. And in any case I'd recommend checking the original Japanese Version here, as I'm sure the quote from the boss fight can be easily found and because there are many Japanese words that can be translated as infinity, literally or not.
No for Whitee's portion which is thankfully shorter.
In regards to the Twin Peaks / Black Lodge quote, I already talked about this with Milly in the Discord but I will explain clearly here:
Season 1 of Twin Peaks came out in 1990, Season 2 in 1991, and the movie Fire Walk With Me in 1992. Twin Peaks would then have absolutely no media up until 2014, when the special Blu-Ray release of Fire Walk With Me came with 90 minutes of deleted scenes titled "The Missing Pieces", and no new material alltogether until "The Secret History of Twin Peaks" novel was release in 2016. Season 3, Twin Peaks the Return, finally aired on 2017. Did you get all that?
Good, because Persona 1 came out in 1996. The Twin Peaks that Kaneko watched and consumed and which served as an inspiration for Persona is not the Twin Peaks of the 2010s, it is not Season 3 and the Novels, where the series really amped the esoteric and cosmic elements and finally gave the viewers enough tidibts of lore to even attempt to form a cohesive cosmology. The original Twin Peaks series is extremely ambiguous and sparse, only being a Murder Mystery Soap Opera with a supernatural angle.
The line which Milly quoted in one of his posts, taken from Ultima's blog, to justify the comparison as supporting evidence, is literally from the 2016 novel. It is utterly irrelevant to the comparison Kaneko made in the 90s that led to the creation of the Velvet Room in Persona.
Good, because Persona 1 came out in 1996. The Twin Peaks that Kaneko watched and consumed and which served as an inspiration for Persona is not the Twin Peaks of the 2010s, it is not Season 3 and the Novels, where the series really amped the esoteric and cosmic elements and finally gave the viewers enough tidibts of lore to even attempt to form a cohesive cosmology. The original Twin Peaks series is extremely ambiguous and sparse, only being a Murder Mystery Soap Opera with a supernatural angle.
The line which Milly quoted in one of his posts, taken from Ultima's blog, to justify the comparison as supporting evidence, is literally from the 2016 novel. It is utterly irrelevant to the comparison Kaneko made in the 90s that led to the creation of the Velvet Room in Persona.
As for the meaning of "Extra-Dimensional", you appear to use it as a synonym for "Higher-Dimensional" in your posts. A common mistake, but ultimately incorrect. The prefix "Extra" merely means to be "outside", "except from", or "beyond" something. The word Extra itself comes from Latin, where it means those exact things. Therefore, the prefix Extra- doesn't mean "higher", but outside.
See "Extramarital Relationships", meaning relationships outside of the marriage, or "Extraterrestrial Creature", meaning a creature from outside of Earth, or "Extrajudicial", literally meaning "Outside of the law".
(See also the Latin word Exter, meaning "from the outside", from which the English exterior derives).
Extradimensional, then, merely means "Outside our dimension", which is exactly all that was established about the Black Lodge in 90s Twin Peaks (See the quote above) and is a term frequently used in fiction to refer to any realm outside of our universe. Marvel Comics, for example, loves the term, and uses it to refer to every single mythological realm of every pantheon, regardless of their size and regardless if time applies to them or not.
In short, Extradimensional does not mean "Higher-Dimensional".
I do not deny that Philemon is an abstract entity which exists beyond reality and outside of space and time, but these are characteristics that could be used to describe any Tier 2 Cosmic Entity regardless of their precise tier. They do not support the Low 1-C you argue for.
Realms being of "higher order" than one another isn't evidence of them being infinitely higher-dimensional compared to themselves. As isn't the Collective Unconscious containing all universes or creating all reality, all of these can be achieved by a multiverse. And as I have stated before in my post, their "transcencende" is mental and conceptual, as one falls deeper and deeper into the sea of the unconscious, rather than physical and geometrical. You argue for superiority over physical dimensions derived from the place being physical in its own right, when it isn't. The realms being "Deeper" are not good evidence of a higher tier, I went over this in my argument originally.
"To reiterate, something existing in "Another Plane", a "Place where time has no meaning", a "Place where the impossible becomes possible", a "Deeper, more abstract realm of the mind"... None of these prove the validity of a Low 1-C rating, even if this Collective Unconscious is connected to multiple universes."
Finally, the last statement is just wrong. The Collective Unconscious creating spacetime doesn't mean it is transcendence over it, for the same reason of a being creating a planet isn't going to be transcendence over the concept of physical matter. It only shows that one originates from the other, not what you're arguing for.
I got my interpretation from... The very scans which you linked, the scans which described it as the Hexagram of the Macrocosmos which contains the Microcosmos within it. It is indeed both, because one contains the other in itself. The low-quality fan translation which you linked says it as such, "The Kadath Mandala is a hexagram structure that contains a pentagram", there is no ambiguity. It is both, not superior to both. IT is a deeper part of the Collective Unconscious yes, but it's still in the Collective Unconscious, it is not infinitely higher from it. That it is described as the "World of the Divine" (Again, really poor quality fan translation scan there) is irrelevant once again. The Kadath Mandala isn't infinitely above the Collective Unconscious, it is merely the deepest part of it. It is not evidence for Low 1-C.
The Collective Unconscious containing every human soul is again irrelevant to my argument. I'm not sure what it's supposed to reinforce, because unless you can prove the existence of infinite universes this will mean a enormously large yet still countable number of souls inside it. The Collective Unconscious needs direct, conclusive evidence for me to believe it is physically dimensionally superior to an infinite multiverse as you argue that it is. All the evidence you give is supplemental and just says the same thing over and over, in different ways.
Finally, the Akashic Records stores memories and events, yes. That's fine. And?
Seriously, I don't see how this is Low 1-C. You again bring up a completely different verse with its own version of the Akashic Records as if I'm supposed to care. This is about Persona, not Vampire Hunter D, not Twin Peaks, not Blazblue, not Umineko. Stick to the arguments given to the existence of the Akashic Records within the context of Persona, please.
Within the context of Persona, the Akashic Records is solely described as a composite records of all memories and the events therein. It is not higher-dimensional or infinite or transcencent over the multiverse or whatever, I'm sorry.
And finally, Elizabeth's statement of "the world's endless landscapes and innumerable faces" is poetic and metaphorical. The world doesn't have infinite landscapes nor an infinite population, she is talking about the beauty of the world and its vastness. For goodness sake, you don't have to use every time a word like "endless" or "innumerable" or "countless" shows up in the series to argue for something.
And that should be all of it for now. My stance hasn't changed. I still reject it.
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Please don't take my disagrement personally. I'll reply again tomorrow probably. 
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Funny how I was actually reading Whitee's responses, then boom, a response from you. One final response from us will likely come tomorrow, and then yours, then we'll let people decide. Whatever happens, thanks for being respectful and reasonable.
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I don't disagree with this. If you read the blog I never wrote the Velvet Room being higher dimensional in that paragraph going over the Velvet Room Feats. I always referred to it as extradimensional, which is what was being proposed. This is a low 1-C blog for the CU which is what me and Milly decided was best. So we're talking about that being what ultimately is transcendent
Nah I think the CU in whole is.
Yes and what I am saying is that the "physical and geometrical" is completely trivialized and becomes meaningless in the deep realms of the CU. As space time in persona is a by-product of the CU and cognition. So 4-D reality in persona is just an extremely poor version of cognition. Very similar to Gnostic Christian concept of Monad and it's cosmology. In fact, Kadath Mandala is originally called Monado Mandala (I believe it's called Kadath in punishment due to it's Silver Key influence) and the monad in Gnostic mythology is the god or existence in the higher realm above the physical. KAdath represents this to a T and is literally the realm of the divine which can only be accessed when one is mentally/spiritually empowered enough.
Let's look at some justification for SMT
Low Complex Multiverse level (In his complete nine-headed form, the Kuzuryu is powerful enough to annihilate everything in Earth and completely destroy the enterity of the Expanse, a conceptual plane of existence formed by the thoughts of mankind which exists beyond all of space and time;"
And I literally posted the raw of the Monado Mandala scan. The other kadath translations are from Japanese speakers who played through the game and translated it.
Creating a planet and creating a space time that can support infinite timelines is completely different creating a planet. Especially when said thing is also abstract in of itself, and created matter as a lesser extension of itself. Creating a planet can be done physically but not creating a conceptual world far eclipsing material reality in existence.
Except it's not both. That is literally just a fact Matthew. The hexagram structure is literally sitting as the floor of Kadath mandala symbolically, and beneath that is the literal macro cosmos. You enter realms of different concepts above the macrocosmos and fight True Demon Gods there. You also have to find the conceptual pieces of Maya's being there in order to restore her life physically.
This is why it is considered the "divine" realm where you need special access. It literally trivializes the "lower" reality of the realities below it. What you are saying is akin to saying that Christian Heaven is the same as the Earth/material universe. It's just flat out false given what we know from the game, guides, and basic visuals.
We do have the quote. You claim it's purely metaphor but that is completely unfounded. The whole time Liz is giving us objective information about the Collective Unconscious. There is literally no reason to assume she is using those words as just flowery language as opposed to a direct confirmation of how many planes it holds. The "faces" part of it sure is flowery I guess? But that is not what we are concerned with as we know "faces" and "landscapes" both refers to the planes that the CU holds, where "innumerable" and "endless" are direct descriptors of the planes she is referring to. We already know from basic knowledge that countless worlds exist, and Liz confirms that the number is actually infinite. There is literally no reason to question her knowledge as a ruler of power.
This isn't an argument.
I did give you the context in Persona. In PQ2 Enlil manipulates the Akashic record. An entity holding both the events and memories of a 2-A structure, which in of itself is trivialized by being film, which Enlil can manipulate.
You also keep doing this thing where you act like Persona isn't allowed to use prior canon games as an information source for cosmology. Azatoth tells MAruki that Yaldabaoth's influence reached even the sea of hearts where he came from. Guess where that is? Kadath. Meaning Yaldabaoth reached even the highest realm. This was not a problem last time when we passed 2-B Umr cross scaling from P2 and P5. I'm not sure why it's being brought up here tbh.
This is where your logic falls short. You can't plug your ears when it comes to what other verses have had passed. The standards of the wiki are objective and universal, and thus can 100% be applied when looking at if something is indicative of a certain tiering.
I saw no evidence of infinite dimensions from Vampire Hunter D. And even if it is, saw justifications exactly the same as in Persona's case. Which is why I linked those standards, and why I linked the Ur-Dragon from Magic scaling to Low 1-C for existing prior to time and the multiverse.
It is a medium that contains all possibilities of a 2-A verses' events and memories, which in persona covers the totality of existence for physical and mental worlds below Kadath that make up the CU cosmology. Given the standards applied to other verses, should scale to Low 1-C.
This is an extremely important point to this discussion so I want to highlight this interaction for the rest of the thread, because this is 100% incorrect.
She is not talking about the Earth. Her reference to world is talking about the single entity of the CU. Her whole dialogue from the beginning of her story is directly describing the CU to the audience as she is moving to the deepest parts of the CU to reach Nyx and Door Kun. You mentioned "infinite population" and I think this is indicative of your misunderstanding. When she says "faces" and "landscapes" she is referring to worlds, which in persona are universes (such as in the case of palaces, and spiritual worlds) not people on a single planet.
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Also, Ren Amamiya? Call Joker by his real name, Akira Kurusu, smh.
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That was the point of his joke lol
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I wanted to post this to give a bit more insight into the cosmology and how persona's subjective reality works. Should give more insight into some of the arguments being made here.
Jungian Psychology and Persona
Jungian Psychology and Persona
Persona cosmology/concept is heavily influenced by Jungian Psychology. In Persona 4, a supplementary information piece was released like the Guidebook for P3. In it contained a lecture outlining the verses mechanics explained through Jungian psychology(something done multiple times over the course of Persona’s history) and directly speaking on the mechanics of the verse. This aligns throughout all of Persona as will be detailed.
In the persona universe everyday humans exist as apparent material beings in a space/time. We know this to be a product of cognition shaped by the Collective Unconscious. We know that the CU created space-time and exists A priori to humans themselves. We know that humans can create parallel space/times via their cognition of the world, and we know countless physical universes exist on top of the minds in the sea of souls. All of these encompassing most of the CU’s makeup and being described as infinite. Finally these infinite worlds exist in an endless cycle of destruction and rebirth. Understanding all of this is important before we dive in.
The Collective unconscious is a world of massive psychic energy. It is compared to a network. It exists Beyond space-time and thus connects humans regardless of them. It is abstract in nature to varying degrees defined by “deepness”. But what exactly does that mean and by what mechanism? The Collective Unconscious is “the foundation of the mind”. Or the source from which all minds come from, we know this to be the “sea of souls” (itself a term coming from the ocean of unconscious Jung used to describe the levels of consciousness and unconsciousness). Philemon also confirms this. The Collective unconscious has basic elements that form the mechanic by which it operates: cognition. Cognition by definition is “the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses.” Which Morgana backs up in persona 5. In persona this is the driving force behind phenomena in the CU existence and was a theme even in Persona 2. But how does cognition operate?
Archetypes are the fundamental building block of the Collective unconscious, and are the means by which cognition achieves its effect in shaping existence. These archetypes themselves are described as infinite and form the basis of all understanding via pattern recognition. Cognition is not possible without archetypes, as they are the means by which information is understood. We’ve established that this network of archetypes is A priori to humans themselves (they make up the CU which itself creates the mind) and instead form the basis of human understanding at birth. These concepts ultimately dictate reality with sentient life acting as a medium for further change via cognition.
The world of the Kadath is one of pure conceptual nature. This is the case for the persona/demons that are born there. But the Kadath doesn’t only just hold those entities. As we established earlier, the archetypes are infinite and are necessary for cognition to occur and shape reality. These are all separated into 6 areas that make up the Kadath (Monado) realm: reason, instinct, judgment, intellect, feelings, and decency. In fact, this is the main reason for the team needing to enter the Kadath in the first place. Maya was killed by Nyarlathotep and her conceptual existence erased and scattered into the Kadath. The team needed to find the concepts (archetypes) that were necessary for her to return to life. Thus showing that humans themselves need these archetypes to exist.
Jung had an alternate form of causality called “synchronicity” in which events would be linked by meaning instead of typical causal relationships. This would be the parapsychological term for the mechanism of cognition.
Given this information, we can gain a particularly good understanding of how the Persona universe operates as a cosmology and the functions that shape it. The CU is all of existence by way of being a source of archetypes which give form to the understanding (cognition) needed for reality to form and change. This source is stated to be beyond and transcendent of space/time. It is both the source of the soul energy that exist, and the beginning of minds. Given that we know the CU also created space-time (even before humans obviously) we can assume it and it’s archetypes inherently transcend such concepts as they would also need to be created from said archetypes in order to exist in reality.
Summation: Kadath Mandala and by extension, the greater entity of the CU transcends space-time as a purely conceptual realm which dictate all of reality below it.
In the persona universe everyday humans exist as apparent material beings in a space/time. We know this to be a product of cognition shaped by the Collective Unconscious. We know that the CU created space-time and exists A priori to humans themselves. We know that humans can create parallel space/times via their cognition of the world, and we know countless physical universes exist on top of the minds in the sea of souls. All of these encompassing most of the CU’s makeup and being described as infinite. Finally these infinite worlds exist in an endless cycle of destruction and rebirth. Understanding all of this is important before we dive in.
The Collective unconscious is a world of massive psychic energy. It is compared to a network. It exists Beyond space-time and thus connects humans regardless of them. It is abstract in nature to varying degrees defined by “deepness”. But what exactly does that mean and by what mechanism? The Collective Unconscious is “the foundation of the mind”. Or the source from which all minds come from, we know this to be the “sea of souls” (itself a term coming from the ocean of unconscious Jung used to describe the levels of consciousness and unconsciousness). Philemon also confirms this. The Collective unconscious has basic elements that form the mechanic by which it operates: cognition. Cognition by definition is “the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses.” Which Morgana backs up in persona 5. In persona this is the driving force behind phenomena in the CU existence and was a theme even in Persona 2. But how does cognition operate?
Archetypes are the fundamental building block of the Collective unconscious, and are the means by which cognition achieves its effect in shaping existence. These archetypes themselves are described as infinite and form the basis of all understanding via pattern recognition. Cognition is not possible without archetypes, as they are the means by which information is understood. We’ve established that this network of archetypes is A priori to humans themselves (they make up the CU which itself creates the mind) and instead form the basis of human understanding at birth. These concepts ultimately dictate reality with sentient life acting as a medium for further change via cognition.
The world of the Kadath is one of pure conceptual nature. This is the case for the persona/demons that are born there. But the Kadath doesn’t only just hold those entities. As we established earlier, the archetypes are infinite and are necessary for cognition to occur and shape reality. These are all separated into 6 areas that make up the Kadath (Monado) realm: reason, instinct, judgment, intellect, feelings, and decency. In fact, this is the main reason for the team needing to enter the Kadath in the first place. Maya was killed by Nyarlathotep and her conceptual existence erased and scattered into the Kadath. The team needed to find the concepts (archetypes) that were necessary for her to return to life. Thus showing that humans themselves need these archetypes to exist.
Jung had an alternate form of causality called “synchronicity” in which events would be linked by meaning instead of typical causal relationships. This would be the parapsychological term for the mechanism of cognition.
Given this information, we can gain a particularly good understanding of how the Persona universe operates as a cosmology and the functions that shape it. The CU is all of existence by way of being a source of archetypes which give form to the understanding (cognition) needed for reality to form and change. This source is stated to be beyond and transcendent of space/time. It is both the source of the soul energy that exist, and the beginning of minds. Given that we know the CU also created space-time (even before humans obviously) we can assume it and it’s archetypes inherently transcend such concepts as they would also need to be created from said archetypes in order to exist in reality.
Summation: Kadath Mandala and by extension, the greater entity of the CU transcends space-time as a purely conceptual realm which dictate all of reality below it.
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I obviously support Matthew on all his points, nothing of this points to either Tier 1 or Immeasurable.
Also funny how someone brought up the Expanse since I was planning to make some downgrades related to it after dealing with some Fate threads.
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The akashic record of the 2-A structure is literal film to Enlil. She can edit this film to change the lower realities.
The realities are played out as films in Enlil's realm (a theatre).
The light projecting from the Akashic Record being literal cosmos
Existence trivialized by Enlil in her realm.
Immeasureable is easier. The archetypes exist beyond space time in Kadath. Concept of time is irrelevant to them. This scales to a ton of folks.
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Also pointing out that with the recent Xenoblade Upgrades seemingly being passed, the CU would qualify persona in the same light given justifications such as:
Which is legitimately the same thing (replace Passage of Fate with Collective Unconscious, and "ether" with "archetypes".).
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So have you guys given up on the big one post thing?
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Nah, busy atm with school, so I'm still gonna respond, just gonna take time.
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For the sake of brevity, since Whitee already replied to some of my post try not to repeat it. Then I can reply to you both in one go whenever that comes.
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It's just a meme about Tyler the Creator.
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Wise
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Ultima is disputing the Xenoblade upgrades on said thread, so not a good argument to make.
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I know, it was from our discord conversation that he was reminded to post there. Given his last post to me I'm pretty sure he is okay with low 1-C persona from Enlil's feat, but I'm gonna wait for him to fully expound on it.
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Also I would like to add that Enlil is an administrator of the CU and fought by weaker version of each end game cast from P3-P5. Her theatre realm being 5-D would have implications for the rest of the universe in terms of scale.
Philemon and Nyarlathotep are stated to exist in a realm deeper than Kadath Mandala (with Kadath being referred to as "one level shallower" than Phil/Nyar's realm). The Kadath Mandala itself (the realm of infinite archetypes that are necessary for existence) being a realm that only Nyar/Phil can give access to, outside of the best of persona users, and the artifact of the Silver Key held by Randolph Carter. Thusly existing as deeper than other realms of the unconscious. Meaning those realms exists layered even deeper ontologically. So should be well above baseline.
Philemon and Nyarlathotep are stated to exist in a realm deeper than Kadath Mandala (with Kadath being referred to as "one level shallower" than Phil/Nyar's realm). The Kadath Mandala itself (the realm of infinite archetypes that are necessary for existence) being a realm that only Nyar/Phil can give access to, outside of the best of persona users, and the artifact of the Silver Key held by Randolph Carter. Thusly existing as deeper than other realms of the unconscious. Meaning those realms exists layered even deeper ontologically. So should be well above baseline.
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By the way, just so people don't have to wait on something that won't come, Ultima isn't interested on commenting here but he agrees with Matt.
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Thanks
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This was said before Ultima was shown the Enlil feat. He'll be commenting soon. According to Whiteee, who has been talking to Ultima through Discord.
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bump
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I feel like the whole hyperfixation on the Black Lodge thing is getting a bit rendundant.
There is much more prevalent evidence in the blog beneath that. I'd say it'd be better to focus on that and debate against it, rather than a Twin Peaks reference used as a supporting statement.
There is much more prevalent evidence in the blog beneath that. I'd say it'd be better to focus on that and debate against it, rather than a Twin Peaks reference used as a supporting statement.
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I just want a reply from Milly
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