Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[AxisPowerRanger]

If this part of my argument is removed, I think the only major issue I have left is the assumption that the starscapes and non-distorted parts of the palace were created by the palace users themselves and not the collective unconsciousness of humanity, since the infodump on how Palaces are sectioned off from Mementos means we don't need to assume that the palaces are purely the creation of the palace rulers themselves and not just affected sections of the Metaverse that Yaldy cut off at some arbitrary distance.

I'm just gonna tackle this part since it's relatively simple.

We've already shown how the term "Palace" is used to label the entire dimension itself - not just the main dungeon or distorted sectors of cognition. I'll be reposting this scan, but as stated by Morgana, Treasure Buds are what create the Palace once growing too strong for Yaldabaoth's liking, they are barred off from Mementos. Upon being sanctioned off, a parallel world of the Ruler's own making begins to develop. Morgana says verbatim that Palaces are created from how its owner views the world. Meaning it is a personal creation, not one where the owner's main dungeon is just plopped into a random dimension where undistorted cognitive structures are already present.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

What was the argument for Omnipresent Yog-Sothoth even?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We've already shown how the term "Palace" is used to label the entire dimension itself

Palaces are created from how its owner views the world.

This doesn't necessarily contradict the idea that there's the proper "Palace" (what distorted by the ruler and the immediate surroundings) and the dimension itself (the area sectioned off by Yaldy from the metaverse). The dimension being a larger sphere from which the palace is contained. Which would explain why we never see destruction waves hit areas that aren't directly affected by the user's cognition (Okumura's destruction wave only visibly affected the space station, Shido's only affected his own ship, etc).

Treasure Buds are what create the Palace once growing too strong for Yaldabaoth's liking, they are barred off from Mementos.

Well, all they're stating is that treasure buds "blossom into a Palace", which can describe the process/state of being that I explained above. Plus, was the team even aware of what Yaldaboath was doing at that point?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They weren't.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

This doesn't necessarily contradict the idea that there's the proper "Palace" (what distorted by the ruler and the immediate surroundings) and the dimension itself (the area sectioned off by Yaldy from the metaverse). The dimension being a larger sphere from which the palace is contained. Which would explain why we never see destruction waves hit areas that aren't directly affected by the user's cognition (Okumura's destruction wave only visibly affected the space station, Shido's only affected his own ship, etc).

When the main dungeon of a Palace dimension is erased, so is everything else. Not only does Morgana say this, but the Metaverse Navigator states this pretty much every time: "The destination has been deleted" and the Thieves can no longer go back to the dimension because it simply does not exist anymore with its Treasure no longer present to sustain said the world. It requires far more assumptions for an already created dimension's existence to be tethered to a randomly implemented Palace, than going with all the scans backing up the term Palace is being used to refer to not just the building, but the entire parallel world itself.

Well, all they're stating is that treasure buds "blossom into a Palace", which can describe the process/state of being that I explained above. Plus, was the team even aware of what Yaldaboath was doing at that point?

Kinda already answered the first point, but what does the PTs knowing of Yaldabaoth's actions have to do with this? As Matt said, they don't. However, Morgana does know how Palaces work and the process that is their creation. This will likely be my last post for tonight.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

When the main dungeon of a Palace dimension is erased, so is everything else. Not only does Morgana say this, but the Metaverse Navigator states this pretty much every time: "The destination has been deleted" and the Thieves can no longer go back to the dimension because it simply does not exist anymore with its Treasure no longer present to sustain said the world.

The palace/distorted area may have been erased directly, however this doesn't mean absolutely everything in the dimension was erased too.

If we're to believe Yaldabaoth separated out these palaces from the Metaverse himself, once they cease to be "problematic" they could just be re-absorbed into the collective unconsciousness. Which would explain why we never see destructive waves hit significantly outside of distorted areas and why the palace location stops showing up on the meta-nav; since the "dimension" would just return to being part of Mementos and not a separate entity.

Kinda already answered the first point, but what does the PTs knowing of Yaldabaoth's actions have to do with this? As Matt said, they don't. However, Morgana does know how Palaces work and the process that is their creation. This will likely be my last post for tonight.

If they didn't know that Yaldaboath was sectioning off Palaces from the Metaverse, wouldn't they just assume that the treasure/palace ruler's cognition is the only thing responsible for them, when we know for a fact that Yaldabaoth plays a significant role in their creation/segregation?

 

[Stupits]

Oh Jesus, I just noticed this is part 1 of the revision, and we are still in the first argument. Have something like this ever happened in Vsbattle?.

yeah we haven’t even done anything about royal yet.

 

[Stupits]

>The palace/distorted area may have been erased directly, however this doesn't mean absolutely everything in the dimension was erased too.

Are you suggesting they’re 3A?

 

[Lucas_Carvalho_Santiago]

yeah we haven’t even done anything about royal yet.

I think royal stuff will be a little more straightforward tho

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Are you suggesting they’re 3A?

I'm actually suggesting that, with the information that's been presented in this CRT, it makes more sense that Palace Rulers only scale to the distorted parts of the dimension their palace exists in - and that the non-distorted areas are just sections of the Metaverse Yaldabaoth "cut off" from the rest of it, which return to it when they cease to be problematic. This explanation solves the issue of destruction waves not being shown to touch areas that aren't in the distortion AoE, and the issue of palaces not showing up on the meta-nav after treasures are removed.

 

[Stupits]

I think royal stuff will be a little more straightforward tho

I hope so

 

[Stupits]

I'm actually suggesting that, with the information that's been presented in this CRT, it makes more sense that Palace Rulers only scale to the distorted parts of the dimension their palace exists in - and that the non-distorted areas are just sections of the Metaverse Yaldabaoth "cut off" from the rest of it, which return to it when they cease to be problematic. This explanation solves the issue of destruction waves not being shown to touch areas that aren't in the distortion AoE, and the issue of palaces not showing up on the meta-nav after treasures are removed.

i'll let sol or milly answer that

 

[Lucas_Carvalho_Santiago]

I'm actually suggesting that, with the information that's been presented in this CRT, it makes more sense that Palace Rulers only scale to the distorted parts of the dimension their palace exists in - and that the non-distorted areas are just sections of the Metaverse Yaldabaoth "cut off" from the rest of it, which return to it when they cease to be problematic. This explanation solves the issue of destruction waves not being shown to touch areas that aren't in the distortion AoE, and the issue of palaces not showing up on the meta-nav after treasures are removed.

I'm not sure if this was already discussed but: at 36:53 Morgana responds to Ann and Ryuji's comments about Futaba's palace (literally a desert) and Kaneshiro's Palace (Entire Shibuya), saying: "That's still part of the palace though, the city may have not be distorted, but it was cognition.".
In other words, if I'm not mistaken (I can very well be) this would mean the palace encompasses even areas without distortion. I will come back to this tomorrow, as it is very late in my country. Hope this was useful in some way and please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Stupits]

I'm not sure if this was already discussed but: at 36:53 Morgana responds to Ann and Ryuji's comments about Futaba's palace (literally a desert) and Kaneshiro's Palace (Entire Shibuya), saying: "That's still part of the palace though, the city may have not be distorted, but it was cognition.".
In other words, if I'm not mistaken (I can very well be) this would mean the palace encompasses even areas without distortion. I will come back to this tomorrow, as it is very late in my country. Hope this was useful in some way and please correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean your not wrong but this has already been stated

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

In other words, if I'm not mistaken (I can very well be) this would mean the palace encompasses even areas without distortion.

However, we only see distorted areas directly affected by the removal of the Palace Rulers' treasure in the form of a destructive wave. I'm not saying that those non-distorted parts of the Palace aren't cognition, but I'm saying that they aren't directly under the influence of the Ruler and don't necessarily have to have been created by the Ruler, too (since Yaldabaoth just sections off the dimension from Mementos).

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not sure I agree Dargoo on this matter.

There are repeated statements that the Palace Rulers created the palace, that the palace is larger than the area affected by their cognition, and that the entire palace disappears when the treasure is removed. Not sure if this quote has been posted, but just in case it hasn't, I'll show it here:

This does outright state that the entire palace disappeared, and this scene is directly after they took away the treasure and left the palace. So we can't simply say "nothing disappeared except the distorted area", because that's outright not the entire palace.

I'm also not sure I understand the argument that Yaldabaoth created the non-distorted parts of the palace. Almost every source mentioned in the game regarding palace creation states that the palace is created from the palace ruler's cognition, and we know from the entire sequence explaining how Joker used Sae's palace to escape death + several other quotes that have already been shown that everything beyond the distorted area is still contained within the palace ruler's cognition. As far as I'm aware, not a single statement or quote in the game demonstrates that Yaldabaoth created the palaces beyond the distorted areas, barring some major extrapolation with very little basis from the quote about how the palace ruler's are segregated. As such, saying that the palace rulers created their palaces as a whole has far more basis and would be significantly more reliable.

 

[Stupits]

Well In a way You could say the Distorted areas are the brain of the Palace. Without it the whole thing doesn’t function and therefore collapses. That’s just my way of interpreting it though

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

There are repeated statements that the Palace Rulers created the palace, that the palace is larger than the area affected by their cognition, and that the entire palace disappears when the treasure is removed.

Disappears, notably, not destroyed. If the dimension the palace is located in was just returned to the collective unconsciousness, it'd also stop having a distinct, separate location apart from Mementos, and wouldn't appear on the Meta-Nav. For all the Phantom Theives are concerned, it "disappears". We only see the part within / altered by their cognition get affected by destruction waves.

And how many of these statements take into account Yaldabaoth's role in the formation of palaces? None of the crew even knew about this fact before Shido's palace. And yes, Rulers are responsible for the formation of palaces in a sense, however it's Yaldabaoth that sections off space from Mementos for them - not the Ruler. Why can't the surrounding, unaffected areas not just be some section of the Metaverse Yaldabaoth sectioned off with the distortion?

I'm also not sure I understand the argument that Yaldabaoth created the non-distorted parts of the palace.

Not actually arguing this - I'm saying that Yaldabaoth just sections off already-existing parts of the Metaverse for them to occupy, which is what we're explicitly told. To put it into simpler terms, Yaldabaoth cuts off a pieces of canvas for the Palace Rulers to paint - they don't paint over the entire canvas but a tiny section of it. The paint is wiped clean when the palace collapses, and the canvas is returned back to where it came from - the Metaverse.

 

[Stupits]

Even if the Palace wasn’t destroyed it doesn’t change the fact that the Palace ruler is what makes the Place function in the first place. But I take it that you think Palaces are higher than Solar system level so thats progress at least

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, I think the space palaces occupy is that large, but I don't think this is provably scalable to the Palace Rulers in lieu of information about Yaldy's role in palace formation. The distortion is the only thing we see affected by them, in terms of both creation and destruction.

 

[Stupits]

The Palaces are sustained by the Ruler's cognition. As stated by Morgana, even the areas in the Palace that are not distorted are still made of cognition, and thus, were also formed by said Ruler.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Disappears, notably, not destroyed. If the dimension the palace is located in was just returned to the collective unconsciousness, it'd also stop having a distinct, separate location apart from Mementos, and wouldn't appear on the Meta-Nav. For all the Phantom Theives are concerned, it "disappears". We only see the part within / altered by their cognition get affected by destruction waves.

At this point this is just nonsensical nitpicking. You clearly see the palace crumbling as the PTs desperately try to escape on multiple occasions, from Kamoshida to Shido’s. They can’t go back. The literal definition of disappear is to vanish, or die out, with the latter term being accurate as shown by scenery & Morgana’s statement.

And how many of these statements take into account Yaldabaoth's role in the formation of palaces? None of the crew even knew about this fact before Shido's palace. And yes, Rulers are responsible for the formation of palaces in a sense, however it's Yaldabaoth that sections off space from Mementos for them - not the Ruler. Why can't the surrounding, unaffected areas not just be some section of the Metaverse Yaldabaoth sectioned off with the distortion?

Firstly, what evidence even exists to suggest this? There’s been countless evidence proving that they create everything in the Palace, with the area of distortion being most distorted. Why would the scenery already exist without the actual source of distortion making it? It’s sectioned off due to its size, not because it’s part of the Metaverse. They literally say the Metaverse is everyone’s palace, who’s desires haven’t blossomed into a Palace.

I’m sorry if I sound aggressive but nothing has happened and we’ve been arguing in circles or arguing of things that literally have no evidence to support that notion for days.

 

[Solacis]

As things currently stand, there's zero credence to the idea that Yaldabaoth has any role in the formation of the Palaces, save for - as DarkGrath rightfully pointed out - major extrapolation from the one mention of Palace Rulers being segregated from Mementos. Arguing the difference between "disappear" and "destroy" is equally pointless, considering the overwhelming evidence pointing to the entirety of the Palace being destroyed, in tandem with the established fact that "Palace" refers to the entire parallel world, and not just the building and its immediate area.

I sincerely don't believe that there's anything left to consider regarding Low 2-C Palaces, based on what's been said on the thread since my last response. Is it possible for us to move onto the next topic of discussion: that is, 2-B Umr-at-Tawil? I still have a couple of hours before I have to leave for camp, so a quick response would be appreciated if you all would like my thoughts on the topic before next week.

 

[DarkGrath]

Disappears, notably, not destroyed. If the dimension the palace is located in was just returned to the collective unconsciousness, it'd also stop having a distinct, separate location apart from Mementos, and wouldn't appear on the Meta-Nav. For all the Phantom Theives are concerned, it "disappears". We only see the part within / altered by their cognition get affected by destruction waves.

As Milly put it, this is rather excessive nitpicking. The two terms are nigh-synonymous with each other, and from the context of the scene, it is extremely obvious that the quote refers to the fact that the palace was breaking down around them before they escaped.

Also

I'm saying that Yaldabaoth just sections off already-existing parts of the Metaverse for them to occupy, which is what we're explicitly told.

What exactly are you referring to? Of the scans listed so far, the only quote I can find that says anything even remotely close is the one from Shadow Shido:

"Of course, I'm talking about our past selves. Such people are segregated from this peaceful world and locked away in their own palace."

This quote only states that the palace rulers are separated from Mementos, and that's how they end up in the palaces. The quote does not state anything along the lines of Yaldabaoth specifically sectioning off parts of the Metaverse created he created in advance, and technically doesn't even mention Yaldabaoth at all (though it's almost certainly talking about Yaldabaoth contextually). At best, this information could maybe be implied if we extrapolated far beyond the text, which we should avoid unless necessary.

If you were referring to a different quote or scan that I missed, my apologies. But as far as I can tell, nothing of the sort is ever explicitly stated in the entire game, which makes it very questionable compared to the constant statements explicitly making stating that the palace rulers created the entirety of their palaces.



For just one more thing, the palaces being created by Yaldabaoth explicitly contradicts what we are told about the targets in Mementos. I'm unsure if scans for this have already been posted, so I'll post them here:







Ryuji: "Hm? What's that shinin' thing?"

Morgana: "It's the bud of a treasure. Had we left it be, it may very well have blossomed into a Palace"

This exchange takes place immediately after defeating the first Mementos target, when the treasure bud is left behind. It's stated in other scenes that it is the Palace Rulers who deny the Prison of Regression, attempt to escape Mementos, and succeed who have their treasure buds turned into a Palace. If parts of the Palace had already been created in advance, then this entire exchange and the later references to this exchange would not be possible.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, it’s 3:00 AM on my end, and I think I now have er, three different arguments to respond to now.

I *would* like to note that I haven’t necessarily dropped the argument that world =/= universe. I’ve consulted a number of bilingual members who have all agreed that the idea that the term must either refer to a planet or the whole observable universe (or society) is not reflected in modern definitions and uses of the word, and that the usage in Japanese is largely the same in English.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I’m fine with continuing to the 2-B discussion, if we’re sincerely not going anywhere with this discussion, though.

I can try and get more users to help evaluate this thread and the arguments presented thus far on the Low 2-C debate.

 

[DarkGrath]

If it's 3:00am, then damn. You'd aught to get some rest, rather than worrying about responding to CRTs quickly. Hope you have a good night?

 

[Solacis]

To be completely honest, I do want to settle the Low 2-C debate, but at the same time, in my opinion, the biggest hangup essentially boils down to a difference in personal opinion, as opposed to any truly objective faults in logic. We are arguing in circles at this point, and save for completely changing the mind of the other party, we're not going to go anywhere. It's like DarkGrath said, both lines of logic pertaining either side of the argument are equally valid.

At this point, I find it's best to just go for what is most widely agreed upon, which I believe is that Palaces are Low 2-C, and move onto the next topic.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was having some trouble sleeping regardless, so it’s not a big deal. Noticed that a lot was posted and that Sol had a limited time frame to comment on 2-B, so I’d rather express I’m fine to jump to that for the time being so this isn’t needlessly delayed.

I can get back to where some of my points left off at a later time, and try to get in a wider range of opinions on the given debate.

 

[Solacis]

Then, assuming we're moving on, I'll address Dargoo's points regarding Umr-at-Tawil being 2-B.

Could you also provide evidence that there's a single, continuous Collective Unconsciousness that's the same for all of the later-mentioned universes? I actually wouldn't disagree with this being 2-B if that was the case, and I'll assume in good faith that it is the case and I'm just not remembering something important. However this kind of stops working if there is a different Collective Unconsciousness for each timeline which I can get into after this is rectified.

Alternate timelines are connected through the Collective Unconscious, as stated by Tatsuya in reference to the Other Side (which was the original timeline that was destroyed by Nyarly). Enlil also withdrew Kotone Shiomi from an alternate timeline through the Sea of Souls. The other iterations of "Yu Narukami" mentioned by Marie are also from alternate timelines. The CU is also stated by extra materials to connect human minds across all of time and space.

Yaldy's justifications depend on if each timeline is connected to the same Metaverse, which needs to be proven still and also kind of runs into issues with conflicting mega-events that affect the entire Metaverse in each game.

This is honestly the biggest potential issue, but the fact that Azathoth outright states that Mementos is in some way equivalent with the CU, and that Yaldabaoth also states himself as its administrator on top of his display of fusing it with the real world, makes his justifications more or less iron-clad.

 

[GokuBold]

Seen how both sides don't want to budge on their opinions for the low-2C argument, I think it is necessary to bring more people in to act as witnesses and agree which side is more logical.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Seen how both sides don't want to budge on their opinions for the low-2C argument, I think it is necessary to bring more people in to act as witnesses and agree which side is more logical.

Dargo already agreed to move on with the assumption that Palaces are Low 2-C. We're moving onto the 2-B arguments now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He agreed that he doesn't agree, actually.

I don't agree either. I think it would be best to get more neutral people's opinions.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

He agreed that he doesn't agree, actually.

I don't agree either. I think it would be best to get more neutral people's opinions.

I just said he agreed to move on for now. Not that he agreed with the actual claim.

 

[Stupits]

He agreed that he doesn't agree, actually.

I don't agree either. I think it would be best to get more neutral people's opinions.

Matt No We all want to Move on so pls just move on for now.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agreed to move to the next topic.

We can try and get more members to look through the various debate points and provide argument summaries (let’s have both Sol and I summarize our own and opposing arguments on each point), however let’s wait until we’ve discussed every topic for this.

We’re kind of getting to a point where members (including myself) need to start focusing on other threads, so the sooner I can get Sol to respond to my other points the sooner we can start wrapping up, getting more staff and regular user opinions, and deciding on what should be accepted, which can be considering to be the "last point".

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Alternate timelines are connected through the Collective Unconscious, as stated by Tatsuya in reference to the Other Side (which was the original timeline that was destroyed by Nyarly). Enlil also withdrew Kotone Shiomi from an alternate timeline through the Sea of Souls. The other iterations of "Yu Narukami" mentioned by Marie are also from alternate timelines. The CU is also stated by extra materials to connect human minds across all of time and space.

I feel like a lot of the connections being made to the Other Side and the Seal of Souls, and that to the Metaverse/Mementos are, well, to put it, extremely vague. Especially the one saying "this Ocean" refers to the Sea of Souls - that statement in of itself makes zero explicit connection outside of similar wording (Sea/Ocean) and the whole thought process comes off as more fan-theory than directly explained verse mechanics. I feel like the most concrete conclusion we can get from this is "The Seal of Souls might have some connection to the CU", but we don't know if it is the CU.

I'm also not sure how any of these statements demonstrate that the Metaverse/CU is the same throughout all Persona games - in fact, a few of them come off more as there being a multitude of metaverses, such as the Persona 4 example of there being other versions of Yu Narukami (all these Yus don't seem to be exploring the same Midnight Channel, and when one helps you out they seem to be doing it from their own, independent version of it). This would basically end my major hangup with the discontinuity of the CU between the various games outside of extremely rare and indirect connections like those laid out above.

The last statement isn't really reffering to alternate realities in any sense whatsoever, and I'd personally like to know why we're taking Mr. Edogawa's words straight-up regarding the Metaverse as a whole despite his own extremely limited interaction with the CU.

outright states that Mementos is in some way equivalent with the CU

This sort of falls under my issue above where the wording and connection is so loose with this statement I'm genuinely confused that you're telling me he "outright states" this when he explicitly doesn't, in that particular scan. I can make out the connection but it's in no way direct or outright.

I seriously don't agree with taking any vaguely ocean/sea-like name reference and saying it must mean they're talking about the Sea of Souls.

 

[Solacis]

I'm going to reply because I can't believe this is even an argument, but since I'm on my phone and can't link new scans, I'll have to come back to this at a later point.

I don't see what's so vague about it. The Sea of Souls is stated on several occasions to be the origin of Personas and Shadows, directly saying so themselves. Every Shadow in P5 repeats the same line when you recruit them to be Personas through negotiation, that they came from the Sea of Souls. As stated in the P3 Club Book, all Gods, Personas and Shadows originate from the Collective Unconscious.

There is only one "Metaverse", and it isn't synonymous with the Collective Unconscious. You're completely misunderstanding what they are. The Metaverse is a construction of Yaldabaoth. The CU is what birthed Yaldabaoth. The Metaverse is an offshoot, a set of worlds stemming off from the CU in the same way as Mikuratana-no-Kami's Midnight Stage, Izanami's TV World, and Tartarus and the Dark Hour. The CU is the source. The Metaverse was destroyed at the end of P5, yet obviously the CU is still there or else, as Virochana has stated, all of existence would have ceased to exist.

 

[Stupits]

So what topic do we deal with next? There are still around 2 here besides the Low 2C topic that has varying opinions.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The Sea of Souls is stated on several occasions to be the origin of Personas and Shadows, directly saying so themselves. Every Shadow in P5 repeats the same line when you recruit them to be Personas through negotiation, that they came from the Sea of Souls. As stated in the P3 Club Book, all Gods, Personas and Shadows originate from the Collective Unconscious.

That doesn't really conflict with what I said, though? I'm saying that we know enough about the Sea of Souls to connect it to or say it's a part of the Collective Unconsciousness, however I'm not sure if it would be accurate to say that the Sea of Souls is the CU itself in its entirety.

You're completely misunderstanding what they are. The Metaverse is a construction of Yaldabaoth. The CU is what birthed Yaldabaoth. The Metaverse is an offshoot, a set of worlds stemming off from the CU in the same way as Mikuratana-no-Kami's Midnight Stage, Izanami's TV World, and Tartarus and the Dark Hour.

I mean, I feel like you can understand my confusion there when one of your main arguments is that Mementos, the core of Yaldabaoth's metaverse, is "equivalent" to the full CU via Azatoth calling it something sea/ocean related. I feel like you're contradicting yourself here.

And if it wasn't obvious I was using "Metaverse" as a moniker for stuff like the TV World, Tartarus, Dark Hour, etc. It would be troublesome for me to name all of those individually every time I wanted to make a point with them.

So what topic do we deal with next? There are still around 2 here besides the Low 2C topic that has varying opinions.

We could probably tackle the entire lightning round in one big debate, I think.