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ah yes i see, i have no ideia how i forgot about this dialogue, when i recently beat the game for the 4 time.
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Persona General Revisions Part 3: Low 1-C, Immeasurable, and Cognition
- Thread starter Milly_Rocking_Bandit
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About Velvet room and Philemon.
''which was sort of extradimensional place'' Wouldnt the word SORT implie he doenst know for sure and thats the way he would describe not meaning is Truth and being extradimensional.
Philemon being from another realm implies he comes from the CU, in especific Kadath Mandala if not mistaken.
About Lavenza saying she crossed time and space in the anime. Makes me ask, isnt the games higher canon than other medias (anime, manga, etc) ? If yes, can you show proof of it ? I did search and i didnt find this line on the P5R. (someone could check for P5).
''which was sort of extradimensional place'' Wouldnt the word SORT implie he doenst know for sure and thats the way he would describe not meaning is Truth and being extradimensional.
Philemon being from another realm implies he comes from the CU, in especific Kadath Mandala if not mistaken.
About Lavenza saying she crossed time and space in the anime. Makes me ask, isnt the games higher canon than other medias (anime, manga, etc) ? If yes, can you show proof of it ? I did search and i didnt find this line on the P5R. (someone could check for P5).
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- #83
Not really, considering the feats match up.
Yes.
Anime, and considering it’s a retelling of the game, and other attendants have crossed time and space before (Elizabeth in P3Dancing), it shouldn’t matter.
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I mean, Velvet room is indeed is own realm and outside of time and space, i dont see the realms in persona acting like transcendental or in a hierarchical way (on dimensional sense).
The series doenst go into dimensional stuff asides from space and time that its seens to be related more to human reality than CU when compared.
I did go into the transcend and some stuff on a comment, so i quoting myself here, to avoid the necessity of you having to search it.
The series doenst go into dimensional stuff asides from space and time that its seens to be related more to human reality than CU when compared.
I did go into the transcend and some stuff on a comment, so i quoting myself here, to avoid the necessity of you having to search it.
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- #85
If you don’t think so, okay, the blog was made to prove that point with its various examples of it transcending time and space.
Completely wrong, this series mentions dimensions and alternative realities all the time, in quite literally every game since Persona 2.
I can hardly understand half of what you’re saying. The Velvet Room isn’t bound by time, not sure why you’re switching stances now. The whole reason the CU can exist and hold all these gods despite existing before man who retroactively created the CU is because it transcends time and space, and makes linear time redundant, that’s the entire point that’s been made.
Man’s unconscious being shared. What do you think that refers to? The Collective Unconscious. He outright says it does, the feats match up on time and space being irrelevant to the CU, becoming before mankind means literally nothing considering how again, time means absolutely nothing to it.
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About the first point in the blog, the "extra-dimensional" thing they mention, they are talking about the Black Lodge, not the velvet room. "Extra-dimensional" seems pretty hyperbolic anyways.
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The Velvet Room is being compared to the Black Lodge in that interview and there's numerous scans posted throughout the blog that elaborates on the Velvet Room being extra-dimensional. Read the blog.
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- #88
“When asked by an interviewer if the Velvet Room was inspired by Twin Peak’s Black Lodge Kazumi Kaneko states “You’re referring to the Black Lodge which was a sort of dreamy extradimensional space, right?”. He then goes on to explicitly state that “we put our own version of it in”, and explicitly states the two places have similar functions inside of their respective stories.
Literally the first point made in the blog. Please, please, PLEASE the blog before responding with something it already addresses.
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What do the Japanese version of the scans say?
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- Thread starter
- #90
Which ones, we have like 50+ you need to be more specific.
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My bad. I meant all of them.
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- #92
Probably the same thing, my senses tell me so.
Nah, but assuming you mean the interview, that’s the English translation, not sure if I can even the Japanese ones.
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Okay then what about the game scans?
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- #94
Lol, dude we don’t have them, I don’t speak or know japanese so finding the exact moment where they say it is out of my league.
The interview scans were translated by freelance translator Thomas James, a Japanese game translator, so if anything it holds up. But if you’re asking for the Japanese version for all of the game ones, outta luck, lol.
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Okay, so then why are we going with translation scans (game scans) that arent from the source material?
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- #96
Excuse me? You mean the scans that were professionally translated by Atlus’ team themselves? None of us Persona supporters speak or know Japanese, I’m not sure why you expect us to have them on hand.
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When the interview is talking about putting "their own version in it" they are talking about the design. "and I like how the Black Lodge was designed, so we put our own version of it, only we made it a blue room rather than a red one." And just because it's based off of something/shares similar purposes within the story, it doesn't mean they are equivalent. And it especially doesn't mean it shares the same properties.
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I'd expect you to because, from what aware of and been told, we go with the source material first and foremost.
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The source material is used and we use official translations for it, what’s the difference here?
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Difference? Whatevers in the translations thats not from the OG soruce material isnt taken. Thats why I asked for the japanese scans.
Theres a reason why not all english stuff is taken here.
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While i should been more clear that persona uses alternative timelines and etc, and i waiting a response when comes to hiearchy stuff.
I never denied the CU and velvet room not being affected by time, i just said it cant be transcendent over time. And i explained why.
i went into Mr.edogawa comment with the entire context with, is comment about transcending time and space isnt refering to a actual transcendence.
Considering how Jungian psychology (if i didnt get anything wrong) and CU works, if i wipe out all infinite timelines and kill myself, CU ceases from existing. You cant have unconsciouness without consciouness and life.
i already explained why Mr.Edogawa is refering the fact man and animals (thanks to nxy shenanigans if i not wrong) uncounscious is being shared since ancient times, you can add the multiverse statements which expands what edogawa said.
About the main antag from P1, he is cleary refering to human reality, unless you count the interview, because asides from that interview which the statement of being extradimensional can fall into being another realm not necessary being transcendental.
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These are long as hell RPG's of 6 games (without spinoffs)
I would take forever to source everything
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- #103
Nice cherry-picking.
1. Kaneko outright says in response to the “extra-dimensional dreamy place”, that he’s not far off from it. Considering you literally enter the Velvet Room in your dreams, it’s not far fetched.
2. Kaneko afterwards says he isn’t subtle about liking Lynch’s work, and both realms serve similar purposes.
Don’t believe me? Here’s an excerpt from the source material, credence to Ultima’s blog:
“When I opened my eyes, two things occured: I realized that I was no longer where I thought I had been, and at the same moment no longer knew who "I" was. My vision was both clouded and somehow enhanced, and at some level I registered that what I was "seeing" was not physically in front of me. I also knew that the "veil" of reality had been rent, split or torn away and that I was looking into a different and perhaps "deeper" dimension, one that either underlies ours or that coexists with it side by side, separated by the thinnest margin imaginable, one that our relatively primitive neurology prevents us from perceiving.”
“As i "looked" deeper--an inadequate description for a kind of seeing that involved all my senses, although not necessarily on the physical level--I realized there were living beings before me in this field of energy. As they drew closer to me, I realized that they could "see" me as well that my presence had drawn their interest. This alarmed me slightly, as I could not discern their intent. They might have been angelic or demonic, or perhaps hybrid creatures, and there were many of them moving towards me, tall and humanoid. I realized that their interest in me felt cold, reptilian, neutral but shading towards malevolence, lacking all compassion.”
Now, here’s our blog:
Using the same exact terminology.
And that’s far from it, feel free to look at Ultima’s blog and scroll down to the Black Lodge, to see the Velvet Room, fundamentally, shares the same purpose, and as a reference to the original:
3. Kaneko then begins to explain the astral and spiritual part of the Velvet Room’s existence, implying it is FAR more than just designs. Considering the constant quotes of it existing between dream and reality, mind and matter, it is quite clear it’s not just “based off of”.
4. You would have to prove they aren’t equal, and share the same qualities.
Okay, then I want you to go every CRT with Japanese origin and ask them where the Japanese scans are, that shouldn’t be hard either, considering you’re a Pokémon supporter.
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And yet much longer games with official translations aren't given the same luxary.
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- #105
Hierarchy was already proven with the existence of deeper realms.
You really didn’t, everything you said was false and debunked.
Prove it.
Okay??? What does this even mean???
Okay? I clearly said physical or mental in the blog in response to Kandori. Prove its “fall into being another realm”.
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- #106
This is so strange, it was supposed to be me, Whitee, and Matt, and now it’s a bunch of claims that are already debunked by the blog or literally make no sense like going back and getting all the Japanese scans that were translated.
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What does me being a "Pokemon Supporter" have to do with calling out this double standard? Not trying to be rude or anything here.
But its very interesting that other verses that have professionally translated english translations get blocked from using them for upgrades, yet here, Persona is getting everything under the sun for using nothing else but english translations for them.
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- #108
I’m just pointing out the flaw of logic here. If that’s the case, why not do this to every Japanese translated verse?
Listen, I won’t deny there are double standards, bias, etc on this site, and I’m not sure how much excess scrutiny Pokemon goes through, but trying to equalize it to Persona when, as far as I know, it hasn’t had any inconsistencies in its realms in the English, is just aggravating to be honest. Because then, we’ll have to scrutinize every single Japanese translated verse, when some aren’t even inconsistent.
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Because, as I said, this is a double standard thats inherently pretty big. You dont see this happening for every japanese originated verse with mangas, animes, games, etc. but it only gets applied to some, conveinently.
See above. This isnt a personal attack against Persona or anything, but just a general call out. Other verses with professional translations that have 0 reason to be flawed get their english stuff scrutinized and yeeted for being englsih, yet other verses get everything handed to them on a silver platter solely with english stuff.
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- #110
This is, to be honest, a problem bigger than Persona. You should make this clear to the mods, make a staff thread, something, but mentioning it here does nothing, and can further increase the unnecessary bias/scrutiny some verses get. I get what you’re saying, and I apologize for coming off strong, but looking at it from your perspective you should make this known.
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Realistically, it should. But its also fair to call this out here since Persona is falling under one of those such cases of getting everything via english while others, for some reason, can't.
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- #112
Dude, this is derailing.
Stop acting like Persona is this golden child verse, people clearly have problems with what’s being proposed. Plenty other verses get off Scott free with just English localizations.
Stop acting like Persona is this golden child verse, people clearly have problems with what’s being proposed. Plenty other verses get off Scott free with just English localizations.
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literally no persona revision prior has required pure raw scans. this is ridiculous
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- #114
And here we go, stop bringing this here.
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As I said, Persona is one of these examples, not the sole offender. And thus, its fair to call this out here in this upgrade thread.
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And yet, again, other verses when in the middle of getting extremely blatant upgrades are hit with the exact opposite requirement. To get raw scans and see what they say.
So something is very wrong here, clearly.
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- #117
This is the last time I’m going to say it—Take this to Staff Discussion and stop detailing this. It has nothing to do with what’s currently being discussed with Matt, and has nothing to do with Pokémon’s dilemma, which should be brought up to the moderators.
I will get the moderators here if this doesn’t stop.
I will get the moderators here if this doesn’t stop.
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Stop with this about the Black Lodge. The inspiration for Twin Peaks doesn't matter specially when Twin Peaks had 0 feats or clearly defined Cosmology up until 2016 when the book came out.
I get what you're doing, Twin Peaks is ranked super high in the wiki so you want to use the fact that the Velvet Room is inspired by the Black Lodge to justify the tiering intention, but it just doesn't work. Twin Peaks wouldn't even be Tier 2 if you only had the old show and the movie. You specially cannot use the quotes from the 2016 Twin Peaks novel to justify that the Velvet Room being described as "deeper" than reality is directly inspired by the Black Lodge description from the book when Persona came out in the Late 90s.
Secondly a work should stand on its own, regardless of its inspirations (Unless in very rare cases where like, a work is taking a specific religious idea as the inspiration and its taking it so literally that characters literally recite said religious text verbatum in the work proper)
I get what you're doing, Twin Peaks is ranked super high in the wiki so you want to use the fact that the Velvet Room is inspired by the Black Lodge to justify the tiering intention, but it just doesn't work. Twin Peaks wouldn't even be Tier 2 if you only had the old show and the movie. You specially cannot use the quotes from the 2016 Twin Peaks novel to justify that the Velvet Room being described as "deeper" than reality is directly inspired by the Black Lodge description from the book when Persona came out in the Late 90s.
Secondly a work should stand on its own, regardless of its inspirations (Unless in very rare cases where like, a work is taking a specific religious idea as the inspiration and its taking it so literally that characters literally recite said religious text verbatum in the work proper)
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- #119
I don’t see how this matters, considering it still has feats, and the guidebook for this was translated in 2015.
Stop shoving words in my mouth too, I literally never heard of Twin Peaks till we started the revision, especially since Whitee wrote that part. So stop trying to say “you get what I’m doing”, when the only thing I’m trying to prove is it’s transcendence over space and time, not that it’s Tier 0 or anything like that.
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It has everything to do with whats being discussed here, completely and wholeheartedly, because its apparently a standard we go by here. Half-heartedly anyway.
Why should a large upgrade like this go through with english only scans when half the time, its always "go by the raw source material and if its different, english is invalid", ? Your right that this needs a staff thread, and I might as well get to making that soon. But as of now, this is something we're doing here, so Persona shouldnt be given a slap on the wrist for this.
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