Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well first, prove these claims with evidence, and secondly wait, because speed isn’t the topic right now.

Burden of proof is on the people who actually claim he's MFTL+

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Burden of proof is on the people who actually claim he's MFTL+

It hasn't been claimed once in this thread; not in the replies or the OP. If anything, the burden of proof is on you because you never provided any proof of your claims. As Milly said, wait till the AP discussion is over with before getting into speed.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

> burden of proof is on people who make the claim
> no one mentioned speed but you
> your claim is that they aren’t FTL

Strange logic buddy.

 

[Stupits]

Well if the Universal Range is accepted for the Moves Cosmic Flare and Morning star their MFTL+ speed is legit since it technically comes from the same basis which is the animation.

But yeah talk about this later atm we are discussing Low2C Palaces

 

[Stupits]

> Considering the statements of Palaces directly mirroring the real world, and how just the visible size of a single Palace has already demonstrated itself as being far beyond planetary, equal to the visible size of the real world, is it really out of the question for Palaces to be perfect mirrors of the real world, and thus be of universal size?

Dargoo In a way this statement is already enough proof if you think about it . And making Persona Palaces Low 2C because of it wouldn’t automatically make every other 4A Parallel universes Low 2C because the persona verse works differently from them. Dargoo if you think about it it’s impossible for us to count all those stars right? then how do you think the Palace rulers did it? That alone is enough to show that even things outside of their knowledge is added to the Palace.

But that’s just my opinion pretty sure alot of people will disagree with this lmao

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No I agree. I honestly don’t even see what more proof needs to be presented, a mirror of the real world that is confirmed to be a universe, with galaxies & stars, it sounds incredibly straightforward.

 

[Stupits]

I think Dargoo still makes the most sense.

care to explain why?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Dargoo In a way this statement is already enough proof if you think about it . And making Persona Palaces Low 2C because of it wouldn’t automatically make every other 4A Parallel universes Low 2C because the persona verse works differently from them. Dargoo if you think about it it’s impossible for us to count all those stars right? then how do you think the Palace rulers did it? That alone is enough to show that even things outside of their knowledge is added to the Palace.

Well first off, you're quoting Solacis' analysis of a statement, not a statement.

The statements don't actually explain that they mirror reality in every capacity (most importantly size), or are perfect mirrors of reality to begin with. This is all based on, at least from my conversation with Solacis, assumptions you guys are making based on given statements, and these assumptions can be applied to tons of 4-A verses on the site.

Let me go through every single statement and post them individually here to explain why I think there's a difference between what the statements are actually saying and what's being extrapolated here.

The place's based on the real world, after all. Anywhere that's not warped looks just like normal.

Ryuji does not state palaces are the same size as the real world. He does not state they "mirror" the real world. He just says that they are "based" on the real world (he doesn't say they're based on the universe, either). Something that is "based" on something else does not need to fully encompass that other thing, especially in size.

Ryuji also has barely any standing when it comes to understanding the nature of the metaverse when compared to Morgana or any of the Velvet Room crew, so I'd say this statement is the weakest out of any given.

I can think of plenty of "mirror dimensions" that mimic the real world all over the site, however we don't grant them Low 2-C status just because they are based on the real world.

A palace is a reflection of how its owner views the real world.

You may not want to believe it, but this is another reality as viewed through Madarame's eyes.

These statements suffer from lack of detail or explanation. It just says that palaces are a reflection of perception - which can be interpreted in such a large number of ways that it isn't funny; there's no reason for us to fill in the blanks because Morgana and Ann didn't actually get into the specifics of how large palaces actually are. I don't think that this "supports" the argument here in any sense other than "you can make just about any argument about palaces and not have it contradict this".

I could just as easily make an argument about palaces being the current sizes we take them at, slap these statements on there about them being based on the user's perception, and the statements would be equally true and have equally nothing to do with my claims.

 

[Stupits]

Well first off, you're quoting Solacis' analysis of a statement, not a statement.

The statements don't actually explain that they mirror reality in every capacity (most importantly size), or are perfect mirrors of reality to begin with. This is all based on, at least from my conversation with Solacis, assumptions you guys are making based on given statements, and these assumptions can be applied to tons of 4-A verses on the site.

Let me go through every single statement and post them individually here to explain why I think there's a difference between what the statements are actually saying and what's being extrapolated here.



Ryuji does not state palaces are the same size as the real world. He does not state they "mirror" the real world. He just says that they are "based" on the real world (he doesn't say they're based on the universe, either). Something that is "based" on something else does not need to fully encompass that other thing, especially in size.

Ryuji also has barely any standing when it comes to understanding the nature of the metaverse when compared to Morgana or any of the Velvet Room crew, so I'd say this statement is the weakest out of any given.

I can think of plenty of "mirror dimensions" that mimic the real world all over the site, however we don't grant them Low 2-C status just because they are based on the real world.




These statements suffer from lack of detail or explanation. It just says that palaces are a reflection of perception - which can be interpreted in such a large number of ways that it isn't funny; there's no reason for us to fill in the blanks because Morgana and Ann didn't actually get into the specifics of how large palaces actually are. I don't think that this "supports" the argument here in any sense other than "you can make just about any argument about palaces and not have it contradict this".

I could just as easily make an argument about palaces being the current sizes we take them at, slap these statements on there about them being based on the user's perception, and the statements would be equally true and have equally nothing to do with my claims.

Ok so I understand the part where this can be applied to alot of verses. Tbh there isn’t much of a problem with that then just make them low 2C as well. Another thing is you didn’t really answer how Palace rulers were able to Imagine all those stars. Unless I missed smth in your explanation

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's... Not a solution. Those verses don't have it applied because as a rule of thumb this is not considered a real Low 2-C feat. "Stars exist and it's called a world" is not evidence for Low 2-C, it's evidence for 4-A.

It's like 4-A Dimensions literally don't exist under your standards.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In place of Sol, I’m going to respond to Dragoo, because there’s a lot I disagree there.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ok so I understand the part where this can be applied to alot of verses. Tbh there isn’t much of a problem with that then just make them low 2C as well. Another thing is you didn’t really answer how Palace rulers were able to Imagine all those stars. Unless I missed smth in your explanation

Well, my point of bringing up this not being applied to other verses was to show a more wider site consensus on this not being acceptable evidence for Low 2-C, not to suggest that we actually go out and change nearly every 4-A pocket reality feat to Low 2-C when it can be argued to mimic reality.

I mean, on the assumption that they can imagine all of those stars, I guess I just don't think it matters when it comes to judging Low 2-C? Why would I need to debunk a 4-A feat in order to demonstrate that something isn't Low 2-C?

In place of Sol, I’m going to respond to Dragoo, because there’s a lot I disagree there.

Alright. Let's just make sure to keep it to the topic of Low 2-C palaces so we don't get too sidetracked with debate.

 

[Stupits]

That's... Not a solution. Those verses don't have it applied because as a rule of thumb this is not considered a real Low 2-C feat. "Stars exist and it's called a world" is not evidence for Low 2-C, it's evidence for 4-A.

It's like 4-A Dimensions literally don't exist under your standards.

I said that it’s impossible for them to imagine all those stars therefore its safe to assume that things they don’t have knowledge on are still added to the palaces, which means the universe would also be there. I never said it was low 2C because of stars

 

[Stupits]

Dargoo I think you missed the point I was trying to say that they couldn’t have imagined all those stars. therefore showing that things they don’t know about are still there. but if you still don’t understand i’ll let Milly take over since he can probably do a better job than me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I said that it’s impossible for them to imagine all those stars therefore its safe to assume that things they don’t have knowledge on are still added to the palaces

This is just a side note - but I'm curious. Since we know palaces are sectioned off areas of the metaverse, that palaces have large amounts of area that isn't affected by the ruler's distortion - what's to say that the starscapes we see in Okumura's palace and Anime!Shido's palace aren't something they created but rather something that already existed as a part of the metaverse that Yaldy just sectioned off for them?

Them creating things that aren't a part of their cognition/perception is at worst a contradiction of what you guys are establishing here to start with and at best isn't grounds for us to assume they create literally everything they can't think about. I don't think it contributes or detracts from your argument here.

 

[Stupits]

This is just a side note - but I'm curious. Since we know palaces are sectioned off areas of the metaverse, that palaces have large amounts of area that isn't affected by the ruler's distortion - what's to say that the starscapes we see in Okumura's palace and Anime!Shido's palace aren't something they created but rather something that already existed as a part of the metaverse that Yaldy just sectioned off for them?

Them creating things that aren't a part of their cognition/perception is at worst a contradiction of what you guys are establishing here to start with and at best isn't grounds for us to assume they create literally everything they can't think about. I don't think it contributes or detracts from your argument here.

So your argument is that Yaldy made the things they can’t comprehend? Well first of all there isn’t any evidence that its true but ngl it does kinda make sense. another thing is that when The pt beat the palace rulers the whole thing gets destroyed even the stars. So isn’t safe to assume that even if Yaldy made them the Palace rulers have control of them afterwards?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The statements don't actually explain that they mirror reality in every capacity (most importantly size), or are perfect mirrors of reality to begin with. This is all based on, at least from my conversation with Solacis, assumptions you guys are making based on given statements, and these assumptions can be applied to tons of 4-A verses on the site.

That is completely false. Ryuji outright said that anywhere that isn’t warped looks just like normal, which is backed up by the fact that the Interrogation Room (outside of the normal distortion) was a pivotal point in convicting Akechi. If it was not completely perfect, then that plan wouldn’t have worked. Especially against Akechi, a genius detective with knowledge in the Metaverse since before the series even started. Similarly, the numerous stars in the sky in not only Futaba’s, Okumura’s, and Shido’s “are just like normal”, with absolutely no evidence to contest this.

Ryuji does not state palaces are the same size as the real world. He does not state they "mirror" the real world. He just says that they are "based" on the real world (he doesn't say they're based on the universe, either). Something that is "based" on something else does not need to fully encompass that other thing, especially in size.

Ryuji also has barely any standing when it comes to understanding the nature of the metaverse when compared to Morgana or any of the Velvet Room crew, so I'd say this statement is the weakest out of any given.

I can think of plenty of "mirror dimensions" that mimic the real world all over the site, however we don't grant them Low 2-C status just because they are based on the real world.

Again, this is debunked by the fact that Yusuke confirms this is a universe, and there is scenery extending outside the initial palace that is never at one point noted to be any different from the original. There are buildings, stars, and galaxies displayed, it’s far fetched to say it isn’t a universe when the scenery itself debunks this.

Second, that is incredibly false. By that point in the game, you are on the third to last Palace within the game, in which multiple months have passed. That Ryuji is more than experienced in the Metaverse, who (and by extension every other PT, especially Makoto, Morgana, and Joker, who decided that plan) was already knowledgeable in it since they went to Mementos, which is early game. Being taught by Morgana himself, there’s no way you can claim he’s inexperienced in the mechanics of the Metaverse.

Persona mechanics cannot be compared to others, as again, stated by Maki’s desires (the same thing Palace’s are constructed of), created an entirely different universe, stated by Nanjo, confirmed by Philemon and Maruki, who are far more knowledgeable on this. Philemon has said numerous times that human souls have had power over reality, Maruki (and Yusuke) say that EVERYONE has a cognitive reality as to which they see reality different, and lastly, Morgana says that that the world (synonymous with universe) is made of cognition, stating it can be freely remade (Palaces). A world made by cognition, and a mirror of the real world.


These statements suffer from lack of detail or explanation. It just says that palaces are a reflection of perception - which can be interpreted in such a large number of ways that it isn't funny; there's no reason for us to fill in the blanks because Morgana and Ann didn't actually get into the specifics of how large palaces actually are. I don't think that this "supports" the argument here in any sense other than "you can make just about any argument about palaces and not have it contradict this".

I could just as easily make an argument about palaces being the current sizes we take them at, slap these statements on there about them being based on the user's perception, and the statements would be equally true and have equally nothing to do with my claims.

Refer to again, the world is made of cognition. A reflection of your perception of the world & your reality, as again, stated by Maruki. The specifics of Palace’s have already been dealt with on numerous occasions, again, Futaba, Okumura, and Shido’s Palace prove this. The reason why Okumura’s palace is in space is because of the name “Big Bang Burger” relating to the creation of the universe as confirmed by Ann, which she stated by Shido’s Palace.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is just a side note - but I'm curious. Since we know palaces are sectioned off areas of the metaverse, that palaces have large amounts of area that isn't affected by the ruler's distortion - what's to say that the starscapes we see in Okumura's palace and Anime!Shido's palace aren't something they created but rather something that already existed as a part of the metaverse that Yaldy just sectioned off for them?

Them creating things that aren't a part of their cognition/perception is at worst a contradiction of what you guys are establishing here to start with and at best isn't grounds for us to assume they create literally everything they can't think about. I don't think it contributes or detracts from your argument here.

Burden of proof, because again, there is nothing to suggest they already existed. Again, they create & sustain their Palace’s based on their desires. Okumura creating a space station chalked full of stars debunks this.

 

[Stupits]

Burden of proof, because again, there is nothing to suggest they already existed. Again, they create & sustain their Palace’s based on their desires. Okumura creating a space station chalked full of stars debunks this.

yeah even if they didn’t create the stars it doesn’t change the fact that they have control over it

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't mean to say this in opposition of the current points (far from it, actually), but why exactly is Yusuke's statement being referred to so often?

The main thing we can gather from the statement is that the world that they live in is a universe, yes. But it's not as if he's referring to a palace in that statement, or if he's making a comparison between palaces and the universe, or even saying something that might indicate that they're all referring to "universes" when they say "world". I recall the exact scene that exchange takes place; he's literally just hanging out in a planetarium and remarking that he likes going there to learn about the "mysteries of the universe"

It's not an invalid statement, mind you. But we could already pretty handily guess that they all live in a universe, and I don't see what other information is being gained from it?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don't mean to say this in opposition of the current points (far from it, actually), but why exactly is Yusuke's statement being referred to so often?

The main thing we can gather from the statement is that the world that they live in is a universe, yes. But it's not as if he's referring to a palace in that statement, or if he's making a comparison between palaces and the universe, or even saying something that might indicate that they're all referring to "universes" when they say "world". I recall the exact scene that exchange takes place; he's literally just hanging out in a planetarium and remarking that he likes going there to learn about the "mysteries of the universe"

It's not an invalid statement, mind you. But we could already pretty handily guess that they all live in a universe, and I don't see what other information is being gained from it?

He confirms that the normal Persona verse has a confirmed universe, they’re in an observatory btw. That’s why we continue to point out the numerous sources that say that Palace’s are a reflection of the real world, which the word universe & world are used in tandem constantly. By Morgana, by Ryuji, Nanjo, and Maruki.

 

[DarkGrath]

Gotcha.

Again, that question wasn't meant as a criticism or argument for or against either side. I was just curious what relevance it had to the other quotes. And yeah, I recall where they are in that scene.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit

Spoiler

> That is completely false. Ryuji outright said that anywhere that isn’t warped looks just like normal, which is backed up by the fact that the Interrogation Room (outside of the normal distortion) was a pivotal point in convicting Akechi. If it was not completely perfect, then that plan wouldn’t have worked. Especially against Akechi, a genius detective with knowledge in the Metaverse since before the series even started. Similarly, the numerous stars in the sky in not only Futaba’s, Okumura’s, and Shido’s “are just like normal”, with absolutely no evidence to contest this.

Yes, the non-distorted parts of the palaces aren't distorted.

My issue isn't with Ryuji stating the obvious and is more with our regular members taking this statement to mean that palaces extend all the way to the end of the observable universe, despite Ryuji saying nothing of note that relates to that claim. The plan to convict Akechi doesn't actually need palaces to be universe-sized to work, either, just that they are large enough to cover a distance from the palace itself to the Interrogation Room, so that isn't really relevant to your claims here either.

> Again, this is debunked by the fact that Yusuke confirms this is a universe, and there is scenery extending outside the initial palace that is never at one point noted to be any different from the original. There are buildings, stars, and galaxies displayed, it’s far fetched to say it isn’t a universe when the scenery itself debunks this.

Yusuke isn't calling a palace a universe. Has basically nothing to do with palaces being that size, and is once again a painfully obvious piece of logic (the universe is the size of a universe) that is being put next to sub-standard assumptions, making them look better.

You're paradoxically telling me there is both explicit evidence that palaces are universe-sized yet also conceding to me, here, that this is an assumption that you're making based on palaces containing clearly-smaller-than-universe-sized things. This is something fundamental to both your and Sol's arguments that I'm having serious trouble understanding.

> By that point in the game, you are on the third to last Palace within the game, in which multiple months have passed. That Ryuji is more than experienced in the Metaverse, who (and by extension every other PT, especially Makoto, Morgana, and Joker, who decided that plan) was already knowledgeable in it since they went to Mementos, which is early game. Being taught by Morgana himself, there’s no way you can claim he’s inexperienced in the mechanics of the Metaverse.

I'll concede this. I do think this can be debated further, but that point was never really integral to my argument and was more tacked-on than anything else, and I'd rather not waste both of our time debating something like that.

> Persona mechanics cannot be compared to others, as again, stated by Maki’s desires (the same thing Palace’s are constructed of), created an entirely different universe, stated by Nanjo, confirmed by Philemon and Maruki, who are far more knowledgeable on this. Philemon has said numerous times that human souls have had power over reality, Maruki (and Yusuke) say that EVERYONE has a cognitive reality as to which they see reality different, and lastly, Morgana says that that the world (synonymous with universe) is made of cognition, stating it can be freely remade (Palaces). A world made by cognition, and a mirror of the real world.

The mechanics the pocket realities are created on have, from what I've seen you guys argue thusfar, have nothing to do with the arguments for size being made here. If we're saying that, if a pocket reality mimics the real world, it must be Low 2-C, it wouldn't matter if cognition or [INSERT GENERIC VERSE MECHANIC] accomplished it.

Please quote, in exact wording, where Philemon mentions the word universe when she makes that remark. Unless you're reffering to a scan that hasn't been provided yet, in which case just provide that for me. Otherwise I'm not sure why you're telling me she said something she didn't. Additionally, the words "reality" and "world" don't count, and as I've already explained you can't "prove" a word is defined a certain way in a verse because it's used that way once or twice.

Mimicking / mirroring the real world has nothing to do with being universe-sized.

> Refer to again, the world is made of cognition. A reflection of your perception of the world & your reality, as again, stated by Maruki. The specifics of Palace’s have already been dealt with on numerous occasions, again, Futaba, Okumura, and Shido’s Palace prove this. The reason why Okumura’s palace is in space is because of the name “Big Bang Burger” relating to the creation of the universe as confirmed by Ann, which she stated by Shido’s Palace.

So, okay. You explain that palaces and the real world are a product of cognition. I bring up that the palace being a product of cognition and being based on the real world isn't an idea incompatible with them being smaller than the observable universe, and it functioning on the same mechanics as the real world doesn't mean it has to be universe sized. You explain that palaces and the real world are a product of cognition.

Instead of, like I've seen as a trend on this thread for a while, restating the same argument pieces, could you at least go into explaining the reasoning behind the jump from "some of the rules that apply to the universe apply to palaces" to "palaces are the same size as the universe"? With some extra citations to help make it clearer, please? I already have a concept of what is being argued here and appreciate the continuous clarifications, I'm mostly looking for context/citations that have otherwise not been provided ye.

As for "have been dealt on numerous occasions". Nothing is gained from claiming that one another's arguments have been "dealt with" and just leaving it at that. I'm doing my best not to be dismissive of your arguments, I would appreciate it if that was done in kind.

Cheers! I feel like this is a bit of a progression from where I left off with Sol (even conceded a point), but there's some parts that would benefit a ton from additional context or evidence.

 

[Stupits]

basically you want Milly to provide more scans

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Responding tomorrow.

 

[DMUA]

The more this goes on, the more the idea that palaces are all universes seems to sit on shakey ground

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sol will be responding soon in my stead.

 

[Solacis]

@Dargoo_Faust Sorry if I've missed addressing certain parts of your argument when I typed up my response last night. I was still a bit tired, so that may have been why. I'll try to address them here, on top of the newer arguments you've brought up.

As I assume we've settled the first point regarding Palaces being their own pocket realities, I'll leave that be.

Well, they actually aren't given the moniker "alternate/parallel" in that interview - which while it doesn't seem that important on the surface level, both of these words have heavy connotation relating to parallel universe theory - and when you quote them it makes it seem like the statement itself has this connotation.

The interview does actually refer to them as parallel worlds. The exact quote I intended for you to focus on was: "This will cause another version of the school to manifest in a parallel world as his Palace". As for the uncommon use of the word "world" ("sekai" in Japanese) to refer to the whole universe, it should be noted that practically every in-verse reference to the real world's universe uses either "world" or "reality". Philemon directly refers to the physical universe as a "world". Tatsuya in Eternal Punishment also refers to an alternate timeline as "another reality". Morgana's farewell speech to the Phantom Thieves even uses both terms interchangeably. Additionally, Morgana even makes it clear that the "real world" is no different from all the worlds formed by cognition. In all cases of the word "world" or "reality" being used, it always refers to the whole universe. In Persona Q2, the alternate timeline that Kotone Shiomi originates from is also always referred to as another world, and the Persona 3 Portable guidebook even directly references parallel worlds. Is this enough to make the connection to the parallel universe theory? Edit: Late addition, but Ryoji (as Nyx Avatar) also refers to the real world as a universe.

In the first place, why is it necessary to prove that the real world of Persona is of universal size? I'm genuinely curious. It's not a pocket reality, it's a direct parallel to our real world as made clear by the fact that it's set in real-life locations (Tokyo, Hawaii, the planet Earth, etc.), contains figures from real-life history (Yoshitsune, Carl Jung, etc.), and directly references real-life theories and philosophies (Jungian psychology, many worlds theory, big bang theory, etc.). Even Caroline and Justine outright state that the Big Bang actually occurred, and considering how this is obviously in reference to the actual big bang having created the universe, and not some purely physical explosion of energy like, say, TTGL's Infinity Big Bang Storm or Vegeta's Big Bang Attack, I don't know how much more can be said about how the real world should naturally be considered a Low 2-C structure.

We don't extrapolate from real-life philosophy to grant tiers or ratings on our site (see: various debates on Platonic Concepts being 1-A). If "humanity" truly reflects "the universe", this is something that needs to be individually proven, not assumed based on word choice that reflects a specific philosophy. In the same vein, if the Metaverse was described as a "platonic ideal", it would not be upgraded to 1-A.

What more needs to be proven? Humanity's cognitions are what create and reshape the world/reality (which equates to the universe, as I established above), both Morgana and Philemon outright say this in scans already posted above. It's not a matter of just extrapolating directly from philosophy, we have in-universe examples of the macrocosm and microcosm philosophy being in full tangible effect. Even gods in-universe reference this relationship between humanity and the universe. Take for example Virochana/Vairocana's questioning of the Persona 2 Eternal Punishment crew:



He applauds Maya's correct answer, and in his elaboration, clearly states that humans themselves are equated to the universe, and that the universal self (Atman) is one and the same with the ultimate reality of the universe (Brahman). Both Zula and Virochana reference the same underlying concept through different philosophies; how can it be more clear that said underlying concept is a truth of how the verse operates? That's not even mentioning how Virochana clearly equates Brahman (the macrocosm) with the universe, which only further validates everything I've said above.

Furthermore, compare this to if Maya chooses the wrong answer to Virochana's questioning:



"Know that to deny oneness with Brahman is in other words to return thyself and the universe to nothingness." In simpler terms, the act of denying the fact that humanity is one with the universe, is the same as denying the existence of both humanity and the universe itself, which would in turn cause said belief to become real and erase both from existence.

Now, I've established that the real world and cognitive worlds are by nature the same thing, and that the real world is referred to as a universe by characters that would naturally be knowledgeable on the subject. I've also addressed the argument stating that the use of the words "world" and "reality" don't necessarily mean "universe", proven false in this context due to the fact that said terms are used to refer to the same space-time that Virochana states is a universe, in addition to Caroline and Justine's reference to the actual occurrence of the Big Bang creating the universe.

I believe I've addressed everything of note. But if I missed anything notable, please let me know.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Thanks for the response! I’ll be replying again tomorrow; will be heading to sleep right now.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Solacis

Spoiler

The interview does actually refer to them as parallel worlds. The exact quote I intended for you to focus on was: "This will cause another version of the school to manifest in a parallel world as his Palace".

I've already conceded this to @Starversal as a flub on my part, sort of confused on what it was brought up again.

Granted my point isn't very much on the vague connotative implications of the modifiers for the words - but rather that a word cannot be "proven" to only mean a certain thing in the context of a verse, unless it's some kind of made-up word that the author came up with and defined themselves. It ultimately doesn't matter how many times the word "world" is used to refer to "universe" (I think the number of times this actually happens in the verse is being exaggerated, see below), that does not mean we should assume the word world means universe regardless of the context it's said in, especially since the usage of that word in that way is so uncommon linguistically outside of our battleboarding sphere.

I don't think, outside of directly calling palaces universes directly, that examples of people calling a universe "world" is evidence that "world always means universe", regardless of how often this is done. That's kind of the crux of my problems with this CRT and something I've mentioned since my original comment, here. I don't believe in 'linguistic scaling' because linguistics doesn't operate like that in any capacity.

Is this enough to make the connection to the parallel universe theory?

I've also addressed the argument stating that the use of the words "world" and "reality" don't necessarily mean "universe", proven false in this context due to the fact that said terms are used to refer to the same space-time that Virochana states is a universe, in addition to Caroline and Justine's reference to the actual occurrence of the Big Bang creating the universe.

Like I said above - that bit about connotation wasn't supposed to be a major part of my argument but rather just a secondary issue brought up, much like with Ryuji's quote. Kind of regretting bringing it up at this point since it seems like it was focused on rather than my main point.

I'll kind of be straightforward with what I'm asking here. Is there a single instance of a palace (and not the metaverse as a whole) being called a universe, not a world or reality? If the answer to that is "no", then I don't think there's sufficient evidence.

I don't think that Shinji Yamamoto and the other writers of Persona 5 have their own dictionary of the Japanese language in which we're "proving" what words mean in it, and that they have rewritten the meaning of the word Sekai to mean "synonym for the universe" just for their works. World, as a word, has no specificity of size attached to it - it being used 1, 2, 10, 15 times to describe the real universe does not change that, just like if the word "yellow" was used to describe a car 1, 2, 10, 15 times it wouldn't mean that yellow as a word must always refer to a car.

In the first place, why is it necessary to prove that the real world of Persona is of universal size?

Uh. It isn't necessary. Did I say it was necessary? Because multiple times throughout this CRT my response to people giving examples of the Persona Universe being a Universe has been more along the lines of "of course it is, why are we wasting our time proving the obvious". I'm not sure where this confusion sprung up from - just because I disagree with palaces being Low 2-C doesn't mean I don't think that the regular universe isn't universe sized.

Humanity's cognitions are what create and reshape the world/reality (which equates to the universe, as I established above), both Morgana and Philemon outright say this in scans already posted above.

Even gods in-universe reference this relationship between humanity and the universe. Take for example Virochana/Vairocana's questioning of the Persona 2 Eternal Punishment crew:

I'll concede that the "real world" being a product of cognition has been demonstrably proven here. Granted, I don't think that being true really changes many of my points in regards to palaces. The argument that the collective cognition of humanity can reshape/change reality does not mean that the distorted perception of a single individual manifested in the Metaverse has the same scope as reality itself, if anything this fact would contradict the argument that Palaces are Low 2-C, and just support the Metaverse itself as something that is Low 2-C.

I feel like this point is kind of parallel to "palaces being pocket realities" not being direct evidence of "palaces being universe sized". The former is something that's extremely straightforward and a given, the latter, however, can't really be deduced from that.

Although the implications of this are interesting, at least from what you've provided from Virochana. Wouldn't this mean that the universe in Persona would cease to exist if humanity was wiped out?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dargoo still solos

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Responding soon.

 

[GokuBold]

Granted my point isn't very much on the vague connotative implications of the modifiers for the words - but rather that a word cannot be "proven" to only mean a certain thing in the context of a verse, unless it's some kind of made-up word that the author came up with and defined themselves. It ultimately doesn't matter how many times the word "world" is used to refer to "universe" (I think the number of times this actually happens in the verse is being exaggerated, see below), that does not mean we should assume the word world means universe regardless of the context it's said in, especially since the usage of that word in that way is so uncommon linguistically outside of our battleboarding sphere.

I don't think, outside of directly calling palaces universes directly, that examples of people calling a universe "world" is evidence that "world always means universe", regardless of how often this is done. That's kind of the crux of my problems with this CRT and something I've mentioned since my original comment, here. I don't believe in 'linguistic scaling' because linguistics doesn't operate like that in any capacity.

But in this context you agree like in here "I've already conceded this to @Starversal as a flub on my part, sort of confused on what it was brought up again.", that within the context of the author's statement, that the word 'world' refers to another world/another reality as in a replica of the real world, right?.

Uh. It isn't necessary. Did I say it was necessary? Because multiple times throughout this CRT my response to people giving examples of the Persona Universe being a Universe has been more along the lines of "of course it is, why are we wasting our time proving the obvious". I'm not sure where this confusion sprung up from - just because I disagree with palaces being Low 2-C doesn't mean I don't think that the regular universe isn't universe sized.

I don't think he was selecting you alone in that statement, I think he meant it in general to everyone who questions the validity of the universe in persona.

The argument that the collective cognition of humanity can reshape/change reality does not mean that the distorted perception of a single individual manifested in the Metaverse has the same scope as reality itself, if anything this fact would contradict the argument that Palaces are Low 2-C, and just support the Metaverse itself as something that is Low 2-C.

But It would not contradict the argument because:

1: When a palace becomes a palace, yaldy disconnects it from the metaverse, If I remember correctly.
2: To begin with, the distorter has to affect the cognition of other people, just like yaldy was trying to do, to change/reshape reality, unless we are talking about the reality inside a palace.
3: The cognition of many humans would be constantly battling against the cognition of that single individual, for him to overpower all of then, his cognition would need to be stronger then the cognition of all of then together.

At least this is my logic to it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But in this context you agree like in here "I've already conceded this to @Starversal as a flub on my part, sort of confused on what it was brought up again.", that within the context of the author's statement, that the word 'world' refers to another world/another reality as in a replica of the real world, right?.

I conceded to Starversal that the quote says "parallel world", I have not conceded that this in of itself means that it's a universe-sized world. Basically I discarded a part of my argument that was vestigal to the main point I was making, I didn't discard my entire argument.

I don't think he was selecting you alone in that statement, I think he meant it in general to everyone who questions the validity of the universe in persona.

Oh, my bad. It sounded like Sol was directing this to me - but if this was generally at others who requested it, yeah, Sol shouldn't need to asked for evidence on if the real universe is a universe.

The cognition of many humans would be constantly battling against the cognition of that single individual, for him to overpower all of then, his cognition would need to be stronger then the cognition of all of then together.

Wouldn't this actually not be the case, since Yaldy segregated the major palaces from the rest of the collective unconsciousness? Even then, is there proof that palaces are the palace ruler's cognition actively trumping the collective cognition of humanity, the Metaverse itself?

Also I was reffering to the reality inside the palace.

 

[Stupits]

Although the implications of this are interesting, at least from what you've provided from Virochana. Wouldn't this mean that the universe in Persona would cease to exist if humanity was wiped out?

I don’t think so because the universe is held up by the collective unconscious which existed before humanity ever did iirc. it should be in one of those scans or statements

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is going to be my last response, if I don’t feel like progress has been made, as I still feel as if nothing has been achieved.

My issue isn't with Ryuji stating the obvious and is more with our regular members taking this statement to mean that palaces extend all the way to the end of the observable universe, despite Ryuji saying nothing of note that relates to that claim. The plan to convict Akechi doesn't actually need palaces to be universe-sized to work, either, just that they are large enough to cover a distance from the palace itself to the Interrogation Room, so that isn't really relevant to your claims here either.

You cannot see the universe, correct? They can’t see the universe in the human world, however they confirm that there is one. Most statements / feats in verses often don’t have you visually seeing it either, however they make consistent claims of creating / destroying it. In this case, the argument of “not seeing the universe” sounds pretty overdone and assumes just because you can’t see it means it’s not there. The fact of the matter is, Palace’s have consistently proven to have areas far beyond their distortion, spanning stars, space, and galaxies, I see no reason to assume that they’re not universes in size, again, with Ryuji saying “anything that’s not warped looks just like normal”, with no evidence to even begin contesting this.

Yusuke isn't calling a palace a universe. Has basically nothing to do with palaces being that size, and is once again a painfully obvious piece of logic (the universe is the size of a universe) that is being put next to sub-standard assumptions, making them look better.

You're paradoxically telling me there is both explicit evidence that palaces are universe-sized yet also conceding to me, here, that this is an assumption that you're making based on palaces containing clearly-smaller-than-universe-sized things. This is something fundamental to both your and Sol's arguments that I'm having serious trouble understanding.

The point of the Yusuke scan being constantly brought up is to confirm the existence of the universe in Persona, and Ryuji, again, saying that Palace’s are based off of that. I don’t understand, it’s an anti-feat for a universe to have things smaller than a universe in them? So is every verse not a universe? Again, anywhere that is not warped looks just like normal.

The words “world”, “reality” are consistently and constantly used to denote universe. Philemon says that their power created the world.

Igor referring to the word world synonymously, and reality.

Elizabeth refers to the CU as a world.

Philemon says that their power can reshape reality. This isn’t bullshit, as the Other Side (an alternative dystopian world is referred to as its own reality) is called the same thing. Tatsuya, someone who literally reset the universe, says he created another reality.

Morgana outright says reality and Mementos (which is already confirmed to be a universe even before revisions, see Yaldabaoth’s profile) is stated to be a reality again.

Akechi, who outright has experience in the Metaverse, notes that everyone is from different worlds. Confirmed by Chie, who makes it clear that in her world FeMC knows everyone, but they don’t know her. Makoto uses the word world, as well.

Marie uses the word world MULTIPLE TIMES to denote the existence of other universes.

Maki creates a world based off her desires, and alludes it to the Many Worlds theory, which is literally based off of universes.

Yusuke calls Palaces a world.

Lavenza says Mementos & the real world are “worlds”.

Maruki creates a universe where people are happier, and is referred to as a reality.

Maruki uses the phrase “cognitive world”. And that tapping into it could change how they view reality, like how Palace’s make the user see reality differently.

As you can see, it has not been used “once or twice”, it has been used since the first game. There is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that world & reality mean universe in this context, quite literally, from Persona 1, to Persona 5 Royal.

 

[Solacis]

Granted my point isn't very much on the vague connotative implications of the modifiers for the words - but rather that a word cannot be "proven" to only mean a certain thing in the context of a verse, unless it's some kind of made-up word that the author came up with and defined themselves. It ultimately doesn't matter how many times the word "world" is used to refer to "universe" (I think the number of times this actually happens in the verse is being exaggerated, see below), that does not mean we should assume the word world means universe regardless of the context it's said in, especially since the usage of that word in that way is so uncommon linguistically outside of our battleboarding sphere.

I have to disagree with your assertion that the word "world" cannot be used to explicitly only refer to a space of universal size, just because it isn't a unique term coined by the writers. Every instance of the word "world" and "reality" being used prior to Persona 5 has always been in reference to the entire universe. There hasn't been a single time, in all of my rewatches and replays of the games (admittedly only as far as I can remember), that the aforementioned words have been used to refer to something as limited as, say, the planet. Since that is the case, why can it not be said that the writers intended for it to only refer to a space of universal size, when it has only ever been used in that manner? Unless scans are brought up of either word being used to refer to anything less than a universal space, then there should be no reason to doubt what the writers intended.

I don't think that Shinji Yamamoto and the other writers of Persona 5 have their own dictionary of the Japanese language in which we're "proving" what words mean in it, and that they have rewritten the meaning of the word Sekai to mean "synonym for the universe" just for their works. World, as a word, has no specificity of size attached to it - it being used 1, 2, 10, 15 times to describe the real universe does not change that, just like if the word "yellow" was used to describe a car 1, 2, 10, 15 times it wouldn't mean that yellow as a word must always refer to a car.

This cannot be assumed. Besides the fact that the words "world" and "yellow" are a noun and adjective respectively, and thus aren't comparable through your example outside of the former being used purely metaphorically, what if the writers did in fact have such a thing? Or that even if they didn't, what proof is there that they didn't intend for the word to mean what I've been showing them to mean? Their intentions are unknowable, and so ultimately this entire paragraph is kind of pointless. I have already presented several scans of the words "world" and "reality" being used in reference to the universe, and no scans so far have contradicted this conclusion. In terms of evidence, said conclusion should already be valid, as I've noted above.

I'll concede that the "real world" being a product of cognition has been demonstrably proven here. Granted, I don't think that being true really changes many of my points in regards to palaces. The argument that the collective cognition of humanity can reshape/change reality does not mean that the distorted perception of a single individual manifested in the Metaverse has the same scope as reality itself, if anything this fact would contradict the argument that Palaces are Low 2-C, and just support the Metaverse itself as something that is Low 2-C.

I feel like this point is kind of parallel to "palaces being pocket realities" not being direct evidence of "palaces being universe sized". The former is something that's extremely straightforward and a given, the latter, however, can't really be deduced from that.

The Metaverse is just a name for the collection of all Palaces, the real world isn't part of it. The collective cognition of humanity affects Mementos, not the Metaverse, and Mementos is a single Palace. This further supports what I've already been saying. Mementos being universal in size despite only having visible distortions underground would give credence to the assertion that all Palaces, regardless of the size of distortion, would be universal in size as well.

Remember that a Palace is formed from cognition before it is changed by distortion. Take for example, Shido's Palace. There is absolutely no way he knows the details on literally everything going on in Japan, yet his Palace contains it regardless, because he unconsciously knows it exists and is aware of its scale. A bigger example would be Maruki's Palace. The entire alternate reality he enforced on the real world is formed entirely of his own cognition, as it originated form his Palace. Maruki is in no way an astrophysicist, or anyone who could actually know the full extent of the universe, yet his alternate reality clearly contained one, as the entirety of the real world had to be reverted to its original state by Lavenza once he was defeated.

This is what Morgana means by areas outside of the distortion still being made of cognition; cognition is an unconscious part of the mind, and as we know, humanity's unconscious is shared. At this point, there is no reason to believe that any Palace would be arbitrarily smaller in scale considering all of them clearly refer to the same 'template' in the collective unconscious.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It'd be helpful on my response time if I wasn't debating two people simultaneously, so it'll be a bit before I can fully respond to both Sol and Milly's posts.

Since you guys are, essentially, making the same arguments, if you don't mind me just continuing discussion with just Sol or Milly I can probably get out a response before the end of the day, otherwise I'm kind of bogged down until tomorrow. I'd prefer to debate Sol mainly since he's the OP and has been making arguments that are easier for me to understand, personally.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is just "Linguistic Powerscaling" again. You can't take a word being used to mean one thing in a specific context, and then "powerscale" the meaning of that word to completely different contexts.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

“Specific context”
I have given damn near up towards 20 examples of world & reality being used to mean universe. If that is specific to you, then I really have nothing left to say to you, out of respect for the rules of this site.