Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[ElixirBlue]

Out of curiosity, in the Persona series, has the word “World” ever been used to describe something smaller than a universe?

 

[GokuBold]

Out of curiosity, in the Persona series, has the word “World” ever been used to describe something smaller than a universe?

According to Solacis: "There hasn't been a single time, in all of my rewatches and replays of the games (admittedly only as far as I can remember), that the aforementioned words have been used to refer to something as limited as, say, the planet."

 

[ElixirBlue]

Then if there are no examples of the word being used to describe something smaller than a Universe in the Persona series, then as an outsider, I can’t imagine “World” meaning anything else but Universe unless there is evidence it being used for something smaller.

 

[GokuBold]

According to those in disagreement, it is considered "Linguistic Powerscaling".

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, I have a response ready for Sol's comment, not for Milly's yet. Should I post this and just continue with the debate or wait until tomorrow when I have more time/energy to dedicate to this thread?

@GokuBold

I guess this is directed at Sol, too.

The verse itself doesn't determine the meaning of a word, or possible uses of a word. Each verse doesn't operate on it's own dictionary of basic English and/or Japanese, and simply because a word is used more often in one way doesn't mean it must be assumed to be used in that way. It's not like this matters, anyways, since "world" doesn't imply size and when you use it next to a term like "universe" it's the word "universe" that gives size, not world. We don't know what size palaces are, world doesn't denote size, so there's nothing for us to assume size off of besides what we can actually see and demonstrably prove.

 

[ElixirBlue]

According to those in disagreement, it is considered "Linguistic Powerscaling".

So... “World” means nothing then? When they use the word “World”, they referred to the visible space that the player sees? If I’m understanding that correctly.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So... “World” means nothing then? When they use the word “World”, they referred to the visible space that the player sees? If I’m understanding that correctly.

World doesn't mean anything when it's concerning size, if that's what you're asking.

It has uses that don't relate to size, but those aren't really relevant to the thread here.

 

[ElixirBlue]

:/ I mean, fair, but from what I understand about cognition that the game told, it’s basically the mimicry of what an individual understands how the reality they live in works.

Basically, I understand that I live in the universe. That I live in a neighborhood. The cognition would re-create the neighborhood exactly because I’m aware of it, even mimic the details I would never know of about the neighborhood.

 

[GokuBold]

:/ I mean, fair, but from what I understand about cognition that the game told, it’s basically the mimicry of what an individual understands how the reality they live in works.

Basically, I understand that I live in the universe. That I live in a neighborhood. The cognition would re-create the neighborhood exactly because I’m aware of it, even mimic the details I would never know of about the neighborhood.

It's not just a mimicry, basically, the cognitive world is a replica of the real world, and the only thing that changes are the areas were the distortion of the palace rulers reaches, for example, there is an exact copy of the real world in Kamoshida's cognition, but the school as a whole is completely different from the real world, that's because in Kamoshida's eyes the school looks/is like a castle from his perception. What is being questioned is the size of the space inside of the cognitive world, whether is infinite or finite.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do whatever you want in response to responding to us.

 

[Solacis]

Well, I have a response ready for Sol's comment, not for Milly's yet. Should I post this and just continue with the debate or wait until tomorrow when I have more time/energy to dedicate to this thread?

I don't mind hearing it now. Considering the time difference, this is pretty much the last free day I have before I'm off for service for another week.

 

[Solacis]

Dargoo still solos

If you're not going to be constructive, please leave.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Out of curiosity, in the Persona series, has the word “World” ever been used to describe something smaller than a universe?

It is used metaphorically to refer to people's experiences too. Like, world is a pretty common word that people throw around and it has lots of meanings depending on the context.

Someone saying "you changed my world with your kindness" has an obviously different context than "They are polluting the world's oceans".

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It is used metaphorically to refer to people's experiences too. Like, world is a pretty common word that people throw around and it has lots of meanings depending on the context.

Someone saying "you changed my world with your kindness" has an obviously different context than "They are polluting the world's oceans".

Where has that been said in the Persona verse though?

 

[Stupits]

Well in case it wasnt Clear I completely agree with Sol and Milly and agree with the CRTs. My only concern is the Universal range via cosmic flare and Morning star but if Sol can answer that I'm all good. Also did Dargoo play Persona?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Where has that been said in the Persona verse though?

Why does it need to be said in Persona? Persona doesn't determine what words mean. If Persona doesn't use a word a certain way once it doesn't mean that potential use of the word stops existing.

Also did Dargoo play Persona?

I've played Persona 5 and watched the anime. Good stuff, although this isn't very relevant to the thread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Solacis

Spoiler

This cannot be assumed. Besides the fact that the words "world" and "yellow" are a noun and adjective respectively, and thus aren't comparable through your example outside of the former being used purely metaphorically, what if the writers did in fact have such a thing?

I've already made an example using a noun further up on the thread. I feel like this is just being nitpicky and attacking something irrelevant to the case I was making rather than, well, attacking the case itself. The principle is ultimately the same - you're taking one use of a word and trying to apply it to all other uses of the word.

The writers of persona use their own, unique version of the Japanese language? This is news to me for sure, I'm not sure why this wasn't brought up earlier in the thread.

I have already presented several scans of the words "world" and "reality" being used in reference to the universe, and no scans so far have contradicted this conclusion. In terms of evidence, said conclusion should already be valid, as I've noted above.

You're treating this like a powerscaling problem and not a linguistic problem. Words that have multiple meanings being used a certain way does not, and I'll say this for the final time, mean that it must always be used a certain way in a verse. A palace can be a "world", the universe can be a "world", that does not mean a palace must be the universe or be universe-like, because that's not how the word works. Reality is even worse in this regard.

I asked if there was a single case of a palace directly being referred to as a universe. This was either just ignored or, at this point, I'm beginning to believe that it's just been failed to be provided on the thread since I've asked a number of times and it hasn't been answered.

If we really need to go through the logic of "they call a palace a world, they use world X times to describe the physical universe, palaces are universes", despite world, again, as a word, having not denotative or connotative implications of size, then I seriously don't think I'm budging on the issue.

Mementos being universal in size despite only having visible distortions underground would give credence to the assertion that all Palaces, regardless of the size of distortion, would be universal in size as well.

Could I get a cite on all palaces being the same size? I don't think this was actually proven or given in the OP, or at least could I get a reference as to what in the OP is supposed to evidence this. Otherwise I fail to see why Mementos can't just be much larger than individual palaces, something that makes a ton of sense on the surface since it's powered by billions of individuals as opposed to one.

At this point, there is no reason to believe that any Palace would be arbitrarily smaller in scale considering all of them clearly refer to the same 'template' in the collective unconscious.

This is like saying that, since a pocket reality is made of matter/space/energy and the universe is made of matter/space/energy, all pocket realities must be the size of the universe. How a pocket reality is composed and created does not indicate it has a specific size.[/quote]

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why does it need to be said in Persona? Persona doesn't determine what words mean. If Persona doesn't use a word a certain way once it doesn't mean that potential use of the word stops existing.



I've played Persona 5 and watched the anime. Good stuff, although this isn't very relevant to the thread.

That was quite literally the question being asked to Matt. Has world been used to describe things like that in Persona?

 

[Stupits]

It was just out of curiosity, Thanks for answering though.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That was quite literally the question being asked to Matt. Has world been used to describe things like that in Persona?

I get that, but I was asking why the question is relevant to the discussion here to begin with.

Like, regardless of Matt answering yes or no to this it's not affecting what the word means.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m not the one who asked it.

Also, I disagree.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I agree with all of Matthew's arguments. Individual palaces doesn't seem universal sized based on the evidence provided.

I also agree with him. Wtf is this reasoning for low 2-C fodder in P5 lol

 

[Stupits]

I also agree with him. Wtf is this reasoning for low 2-C fodder in P5 lol

just because they’re fodder doesn’t mean they aren’t allowed to have a high tier and also they’re bosses not fodder.

 

[Solacis]

@Dargoo_Faust Just as a heads up, I'm really not in the best state of mind right now so forgive me. I'm only responding now because I really feel like this is the last few hours I'll be able to respond with any level of coherency before I'm off for another week. I'm going to try and keep as level-headed as possible out of respect for the fact that you're legitimately arguing this without resorting to personal insults (unlike a certain person who shall not be named), but in the event that I do get out of hand, feel free to call me out as needed.

I think we're forgetting the fact that this is a Japanese game, with Japanese connotations of the word "world". While certainly, in English, "world" can refer to a vast number of things. However, in Japanese it has far more limited meanings, with more nuanced uses of the word requiring additional characters beyond just the standard "世界", and would be reflected in the localization as being more than just "world" on its own. Allow me to list them down so we can go through this through process of elimination.

1. Most commonly, it means "world" as in "the planet". Considering how every Palace has already been proven beyond planetary in size based on the fact that all of them contain stars, this can obviously be crossed out.

2. It can be used metaphorically to refer to one's worldview. This is obviously crossed out considering every use of the word "world" in reference to Palaces is in reference to the space itself, and any time it is tied into how it represents the Ruler's worldview, it is stated clearly, such as in this scan.

3. It can be used to refer to society as a whole. Again, this is crossed out, for the same reasons as number 2.

4. Finally, it can refer to its original meaning, which originates from Buddhism (which conveniently, also ties directly into the whole "macrocosm and microcosm" thing from earlier), which refers to the entire universe.

I never thought I'd have to dig into my old Japanese textbooks for this CRT, but I won't deny it came in handy.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This has gone absolutely nowhere, we keep repeating the same exact arguments and none of us budge.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

At this point, I think just seeing what side of the argument for Low 2-C Palaces have the most support and conclude it based on that. We'll hit 500 replies by Tuesday and not make any progress(unless Darg wants to concede).

 

[Stupits]

At this point, I think just seeing what side of the argument for Low 2-C Palaces have the most support and conclude it based on that. We'll hit 500 replies by Tuesday and not make any progress(unless Darg wants to concede).

darg isnt the problem since he actually makes sense if viewed from a certain point but ngl I dont agree with his points. The real problem imo is Matt no offense but he doesn't really justify any of his points and just sides with the group trying to turn down the crts

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

darg isnt the problem since he actually makes sense if viewed from a certain point but ngl I dont agree with his points. The real problem imo is Matt no offense but he doesn't really justify any of his points and just sides with the group trying to turn down the crts

Yeah, I don’t think Darg is a problem either, but if he were to come to concession on this then we’d basically be done with the debate about Low 2-C Palaces.

 

[Stupits]

Honestly what Solacis stated above should already he enough Evidence that when Persona characters say "The World" they are referring to the Universe and that would be enough evidence that Palaces are a Low 2C structure since that is the only thing preventing us from moving on

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

just because they’re fodder doesn’t mean they aren’t allowed to have a high tier and also they’re bosses not fodder.

Because the other feats beyond "has a palace" are nowhere near Low 2-C like OP insists.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, I don’t think Darg is a problem either, but if he were to come to concession on this then we’d basically be done with the debate about Low 2-C Palaces.

I don't understand the logic here.

"If he just agreed we wouldn't have a discussion". I mean, yeah? This is why discussions even exist in the first place.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

I don't

I don't understand the logic here.

"If he just agreed we wouldn't have a discussion". I mean, yeah? This is why discussions even exist in the first place.

I don't see what was wrong with what I said. We were talking about how this debate has been dragging on, and none of us has budged. I said that it'd be best if we just see which side has more support and then go with that. Unless Darg comes to a concession with Sol's recent response.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Aight.

However, in Japanese it has far more limited meanings, with more nuanced uses of the word requiring additional characters beyond just the standard "世界", and would be reflected in the localization as being more than just "world" on its own.

Wasn't actually aware of this, personally. Just from what I could research on a surface level, a variety of sources told me that the Japanese word "Sekai" basically has the same definitions and uses as the English word "world", and I found that very easy to believe considering the western influence on modern Japan - and wouldn't be surprised that the last century has influenced the word's meaning to include a variety of uses that are beyond "the planet", "society", and "the universe". For now I'll take your word on this while I do some more research myself - and I'll look for examples in Persona where it was used in a context that would match the English definition. However in my experience, at least in fiction, "world" even in the Japanese definition doesn't have a set size for which it describes thing.

We have a number of other bilingual members I'll bring over here to look at the situation - if there really is no in-between between "planet" and "universe" for the Japanese word, even in mordern usage, I may have to drop my argument. Which, hey, doesn't line up with my POV on Persona but if I can't argue that POV successfully I'm not going to force it on the site.

If this part of my argument is removed, I think the only major issue I have left is the assumption that the starscapes and non-distorted parts of the palace were created by the palace users themselves and not the collective unconsciousness of humanity, since the infodump on how Palaces are sectioned off from Mementos means we don't need to assume that the palaces are purely the creation of the palace rulers themselves and not just affected sections of the Metaverse that Yaldy cut off at some arbitrary distance.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Progress. I’ll wait for Sol’s response, if not then, I’ll respond.

 

[00potato]

I now am starting think this is at worst a possibly low 2-C if even Dargoo is being a bit looser on it. Unless you want to make a big argument about outliers or something out there.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The **** does that even mean??

 

[GokuBold]

Oh Jesus, I just noticed this is part 1 of the revision, and we are still in the first argument. Have something like this ever happened in Vsbattle?.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Okay, so I talked to a bilingual user (Sleepy) as well as a user who knows some Japanese (Zoey), who can comment further on the thread if necessary.

Here's what they had to say:

Me: Can 世界 be used to refer to something that is smaller than the Observable Universe, but larger than the planet, Earth?

@Zoey_of_Scadrial

I mean, I dont see why not. But I am not fluent, so dont take my word as law.

@SleepyTBubble

it's a contextual word

so yes

it doesn't have necessary to be the planet

or the universe

Obviously not very in-depth responses, but if more is required from them they can comment here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Oh Jesus, I just noticed this is part 1 of the revision, and we are still in the first argument. Have something like this ever happened in Vsbattle?.

RWBY and Steven Universe have seen worse, from my experience at least.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Context matters, as always. Words have multiple meanings. You can't prove something is a universe just because it has stars and because people call it a "world" in the same verse where people use "Real World" to refer to the universe.