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Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
- Status
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Hi.
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Still Wednesday on my end as well.
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You guys are itching for the colosseum gates to open up, huh. I understand the feeling.
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Give him time, guys. He’s a busy person, and for a good reason.
Regarding the Satanael infinite stamina thing, the argument that it’s an outlier doesn’t make any sense when it is a one-time powerup that appears for only a few minutes, gives a massive buff, and never has another appearance before or after. However, I’ve still already detailed why I don’t agree with it regardless; it still feels like a bit too much of an extrapolation given the very limited evidence and context.
Regarding the Satanael infinite stamina thing, the argument that it’s an outlier doesn’t make any sense when it is a one-time powerup that appears for only a few minutes, gives a massive buff, and never has another appearance before or after. However, I’ve still already detailed why I don’t agree with it regardless; it still feels like a bit too much of an extrapolation given the very limited evidence and context.
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oh so its not an outlier but its not accepted right? also doesn't what you just said describe an outlier? please correct me if i'm misunderstanding smth
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An outlier is a statistic that is inconsistent via being unnaturally higher or lower than the other statistics demonstrated at that level.
The problem, therefore, with calling it an outlier is that Satanael physically doesn’t have any other statistics for stamina to go off of. It can be unreliable or invalid if it is justified by the only feat at that level, but it can’t be an outlier, because there aren’t any other feats to go off of at that level.
That doesn’t mean it can be used if it’s not reliable or valid. And as I mentioned, I still don’t agree with it personally.
The problem, therefore, with calling it an outlier is that Satanael physically doesn’t have any other statistics for stamina to go off of. It can be unreliable or invalid if it is justified by the only feat at that level, but it can’t be an outlier, because there aren’t any other feats to go off of at that level.
That doesn’t mean it can be used if it’s not reliable or valid. And as I mentioned, I still don’t agree with it personally.
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Now that you mention it sinful shell didnt require any sp either right?
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Yeah, it didn’t, IIRC. Though this falls into the same arguments I mentioned earlier.
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what about his ingame moves cant that be used as a basis?
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Again, Satanael doesn't use any other skills.
Well, technically, he does use other skills in NG+. But there's an extremely obvious distinction between the NG+ Satanael and the original one. Plus, also probably complicated (albeit technically not impossible) to use NG+ stuff without further evidence for its canonicity, like with the Elizabeth fight in Persona 3.
Well, technically, he does use other skills in NG+. But there's an extremely obvious distinction between the NG+ Satanael and the original one. Plus, also probably complicated (albeit technically not impossible) to use NG+ stuff without further evidence for its canonicity, like with the Elizabeth fight in Persona 3.
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ok that makes sense for me. But either way we have to wait for Sol's explanation first.
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Of course. I’m fully willing to hear his arguments when he’s available, and I’m willing to shift my opinions if I agree with his arguments.
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If I wasn't clear early I still mostly agree with Sol's proposals although I will admit scaling speed or AP to attack animations can be very dubious (especially in RPGs).
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he wasn’t changing ap based on attack animations only range iirc
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- Thread starter
- #218
Alright! Now that I'm back and am in a fairly good mood, I can finally get around to responding to @Dargoo_Faust's post. Now, I'm still a teensy bit busy, so I'm going to try and keep this as concise as reasonably possible. As requested, we'll be handling this one point at a time, starting with...
Before getting into anything else regarding this topic, I'd like to clear up a possible misunderstanding of what Palaces actually are. That is, Palaces are NOT the building that features as the main dungeon for that point in the game, but rather, "Palace" refers to the entire world that said building exists within. It is stated by Shadow Shido that Palaces exist separately from Mementos, as they had been segregated away from it by Yaldabaoth.
The Metaverse is the name for the sum of these alternate worlds under Yaldabaoth's control. I know that there are many who believe that the Metaverse is a single world with the various 'Palaces' being scattered across it, but this is fundamentally untrue, as shown by the fact that several of these Palaces would end up contradicting each other if that was the case. This is most clearly seen when one takes into account that every Palace in the game (save for Okumura's) is located in the general area of Tokyo, which in Shido's Palace is completely flooded. Now, this is all mostly so that I'm sure everyone is on the same page, but having established that every Palace is its own world, we can get to the more relevant points of discussion.
@DarkGrath more or less said some of what I'd like to say regarding this topic, so I'll sum up his main argument regarding it. Palaces are on several occasions referred to as "alternate/parallel worlds", and we know this is indisputable fact considering it is flat-out stated to be so in an interview with the game's director:
As far as I know, parallel worlds are often considered universal in size by default (correct me if I'm wrong), yet even if this weren't necessarily the case, there is also the fact that every Palace is clearly above planetary in size, which would be the standard assumption concerning the use of the word "world" (an assumption referenced by DMUA earlier in the thread). Otherwise, it is rather odd to assume that a Palace just arbitrarily stops at some random point between multi-solar system size and universal, which would be the other assumption concerning the use of "world". Take this screenshot of the night sky in Shido's Palace, for example:
Just from this alone, Shido's Palace is confirmed to contain at least several galaxies. Compare this to this screenshot of the night sky in the real world.
Considering the statements of Palaces directly mirroring the real world, and how just the visible size of a single Palace has already demonstrated itself as being far beyond planetary, equal to the visible size of the real world, is it really out of the question for Palaces to be perfect mirrors of the real world, and thus be of universal size?
As for the topic of whether the real world is even considered a universe in size, in Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, Zula refers to all of space as a macrocosm, which is defined as "the whole of a complex structure, especially the world or the universe, contrasted with a small or representative part of it".
In the same line, he refers to "humanity" as a microcosm, which would lead us to the philosophical concept of the "macrocosm and microcosm" which refers to a vision of the universe where the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, in this case, "humanity" reflecting "the universe". This fits in line perfectly with Morgana's statements of how everything is a product of cognition, and how Philemon consistently references humanity's ability to reshape the universe. Consider also that in P2:IS, Brahma states that the macrocosm and microcosm is one and the same.
Consider also how human minds are all fundamentally connected through the Collective Unconscious, and that the entire Metaverse stems off from the Collective Unconscious through Mementos. Then take into account that Morgana's reference to the real world being a product of cognition specifically includes "not just the Metaverse". This ties in the previous references to the relationship between macrocosm and microcosm to the functions of the Metaverse itself (i.e. cognition), and would thus give further context to how Palaces would thusly be perfect mirrors of the real world, save for the respective Palace Ruler's distortion warping the contents.
To sum up, Palaces are alternate spaces from each other which perfectly parallel the real world, which is referred to as a universe, in which all of space is a macrocosm, which is stated to be "one and the same" with the microcosm that is humanity, which ties into the nature of cognition, which is the basis by which Palaces function.
Low 2-C Palaces
Before getting into anything else regarding this topic, I'd like to clear up a possible misunderstanding of what Palaces actually are. That is, Palaces are NOT the building that features as the main dungeon for that point in the game, but rather, "Palace" refers to the entire world that said building exists within. It is stated by Shadow Shido that Palaces exist separately from Mementos, as they had been segregated away from it by Yaldabaoth.
The Metaverse is the name for the sum of these alternate worlds under Yaldabaoth's control. I know that there are many who believe that the Metaverse is a single world with the various 'Palaces' being scattered across it, but this is fundamentally untrue, as shown by the fact that several of these Palaces would end up contradicting each other if that was the case. This is most clearly seen when one takes into account that every Palace in the game (save for Okumura's) is located in the general area of Tokyo, which in Shido's Palace is completely flooded. Now, this is all mostly so that I'm sure everyone is on the same page, but having established that every Palace is its own world, we can get to the more relevant points of discussion.
@DarkGrath more or less said some of what I'd like to say regarding this topic, so I'll sum up his main argument regarding it. Palaces are on several occasions referred to as "alternate/parallel worlds", and we know this is indisputable fact considering it is flat-out stated to be so in an interview with the game's director:
As far as I know, parallel worlds are often considered universal in size by default (correct me if I'm wrong), yet even if this weren't necessarily the case, there is also the fact that every Palace is clearly above planetary in size, which would be the standard assumption concerning the use of the word "world" (an assumption referenced by DMUA earlier in the thread). Otherwise, it is rather odd to assume that a Palace just arbitrarily stops at some random point between multi-solar system size and universal, which would be the other assumption concerning the use of "world". Take this screenshot of the night sky in Shido's Palace, for example:
Just from this alone, Shido's Palace is confirmed to contain at least several galaxies. Compare this to this screenshot of the night sky in the real world.
Considering the statements of Palaces directly mirroring the real world, and how just the visible size of a single Palace has already demonstrated itself as being far beyond planetary, equal to the visible size of the real world, is it really out of the question for Palaces to be perfect mirrors of the real world, and thus be of universal size?
As for the topic of whether the real world is even considered a universe in size, in Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, Zula refers to all of space as a macrocosm, which is defined as "the whole of a complex structure, especially the world or the universe, contrasted with a small or representative part of it".
In the same line, he refers to "humanity" as a microcosm, which would lead us to the philosophical concept of the "macrocosm and microcosm" which refers to a vision of the universe where the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, in this case, "humanity" reflecting "the universe". This fits in line perfectly with Morgana's statements of how everything is a product of cognition, and how Philemon consistently references humanity's ability to reshape the universe. Consider also that in P2:IS, Brahma states that the macrocosm and microcosm is one and the same.
Consider also how human minds are all fundamentally connected through the Collective Unconscious, and that the entire Metaverse stems off from the Collective Unconscious through Mementos. Then take into account that Morgana's reference to the real world being a product of cognition specifically includes "not just the Metaverse". This ties in the previous references to the relationship between macrocosm and microcosm to the functions of the Metaverse itself (i.e. cognition), and would thus give further context to how Palaces would thusly be perfect mirrors of the real world, save for the respective Palace Ruler's distortion warping the contents.
To sum up, Palaces are alternate spaces from each other which perfectly parallel the real world, which is referred to as a universe, in which all of space is a macrocosm, which is stated to be "one and the same" with the microcosm that is humanity, which ties into the nature of cognition, which is the basis by which Palaces function.
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I don't really understand what you mean, Shido for example is 4-A, and even then he only controls parts with distortion.
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ok thanks for clarifying, I don’t see any problems with Palace rulers being low 2C
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No, Palace’s are created by said user. The distortion is what they control, but they create a complete mirror of the universe where said distortion is the most manipulated, as said by Ryuji.
Furthermore, here’s more evidence on the Persona verse having a universe:
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what does shido being 4A have to do with this? either way Sol already answered the question
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Ignore it, you guys missed the point.
Either way, i agree with Low 2-C Palaces now.
Either way, i agree with Low 2-C Palaces now.
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Give me some time but I will look at the new post today!
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I should ask... What exactly is new in the new evidence compared to the OP?
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@Solacis
Well, I'm glad we're sectioning off sections of this debate. I feel like it's integral to keeping arguments on either side easy to follow for the people who aren't debating, which is very important. Since I had a lot to say on each of your points, I'll collapse my post for brevity's sake.
Cheers!
Well, I'm glad we're sectioning off sections of this debate. I feel like it's integral to keeping arguments on either side easy to follow for the people who aren't debating, which is very important. Since I had a lot to say on each of your points, I'll collapse my post for brevity's sake.
> That is, Palaces are NOT the building that features as the main dungeon for that point in the game, but rather, "Palace" refers to the entire world that said building exists within.
Hm. This isn't a sentiment that I necessarily disagree with however I'm more confused with the evidence used to elaborate it. Shido explains that palaces are "sectioned off" from the "world" (The Metaverse), however he doesn't actually explain, at least in the scan provided, that Palaces extend outwards indefinitely/as far as the ruler imagines, nor does he comment on the size of these "sectioned off" areas, and this was the major bit of evidence I was concerned about. While this does somewhat establish them as being pocket realities, that's already something we've accepted long ago and I don't think that needs further elaboration.
I do agree that this segregated area doesn't necessarily have to just encompass the distorted building we see the thieves infiltrate - however there has been (at least so far on this thread) no blanket statements telling us how far this area really extends, beyond Morgana commenting thatShido's Sae's (haha, brain fart) palace includes areas of the city we see from it that don't look "distorted". This is why I asked for more evidence - there seems to be a lot of "given" information here that might be obvious to people who have planned this CRT, however it needs to be obviously proven for the profiles so we don't confuse browsing users.
So I will agree that the claim "Palaces are sectioned off areas in the Metaverse that don't physically overlap, and can be considered as pocket realities in that sense." I do not think this claim being sufficiently proven sufficiently proves Low 2-C, but that's what the rest of your post is for.
> Palaces are on several occasions referred to as "alternate/parallel worlds", and we know this is indisputable fact considering it is flat-out stated to be so in an interview with the game's director
Well, they actually aren't given the moniker "alternate/parallel" in that interview - which while it doesn't seem that important on the surface level, both of these words have heavy connotation relating to parallel universe theory - and when you quote them it makes it seem like the statement itself has this connotation. He calls them "another world". Like I've mentioned before, though "world" doesn't really mean much in of itself, and it is not very commonly used in the Japanese (Sekai) or English language to describe the whole universe.
(EDIT): Ignore the strikethrough text. My 2 AM brain at work here, see below.
I feel like this is an extension of the above claim, overall, which I agree with to an extent. Continuing -
> Otherwise, it is rather odd to assume that a Palace just arbitrarily stops at some random point between multi-solar system size and universal, which would be the other assumption concerning the use of "world". Take this screenshot of the night sky in Shido's Palace, for example:
Aaand this is where I start having issues with the logic being applied here. So, going off of this, we are assuming that palaces extend out to the size of the observable universe - this is not something that is proven explicitly but it is being deduced by our members.
This logic is troubling for a number of reasons. I'll get into the issues with the argument itself before I get into the issues it'd cause for the site, since the latter doesn't really matter in the context of Persona and is more me being concerned of the implications of this bit being accepted are.
I'll start by summarizing how I'm reading this argument.
If you notice, this is actually the logic behind why the site, as a whole, does not consider starscapes to be evident of universal size. And this argument is not native to the Persona universe - any pocket reality created with any power system that has us "assuming size" can be met with this same argument and judged to be Low 2-C. However the site doesn't (in principle) do this.
World as a phrase does not carry any specific meaning of size. There can be a "world" as big as a few solar systems. There can be a "world" as small as an atom.
> Just from this alone, Shido's Palace is confirmed to contain at least several galaxies. Compare this to this screenshot of the night sky in the real world.
From all the scans that were posted, this one baffles me the most, personally. Not because it's untrue, but because, well I'm not sure what point it's supposed to make and how it relates to Shido's palace. Yes, the universe in Persona is a universe. You don't need to prove the real world is universe sized, obviously.
I guess I'm baffled as to why this applies or has anything to do with Shido's palace. Yes, Shido's palace has stars and interstellar gas clouds in the sky (I don't actually see any scans showing galaxies in your Shido citations, could you point them out for me). Yes, outside of the metaverse there are stars in the sky. No, this does not mean Shido's palace is as big as the universe, and if it did we'd need to upgrade the majority of our 4-As to Low 2-C as this argument applies to basically any pocket reality with starscapes in it.
> Considering the statements of Palaces directly mirroring the real world, and how just the visible size of a single Palace has already demonstrated itself as being far beyond planetary, equal to the visible size of the real world, is it really out of the question for Palaces to be perfect mirrors of the real world, and thus be of universal size?
I'm actually slightly annoyed that my arguments against these statements were sort of blown off and not even really considered or addressed. I don't know if this was the intent, I understand commenting on every part of an argument is tiresome, but at the same time it should at least be recognized.
I mentioned how these statements were reffering to a specific part of a specific palace. And the palaces shown thusfar are Shido's and Okumura's, not any of the earlier palaces; these statements weren't reffering to every palace and I mentioned that it was problematic that no true blanket statements were given other than, perhaps, palaces mimicking the real world - however like I mentioned the extend that they mimic the real world was not cited, as was them being "perfect mirrors of the world" in both size in scope.
I'm annoyed at this point because I was hoping for more direct evidence - however everything provided so far was already in the OP. While this post has helped me understand your argument better, it hasn't really addressed my issues with that argument, and I hope you understand that.
Palaces being universal size is something that must be proven, not assumed. I commented that the evidence in the OP was not substantial enough to prove this - reposting this evidence with more elaboration does not tackle the core problems I have with this CRT.
> In the same line, he refers to "humanity" as a microcosm, which would lead us to the philosophical concept of the "macrocosm and microcosm" which refers to a vision of the universe where the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, in this case, "humanity" reflecting "the universe".
We don't extrapolate from real-life philosophy to grant tiers or ratings on our site (see: various debates on Platonic Concepts being 1-A). If "humanity" truly reflects "the universe", this is something that needs to be individually proven, not assumed based on word choice that reflects a specific philosophy. In the same vein, if the Metaverse was described as a "platonic ideal", it would not be upgraded to 1-A.
Even assuming this is correct, wouldn't this just be evidence that the metaverse itself is Low 2-C, and not the palaces in them?
> and how Philemon consistently references humanity's ability to reshape the universe.
...
Am I missing something here? Philemon does not mention "universe" in either of these quotes. They just mentioning altering reality and space. If so, can more evidence be provided to explain what I'm missing? Is this based on the above assumption?
> This ties in the previous references to the relationship between macrocosm and microcosm to the functions of the Metaverse itself (i.e. cognition), and would thus give further context to how Palaces would thusly be perfect mirrors of the real world, save for the respective Palace Ruler's distortion warping the contents.
I'm failing to see the context here. There are assumptions being made on philosophical ideas, not stuff explicitly expressed in the work. There is assumptions being made on size, these assumptions being the most ridiculous (talking about in the context of Occam's Razor) assumptions possible simply because "choosing something between the minimum and maximum arbitrarily" doesn't sound right, despite logic dictating us to assume the minimum if no further ground for argument can be provided.
Again, I understand your argument better. That's great - but I don't feel like the issues brought up in my post were remotely addressed, talked about, or even recognized in this post. This feels more like an extension of your original argument, with the same scans, rather than a response post. Apologies if that comes off as a bit rude, but at the same time I hope you can understand it's frustrating on my end as well.
In conclusion, my evaluation of this thread hasn't really changed. I asked for further evidence on some claims that weren't provided, so obviously there wasn't much said for me to change my mind on, although I at least have a better understanding of what you're telling me.
Hm. This isn't a sentiment that I necessarily disagree with however I'm more confused with the evidence used to elaborate it. Shido explains that palaces are "sectioned off" from the "world" (The Metaverse), however he doesn't actually explain, at least in the scan provided, that Palaces extend outwards indefinitely/as far as the ruler imagines, nor does he comment on the size of these "sectioned off" areas, and this was the major bit of evidence I was concerned about. While this does somewhat establish them as being pocket realities, that's already something we've accepted long ago and I don't think that needs further elaboration.
I do agree that this segregated area doesn't necessarily have to just encompass the distorted building we see the thieves infiltrate - however there has been (at least so far on this thread) no blanket statements telling us how far this area really extends, beyond Morgana commenting that
So I will agree that the claim "Palaces are sectioned off areas in the Metaverse that don't physically overlap, and can be considered as pocket realities in that sense." I do not think this claim being sufficiently proven sufficiently proves Low 2-C, but that's what the rest of your post is for.
> Palaces are on several occasions referred to as "alternate/parallel worlds", and we know this is indisputable fact considering it is flat-out stated to be so in an interview with the game's director
(EDIT): Ignore the strikethrough text. My 2 AM brain at work here, see below.
I feel like this is an extension of the above claim, overall, which I agree with to an extent. Continuing -
> Otherwise, it is rather odd to assume that a Palace just arbitrarily stops at some random point between multi-solar system size and universal, which would be the other assumption concerning the use of "world". Take this screenshot of the night sky in Shido's Palace, for example:
Aaand this is where I start having issues with the logic being applied here. So, going off of this, we are assuming that palaces extend out to the size of the observable universe - this is not something that is proven explicitly but it is being deduced by our members.
This logic is troubling for a number of reasons. I'll get into the issues with the argument itself before I get into the issues it'd cause for the site, since the latter doesn't really matter in the context of Persona and is more me being concerned of the implications of this bit being accepted are.
I'll start by summarizing how I'm reading this argument.
- Palaces are sectioned off sections of the Metaverse, and can be proven to be pocket realities.
- We see that these sectioned off areas contain starscapes from Shido's (I have some issues with this part but it's not like it matters because Okumura's palace exists) and Okumura's palaces.
- If we make an assumption of size, we should not arbitrarily stop at some random point between multi-solar system size and universal.
- Therefore the only assumption we can make without arbitrarily choosing a size is universal.
If you notice, this is actually the logic behind why the site, as a whole, does not consider starscapes to be evident of universal size. And this argument is not native to the Persona universe - any pocket reality created with any power system that has us "assuming size" can be met with this same argument and judged to be Low 2-C. However the site doesn't (in principle) do this.
World as a phrase does not carry any specific meaning of size. There can be a "world" as big as a few solar systems. There can be a "world" as small as an atom.
> Just from this alone, Shido's Palace is confirmed to contain at least several galaxies. Compare this to this screenshot of the night sky in the real world.
From all the scans that were posted, this one baffles me the most, personally. Not because it's untrue, but because, well I'm not sure what point it's supposed to make and how it relates to Shido's palace. Yes, the universe in Persona is a universe. You don't need to prove the real world is universe sized, obviously.
I guess I'm baffled as to why this applies or has anything to do with Shido's palace. Yes, Shido's palace has stars and interstellar gas clouds in the sky (I don't actually see any scans showing galaxies in your Shido citations, could you point them out for me). Yes, outside of the metaverse there are stars in the sky. No, this does not mean Shido's palace is as big as the universe, and if it did we'd need to upgrade the majority of our 4-As to Low 2-C as this argument applies to basically any pocket reality with starscapes in it.
> Considering the statements of Palaces directly mirroring the real world, and how just the visible size of a single Palace has already demonstrated itself as being far beyond planetary, equal to the visible size of the real world, is it really out of the question for Palaces to be perfect mirrors of the real world, and thus be of universal size?
I'm actually slightly annoyed that my arguments against these statements were sort of blown off and not even really considered or addressed. I don't know if this was the intent, I understand commenting on every part of an argument is tiresome, but at the same time it should at least be recognized.
I mentioned how these statements were reffering to a specific part of a specific palace. And the palaces shown thusfar are Shido's and Okumura's, not any of the earlier palaces; these statements weren't reffering to every palace and I mentioned that it was problematic that no true blanket statements were given other than, perhaps, palaces mimicking the real world - however like I mentioned the extend that they mimic the real world was not cited, as was them being "perfect mirrors of the world" in both size in scope.
I'm annoyed at this point because I was hoping for more direct evidence - however everything provided so far was already in the OP. While this post has helped me understand your argument better, it hasn't really addressed my issues with that argument, and I hope you understand that.
Palaces being universal size is something that must be proven, not assumed. I commented that the evidence in the OP was not substantial enough to prove this - reposting this evidence with more elaboration does not tackle the core problems I have with this CRT.
> In the same line, he refers to "humanity" as a microcosm, which would lead us to the philosophical concept of the "macrocosm and microcosm" which refers to a vision of the universe where the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, in this case, "humanity" reflecting "the universe".
We don't extrapolate from real-life philosophy to grant tiers or ratings on our site (see: various debates on Platonic Concepts being 1-A). If "humanity" truly reflects "the universe", this is something that needs to be individually proven, not assumed based on word choice that reflects a specific philosophy. In the same vein, if the Metaverse was described as a "platonic ideal", it would not be upgraded to 1-A.
Even assuming this is correct, wouldn't this just be evidence that the metaverse itself is Low 2-C, and not the palaces in them?
> and how Philemon consistently references humanity's ability to reshape the universe.
...
Am I missing something here? Philemon does not mention "universe" in either of these quotes. They just mentioning altering reality and space. If so, can more evidence be provided to explain what I'm missing? Is this based on the above assumption?
> This ties in the previous references to the relationship between macrocosm and microcosm to the functions of the Metaverse itself (i.e. cognition), and would thus give further context to how Palaces would thusly be perfect mirrors of the real world, save for the respective Palace Ruler's distortion warping the contents.
I'm failing to see the context here. There are assumptions being made on philosophical ideas, not stuff explicitly expressed in the work. There is assumptions being made on size, these assumptions being the most ridiculous (talking about in the context of Occam's Razor) assumptions possible simply because "choosing something between the minimum and maximum arbitrarily" doesn't sound right, despite logic dictating us to assume the minimum if no further ground for argument can be provided.
Again, I understand your argument better. That's great - but I don't feel like the issues brought up in my post were remotely addressed, talked about, or even recognized in this post. This feels more like an extension of your original argument, with the same scans, rather than a response post. Apologies if that comes off as a bit rude, but at the same time I hope you can understand it's frustrating on my end as well.
In conclusion, my evaluation of this thread hasn't really changed. I asked for further evidence on some claims that weren't provided, so obviously there wasn't much said for me to change my mind on, although I at least have a better understanding of what you're telling me.
Cheers!
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Oh, my bad. Apologies.
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yeah np, i’ll read the rest tom im sleepy af
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I think Dargoo still makes the most sense.
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In the interview, it says “manifest in a parallel world as his Palace”, as a later description of what was called "another world"(Kamoshida's Palace). I won't be commenting any further on this thread, as to keep the discussion 1 on 1, but I just figured this needed to be cleared up.
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Gotcha. Must have missed that. Pretty sure it doesn't change most of my evaluation, but thanks for pointing that out.
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Sol’s post has convinced me a lot better of the legitimacy of universal palaces. I’m still unsure about being 100% positive on it, given that some quite small assumptions do need to be made for the evidence to fit together. But I think it’d be completely valid for a ’likely’ rating, at least.
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Btw. People, I honestly think Persona 5's MFTL+ is not legit.
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Space is just a background, nothing suggests the attacks actually traveled this far.
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Don't have enough time due to a work promotion but I saw some confusion about the Collective Unconscious and wanted to clarify some things for general knowledge's sake.
The collective unconscious is one domain that connects everything.
- A perfect example of this is the velvet room. It is said to rest between mind and matter, matter obviously being physical reality i.e., universe. It's also ethereal and corresponds and manifests depending upon the mindset of the characters. Players from different points in a timeline can exist there without causal consequence there. In PQ games protagonist are ripped from their own timelines, and placed in a separate single timeline despite the cast from P3 logically being older than p4, and later P5. The velvet room is an access point to regions such as Kadath Mandala, End Game Boss realms, and even dream worlds created by Philemon.
- As seen in evidence provided by Sol, every copy of the game is its own "other world" that exists separate from each other. Velvet rooms attendants are aware of this and understand this fact, and can use the velvet room as a meeting place between parallel realities. Even within the canonical canon universe, there is a confirmed parallel universe (which is referred to as world) to it from which the female protag for P3 comes from ("world" is once again referring to the universe here). She and Minato can exist together in space/time inside of the collective unconscious and velvet room. We know that every soul will meet again in the Sea of Souls (another name for CU) as Tatsuya tells his friend from a parallel reality they can meet again due to being connected by the CU, despite him going to a different universe. Also for some fun, P2 is touted as being a parallel world to other Shin Mega franchises.
- Some of the deepest delving into we got for the CU came from Elizabeth's journey to fight Erebus. She explains that the CU existed long before life gained sentience or even took form, it's deepest recesses existing with parallel energy of light and dark. She also claims it has innumerable faces and endless landscapes. Again coming up when discussing traversing the CU, she claims there are infinite places for her to explore, this being a person who can pretty casually move between interdimensional points in space-time.
Which gives insight into the nature of reality in persona. It's all the product of cognition. Theodore explains that The clockwork god's lair must deeper inside of the CU than even the Velvet Room, and goes on to explain that time and space are not fixed and are essentially meaningless (due to it being able to be casually warped by cognition strong enough) when explaining how Clockwork god made a replica of their school in his own world and also explaining how they exist from 3 different points in the same timeline all at once. Persona 5 has Morgana explain that both the metaverse and physical realities (which we know in Persona has an insane number of timelines) are products of cognition, and literally comes back through cognition overriding the split between the metaverse and physical reality splitting. This is why Philemon told us the power within humans is what made the "world" or universe, which is why in other translation it's "space". Obviously denoting physical existence.
The CU is the source of all cognition and the "domain" (as Liz calls it) of existence. This is why Kaddath Mandala literally sits superior to "the macrocosm". It is a countless 2-B structure that is pretty well evidenced.
The collective unconscious is one domain that connects everything.
- A perfect example of this is the velvet room. It is said to rest between mind and matter, matter obviously being physical reality i.e., universe. It's also ethereal and corresponds and manifests depending upon the mindset of the characters. Players from different points in a timeline can exist there without causal consequence there. In PQ games protagonist are ripped from their own timelines, and placed in a separate single timeline despite the cast from P3 logically being older than p4, and later P5. The velvet room is an access point to regions such as Kadath Mandala, End Game Boss realms, and even dream worlds created by Philemon.
- As seen in evidence provided by Sol, every copy of the game is its own "other world" that exists separate from each other. Velvet rooms attendants are aware of this and understand this fact, and can use the velvet room as a meeting place between parallel realities. Even within the canonical canon universe, there is a confirmed parallel universe (which is referred to as world) to it from which the female protag for P3 comes from ("world" is once again referring to the universe here). She and Minato can exist together in space/time inside of the collective unconscious and velvet room. We know that every soul will meet again in the Sea of Souls (another name for CU) as Tatsuya tells his friend from a parallel reality they can meet again due to being connected by the CU, despite him going to a different universe. Also for some fun, P2 is touted as being a parallel world to other Shin Mega franchises.
- Some of the deepest delving into we got for the CU came from Elizabeth's journey to fight Erebus. She explains that the CU existed long before life gained sentience or even took form, it's deepest recesses existing with parallel energy of light and dark. She also claims it has innumerable faces and endless landscapes. Again coming up when discussing traversing the CU, she claims there are infinite places for her to explore, this being a person who can pretty casually move between interdimensional points in space-time.
Which gives insight into the nature of reality in persona. It's all the product of cognition. Theodore explains that The clockwork god's lair must deeper inside of the CU than even the Velvet Room, and goes on to explain that time and space are not fixed and are essentially meaningless (due to it being able to be casually warped by cognition strong enough) when explaining how Clockwork god made a replica of their school in his own world and also explaining how they exist from 3 different points in the same timeline all at once. Persona 5 has Morgana explain that both the metaverse and physical realities (which we know in Persona has an insane number of timelines) are products of cognition, and literally comes back through cognition overriding the split between the metaverse and physical reality splitting. This is why Philemon told us the power within humans is what made the "world" or universe, which is why in other translation it's "space". Obviously denoting physical existence.
The CU is the source of all cognition and the "domain" (as Liz calls it) of existence. This is why Kaddath Mandala literally sits superior to "the macrocosm". It is a countless 2-B structure that is pretty well evidenced.
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Glad you could make some time around that work promotion. Congratulations on achieving it!
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Well first, prove these claims with evidence, and secondly wait, because speed isn’t the topic right now.
- Status
