Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[GokuBold]

And if it wasn't obvious I was using "Metaverse" as a moniker for stuff like the TV World, Tartarus, Dark Hour, etc. It would be troublesome for me to name all of those individually every time I wanted to make a point with them.

This will probably cause confusion to others unless the stuff is referenced.

 

[Stupits]

Lez go then, I wanna move on to the Royal stuff already

 

[Stupits]

This will probably cause confusion to others unless the stuff is referenced.

yeah when metaverse is brought up I immediately think Persona 5

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

This will probably cause confusion to others unless the stuff is referenced.

That's fair, I'll stop that in future discussion then.

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, the issue is that "Metaverse" is a P5-only term, in reference to the collection of Palaces. I think the closest term to what you're looking for is "cognitive world".

I'll make a response to your actual reply later on, if I can. Just wanted to clear this up.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

What are the main points of contention here that are left to discuss?

 

[GokuBold]

All of them, but for now, the Low-2C point has been moved for later, the current point is Umr-at-Tawil being 2-B.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

What are the main points of contention here that are left to discuss?

- If the Sea of Souls is connected to the Collective Unconscious
- The whole thing with Azathoth's statement about how the Sea of Hearts/Souls and if Mementos is the equivalent to the CU by virtue of Morgana's various statements.
- Dargoo's entire lightning round, which I think is on page 3 of this thread.
- And Low 2-C Palaces, but as GokuBold said, we've moved past that for now and will return to it later.

From what I understand, at least.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

- The whole thing with Azathoth's statement about how the Sea of Hearts/Souls and if Mementos is the equivalent to the CU by virtue of Morgana's various statements.
- Dargoo's entire lightning round, which I think is on page 3 of this thread.
- And Low 2-C Palaces, but as GokuBold said, we've moved past that for now and will return to it later.

From what I understand, at least.

-The sea of souls is the collective unconscious. It's just less of a formal name and more of a flowery way of describing it. This was confirmed back with Maki and re-affirmed multiple times. Persona/shadows/demons coming from the CU/sea of souls, the CU outright being referred to as something people would describe as a "sea", and Tatsuya telling his friend the will be reunited by "this ocean" while standing in the CU, the operative word being "this" given the whole context is them being in kadath to fix the plot. The collective unconscious is an objective-descriptive name, while the sea of souls is more of a subjective-descriptive name. Both describe it but in different ways to suit different things.
- On the mementos point I'd have to say Morgana was comparing it functionally to a collective unconscious. Not directly saying it was "the Collective Unconscious". I think it was the collective unconscious of all the people living on that Earth at the time. Not the big cheese CU.
- Oh well I guess just give me a ring when we get back to the low 2-C stuff.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

I'd also just read over Darg and Sol's recent stuff whenever you got the time, just in case I missed/misinterpreted anything.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The collective unconscious is an objective-descriptive name, while the sea of souls is more of a subjective-descriptive name. Both describe it but in different ways to suit different things.

At the same time, much of the descriptions of the Sea of Souls can be equally translated as it being a location within the CU, as opposed to being a less direct name for it. I also feel like there should be more context provided for this "big cheese CU vs. little cheese CU"; rather than there just being a multitudes of CUs that are keyed to different realities or sets of realities.

I think it was the collective unconscious of all the people living on that Earth at the time. Not the big cheese CU.

That said, assuming the above is correct, I'm pretty sure this shoots the main justification for Yaldy being 2-B right in the kneecap, since the OP was trying to justify Mementos being literally just the entire CU. Azatoth seemed to be only making a very nondescriptive comparison at best.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

At the same time, much of the descriptions of the Sea of Souls can be equally translated as it being a location within the CU, as opposed to being a less direct name for it. I also feel like there should be more context provided for this "big cheese CU vs. little cheese CU"; rather than there just being a multitudes of CUs that are keyed to different realities or sets of realities.


That said, assuming the above is correct, I'm pretty sure this shoots the main justification for Yaldy being 2-B right in the kneecap, since the OP was trying to justify Mementos being literally just the entire CU. Azatoth seemed to be only making a very nondescriptive comparison at best.

- Not really. It is the sea of souls and vice versa. The terms are used interchangeably to describe the exact same location. Maki tells us that human minds originate from the sea of souls, Philemon tells us a human soul is what gives it the capacity to change reality, and that same power is what created the universe. Elizabeth directly refers to this comparison while quite literally defining the CU and then saying "Some call it a sea". Tatsuya is literally standing in the uppermost domain of the CU and refers to it as an ocean. The persona and demons come from archetypes in the CU. Persona later tells us that they originate from the sea of souls in P5. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence suggesting they are indeed the same thing when looking at it through the series. From my understanding, you are most familiar with Part 5.

I did explain this. You might have missed my earlier post explaining the persona universe. The CU is the big cheese which all of reality stems from (via philemon, Morgana, and Elizabeth quotes back up). In the CU time and space are dubbed as meaningless as cognition rules the day and creating such things isn't hard. It has shown multiple times to connect not only separate timelines but capable of allowing people to exist from different points in a timeline at once. In PQ2 Enlil even shows that she can control the akashic record including memories from Minako's and Minato's timelines.

- Not quite. Yaldy would be 2-B for creating the parallel for Palaces to exist which would number well into the thousands logistically, and his major justification comes from his actions against the CU and physical reality. Umr is the guardian of the boundary and fought Tatsuya and Co for simply entering Kadath Mandala. Meaning he logically would have fought Yaldabaoth trying to merge the boundary or just ****** off knowing he was outmatched. Either way, Yaldy displayed superiority. He also is the only antagonist to enter, let alone take over the Velvet Room which has its own implications.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

My responses are getting a bit longer, so I'll collapse them.

Spoiler

It is the sea of souls and vice versa. The terms are used interchangeably to describe the exact same location. Maki tells us that human minds originate from the sea of souls, Philemon tells us a human soul is what gives it the capacity to change reality, and that same power is what created the universe.

I don't recall an instance provided so far where they actually use the terms "Collective Unconsciousness" and "Sea of Souls" interchanably in a direct sense. The best evidence I've seen are quotes saying "some call it a sea" and calling it an "ocean", but I don't think this is as much a direct statement as it is, at best, a small reference.

The persona and demons come from archetypes in the CU. Persona later tells us that they originate from the sea of souls in P5. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence suggesting they are indeed the same thing when looking at it through the series. From my understanding, you are most familiar with Part 5.

I'm aware of this, yes. However these same exact statements would apply just fine if the Sea was something inside the CU, no? If you were in the Sea you'd be in the CU, too, so to say they "originate from the CU" would still be accurate. Kind of like saying "I was born in America" and "I was born in a hospital" not actually meaning that they were born in a hospital called America.

Yaldy would be 2-B for creating the parallel for Palaces to exist which would number well into the thousands logistically, and his major justification comes from his actions against the CU and physical reality.

That depends entirely on if Low 2-C palaces are accepted.

That physical reality being a singular universe. I don't recall Yaldy ever being implied or stated at affecting multiple physical universes with what he did.

Umr is the guardian of the boundary and fought Tatsuya and Co for simply entering Kadath Mandala. Meaning he logically would have fought Yaldabaoth trying to merge the boundary or just ****** off knowing he was outmatched.

This seems to just be an assumption, not something we can prove. And I have other issues with Umr being 2-B - including the how the wiki has treated on-death effects vs. the actual applicable/scalable tier of the character.

He also is the only antagonist to enter, let alone take over the Velvet Room which has its own implications.

I'd like to personally see how taking over the Velvet Room would be considered a multiversal feat, if that's something you can provide.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't recall an instance provided so far where they actually use the terms "Collective Unconsciousness" and "Sea of Souls" interchanably in a direct sense. The best evidence I've seen are quotes saying "some call it a sea" and calling it an "ocean", but I don't think this is as much a direct statement as it is, at best, a small reference.

Elizabeth is literally standing in the Collective Unconscious and defining it in the sentence before saying the whole "some call it a sea". That is a direct reference to a previously established fact that both entities are the same thing. Like I said Collective Unconscious is just the collective of unconscious/psychic phenomena. The sea of souls being the "collection of souls". It's just a more figurative name for the same thing. They are literally the same thing in all ways.

I'm aware of this, yes. However these same exact statements would apply just fine if the Sea was something inside the CU, no? If you were in the Sea you'd be in the CU, too, so to say they "originate from the CU" would still be accurate. Kind of like saying "I was born in America" and "I was born in a hospital" not actually meaning that they were born in a hospital called America.

- Not quite. For one when Tatsuya makes his ocean analogy (a term that could easily actually be sea given Persona's translations not being 100% perfect), he is not in a starscape. He is sitting in Kadath Mandala which is its own special area of the CU that sits above reality and is the place where archetypes are born. So he was referring to the collective unconscious as the "ocean" which is just a figurative description of the sum total of psychic/spiritual energy in the CU.
- Once again, the Elizabeth example explicitly has her define the collective unconscious (A domain long before man housing the memories of all life) before telling us that the entity (the previously described CU) is also called a Sea. It doesn't get much clearer than that Imo.

That depends entirely on if Low 2-C palaces are accepted.

-Correct.

That physical reality being a singular universe. I don't recall Yaldy ever being implied or stated at affecting multiple physical universes with what he did.

Yes but that is beside the point. Umr is literally the personification and embodiment of the boundary between the CU and reality. He is literally space as seen when his presence distorts the space around him. Being the boundary of the CU complex would make him 2-B and Yaldy would scale above him for fusing the boundaries. Once again, Umr fought Tatsuya and Co despite having Randolph Carter with them, and they were legit just entering Kadath. Yaldabaoth fused reality and the metaverse and continued to perform a hostile takeover of the Velvet Room.

This seems to just be an assumption, not something we can prove. And I have other issues with Umr being 2-B - including the how the wiki has treated on-death effects vs. the actual applicable/scalable tier of the character.

What part is being assumed? The beings in Kadath Mandala are the actual archetypes that constitute their manifestations existence. He is literally stated to be the personification of the boundary between CU and reality. He noticeably distorts space when he appears to fight. He is said to be undefeatable and that accomplishing such would lead to a break down of the barrier between the individual and collective cognition.

I'd like to personally see how taking over the Velvet Room would be considered a multiversal feat, if that's something you can provide.

I never claimed it was tbf. The point was how far Yaldy reached into the CU and that he bypassed any resistance from Philemon and essentially bodied Igor + his attendants.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dr._whiteee

Spoiler

Elizabeth is literally standing in the Collective Unconscious and defining it in the sentence before saying the whole "some call it a sea". That is a direct reference to a previously established fact that both entities are the same thing.

I don't see that as a direct reference. If he was saying "some call it The Sea of Souls" I'd hand this to you about it being obvious, but to take "some call it a sea" and say "it must be this thing previously mentioned a while back" comes off more as fan-theory than legitimate, direct exposition.

For one when Tatsuya makes his ocean analogy (a term that could easily actually be sea given Persona's translations not being 100% perfect), he is not in a starscape. He is sitting in Kadath Mandala which is its own special area of the CU that sits above reality and is the place where archetypes are born. So he was referring to the collective unconscious as the "ocean" which is just a figurative description of the sum total of psychic/spiritual energy in the CU.

I mean, I'd rather confirm it's a translation flub with a bilingual member rather than just assume it's one because Atlas has bad localization. I seriously don't see how referring to something, figuratively, as an ocean, has anything to do with the sea of souls. I feel like some key jumps in logic need to be made for this to be laid out as clearly as it's being claimed here, or there's just some piece of evidence I'm missing that makes it more obvious than what's already been provided.

Like when someone tells me "this and this word are used interchangeably" and the direct examples is "someone uses a word vaguely associated with this to refer to this" it should be understandable that it feels like there's something being unsaid or not provided.

Umr is literally the personification and embodiment of the boundary between the CU and reality. He is literally space as seen when his presence distorts the space around him. Being the boundary of the CU complex would make him 2-B and Yaldy would scale above him for fusing the boundaries. Once again, Umr fought Tatsuya and Co despite having Randolph Carter with them, and they were legit just entering Kadath. Yaldabaoth fused reality and the metaverse and continued to perform a hostile takeover of the Velvet Room.

I don't see how him being the embodiment of boundaries makes him capable of creating or destroying a 2-B structure without killing himself, which is what we quantify as 2-B, anymore than someone "embodying death" on a multiversal level without either scaling to or having feats of destroying/creating a multiverse. Distorting space doesn't mean you're actually made of space-time (and I don't even know why or how this is relevant to your point), it just means you can manipulate space. I'm talking about what parts of his tier are actually scalable, and on-death effects aren't scalable unless he was actually killed and some force prevented the incoming multiversal collapse.

Yaldabaoth fused his own metaverse, mementos, with a singular universe. I have no clue how you can claim mementos/the Persona 5 Metaverse as being something separate from the "greater collective unconsciousness" (still haven't gotten a citation for where this term even comes from) and also claim fusing the Metaverse with a single universe is a 2-B feat.

You admit below that the Velvet Room takeover isn't a 2-B feat, not really sure why it's mentioned here.

I never claimed it was tbf. The point was how far Yaldy reached into the CU and that he bypassed any resistance from Philemon and essentially bodied Igor + his attendants.

I mean, if this is the case, can you just uh, not list it in your arguments for Yaldy being 2-B? I feel like there's a lot of fluff in these arguments that are just vestigial to your main points. If something isn't relevant to the tier I'd rather not discuss it if it means prolonging the thread even more than it has been prolonged already.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also as a head's up I'll be busy for the rest of the night between other CRTs and just some general work I need to do. Will respond to the counterarguments posted here tomorrow.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't see that as a direct reference. If he was saying "some call it The Sea of Souls" I'd hand this to you about it being obvious, but to take "some call it a sea" and say "it must be this thing previously mentioned a while back" comes off more as fan-theory than legitimate, direct exposition.

Your reaching here. It was not mentioned "a while back" it was literally what the "sea" Elizabeth refers to in direct reference to. She literally defines the CU, and then says some call it a sea. Nothing about it is fan theory. The CU and Sea of souls have long been synonymous, this point is kind of persona 101 which is why a lot of people are sort of treating it as such.

I mean, I'd rather confirm it's a translation flub with a bilingual member rather than just assume it's one because Atlas has bad localization. I seriously don't see how referring to something, figuratively, as an ocean, has anything to do with the sea of souls. I feel like some key jumps in logic need to be made for this to be laid out as clearly as it's being claimed here, or there's just some piece of evidence I'm missing that makes it more obvious than what's already been provided.

I don't see how you are being so obtuse about this point, and I mean that with no insult. The sea of souls and CU have been interchangeable as demonstrated by the above scans you haven't directly responded to. Both birth persona's, both birth shadows/demons, both are shown as starscapes, both serve the same function, and there is multiple cross over references in between as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

Like when someone tells me "this and this word are used interchangeably" and the direct examples is "someone uses a word vaguely associated with this to refer to this" it should be understandable that it feels like there's something being unsaid or not provided.

Except you are twisting the argument and not being intellectually honest here. They are used interchangeably if they refer to the same entity in function. This has been proven several times in this thread. There is nothing vague about them both being referred to in the same capacity. To further the connection there are the two examples of the CU and Sea of souls being linked. Liz defining the CU and claiming some call it a "sea" and Tatsuya's use of the word ocean. It's not a vague association when not only are things interchangeable but also linked several times throughout the story. Throughout all of the games it has been beaten into the skulls of players that the Sea of Souls is the CU.

Citations have been linked multiple times. The earliest linked comes from P2 where Philemon states that collective unconscious makes it so that reality can be reset. The other scans being the translations explaining the persona and demons stemming from the collective unconscious (the domain housing the specific location Kadath Mandala). Which is the exact same thing stated for the sea of souls for shadows and persona.

,


I don't see how him being the embodiment of boundaries makes him capable of creating or destroying a 2-B structure without killing himself, which is what we quantify as 2-B, anymore than someone "embodying death" on a multiversal level without either scaling to or having feats of destroying/creating a multiverse. Distorting space doesn't mean you're actually made of space-time (and I don't even know why or how this is relevant to your point), it just means you can manipulate space. I'm talking about what parts of his tier are actually scalable, and on-death effects aren't scalable unless he was actually killed and some force prevented the incoming multiversal collapse.

Because he is the embodiment and personification of the boundary between the CU and reality. He sustains them as separate entities and is responsible for the boundary in between individual worlds as such as well. Which Is why killing him would wreck such a structure and cause a collapse. The CU is a 2-b structure.

Except you are ignoring the context of him being literal space/boundary, and such a feat in this context is to highlight Zula's claim about his existence.

Yaldabaoth fused his own metaverse, mementos, with a singular universe. I have no clue how you can claim mementos/the Persona 5 Metaverse as being something separate from the "greater collective unconsciousness" (still haven't gotten a citation for where this term even comes from) and also claim fusing the Metaverse with a single universe is a 2-B feat.

Because from what I gather you aren't as knowledgeable across all games. The greater CU is literally all of existence. The physical universes were birthed from it, and it is the skeleton for every single mental world found in the persona verse. Mementos is the collective unconscious of the world at the time of Persona 5. Metaverse is the collection of worlds that Yaldabaoth created. They have nothing to do with the umpteen other cognitive worlds, nor the millions of other physical universes. All of that comprised is the CU. This is why Morgana stated and displayed, not only was the metaverse ruled by cognition, but also the physical reality, and Philemon told us that cognition created the physical universe.

You admit below that the Velvet Room takeover isn't a 2-B feat, not really sure why it's mentioned here.

Please read my argument. It isn't a 2-B feat in magnitude, but it is another case of Yaldabaoth going past the boundary of the collective unconscious and doing so in the face of Philemon who is also > Umr. So yes scaling wise it is more evidence that Yaldy would scale to Umr.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ah, one more before I head out for the night.

@Dr._whiteee

Spoiler

She literally defines the CU, and then says some call it a sea. Nothing about it is fan theory.

None of that is a fan-theory, yes. However taking that and saying it means they're the same thing definitely does come off like that. There seems to be very little connection other than what is conjectured around the evidence and not the evidence provided in of itself.

Your reaching here. It was not mentioned "a while back" it was literally what the "sea" Elizabeth refers to in direct reference to.

Is this you assuming that "sea" that she's reffering to is the Sea of Souls or does she actually drop the full name and say it's the CU somewhere I haven't been shown yet?

I don't see how you are being so obtuse about this point, and I mean that with no insult. The sea of souls and CU have been interchangeable as demonstrated by the above scans you haven't directly responded to. Both birth persona's, both birth shadows/demons, both are shown as starscapes, both serve the same function, and there is multiple cross over references in between as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

I don't take obtuse as an insult anymore than I take someone telling me that I'm no making sense as one. Kind of the point of debating - we're trying to explain our POVs to eachother and come to a mutual understanding.

Again though, there's a lot of padding to the argument here that skids around the main point. I don't think you've responded directly to the argument I made that the SoS being in the CU would basically explain all persona/demon statements, firstly. Secondly, if "having a starscape" meaning anything here I'm sure the physical world in Persona 5 counts as the full CU too, them having or not having a starscape doesn't mean anything in this context. And I've looked through all the crossover reverences here and all of them don't directly clarify the claims being brought up here if we remove the assumptions being made by Sol and you.

Except you are twisting the argument and not being intellectually honest here. They are used interchangeably if they refer to the same entity in function. This has been proven several times in this thread. There is nothing vague about them both being referred to in the same capacity. To further the connection there are the two examples of the CU and Sea of souls being linked. Liz defining the CU and claiming some call it a "sea" and Tatsuya's use of the word ocean. It's not a vague association when not only are things interchangeable but also linked several times throughout the story. Throughout all of the games it has been beaten into the skulls of players that the Sea of Souls is the CU.

I don't see where it's been proven multiple times on the thread. There was basically just Low 2-C discussion up until now, then we started on the 2-B discussion and I was provided, by you, a whopping 3 scans regarding this "interchanable use" with a bunch of complimentary claims that were tacked on without also being proven. I'm not sure how I can be intellectually dishonest when the definitive proof I'm given is so small in volume relative to the claims that are being made.

While you're certainly hammering in the point into my skull, the scans provided by you aren't really hitting anything, and I seriously think more evidence either surrounding the evidence given or just something not discussed is paramount.

And while I don't care about being told that I'm simply not understanding something, I don't really appreciate accusations of being intellectually dishonest. I don't know your intentions any better than you know mine and vice versa. Unless you're using a different definition of intellectual dishonesty, which would be more understandable.

Because he is the embodiment and personification of the boundary between the CU and reality. He sustains them as separate entities and is responsible for the boundary in between individual worlds as such as well. Which Is why killing him would wreck such a structure and cause a collapse. The CU is a 2-b structure.

Except you are ignoring the context of him being literal space/boundary, and such a feat in this context is to highlight Zula's claim about his existence.

Sustaining a structure by continuing to exist does not necessarily mean that your combat-applicable AP/Durability can destroy such a structure or create such a structure or destroy characters who can withstand attacks from characters who can destroy such structures. And he doesn't embody either the multiverse or the CU itself; it's just that killing him would set off a sort of chain reaction that would cause both to undo themselves based on how they'd interact if there was no barrier.

It highlights it by association of them both being space-related, sure, but it's not like that's something that needs to actually be done for the argument, and just kind of occupies empty logical space and arguing time from both of us.

Mementos is the collective unconscious of the world at the time of Persona 5. Metaverse is the collection of worlds that Yaldabaoth created. They have nothing to do with the umpteen other cognitive worlds, nor the millions of other physical universes. All of that comprised is the CU.

I'm not sure what point this is trying to make. This seems to give even more credence to the idea that what Yaldabaoth did wasn't 2-B, since neither the Metaverse in P5 nor the physical universe of P5 are (without Low 2-C palaces) 2-B structures. If we can't really discuss this point in particular without also solving the question of Low 2-C it might be better to drop it.

Please read my argument. It isn't a 2-B feat in magnitude, but it is another case of Yaldabaoth going past the boundary of the collective unconscious and doing so in the face of Philemon who is also > Umr. So yes scaling wise it is more evidence that Yaldy would scale to Umr.

Fair, I missed that in your last post. Apologies.

Yaldy directly clashing with Philemon or interacting with Philemon in a way that he'd scale is news to me, though. Where was this cited on the thread? Do we know specifics on what happened between them?

Noticeably the scaling between Phil and Umr was explained but not cited on the OP or here either. Could that be provided too?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No offense, but I really feel we aren’t even actually arguing what’s there, but meaningless nitpicking or extrapolation that literally doesn’t even exist.

Elizabeth saying Sea quite obvious means the CU, she’s a Velvet Room attendant, and by your words she has vast knowledge on the CU, what reason does she have to be vague??

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Just wanna say I'm still in agreement.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Of the OP, or Dragoo?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Op

 

[Stupits]

Can Sol do a quick explanation on The Galaxy range part just so we can get some easy things off the list.

it’s gonna be hard to do matchups for Ren if he gets upgraded to 2B lmao

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No, we’re already deep into 2-B’s discussion.

 

[Stupits]

No, we’re already deep into 2-B’s discussion.

fair enough

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No offense, but I really feel we aren’t even actually arguing what’s there, but meaningless nitpicking or extrapolation that literally doesn’t even exist.

Please stop dismissing every argument Dargoo makes as nitpicking. It's not the 1st nor the 2nd nor the 3rd time the support side does this in the thread. Address the arguments instead of dismissing their very validity.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Now, where did I say every argument? The validity of most arguments sorta falls flat when you’re only knowledgeable on one of multiple games that literally all tie into each other, and then expecting us to provide evidence from that don’t even exist because of extrapolation that is directly countered by said evidence that does exist.

Between the numerous examples I gave of world=reality=universe, which is exactly what was asked for, only to be responded with that it still needs to be referred to as a planet or universe, or straight up arguing the context of disappear vs destroy when the context of said scene and Morgana’s word shuts down that before it even starts, and now if Sea=CU, when Elizabeth, by word, has vast knowledge of the CU.

It is extremely irritating to have to disprove things that don’t exist & define things that are right in front of you, then act like we’re speaking caveman for us to continue it all over.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The validity of most arguments sorta falls flat when you’re only knowledgeable on one of multiple games that literally all tie into each other, and then expecting us to provide evidence from that don’t even exist because of extrapolation that is directly countered by said evidence that does exist.

I shouldn't even need to be knowledgeable on Persona 5 for you guys to explain the ratings to me. This is how the site works, you're writing profiles that can prove and explain ratings to browsing users or users who are debating you in a VS thread. If I need to actually play every single Persona game to understand what you're putting on the profiles, you're not actually explaining or proving your ratings to the site, you're explaining and proving the rating to the like, 5-6 people who wrote this CRT and already agree with you by defacto. I shouldn't have to explain how that's problematic. Clearly explaining these things is expected of every verse of this scope and I don't see why Persona is the exception here.

As for the rest of this - I legitimately have no clue what you're even trying to say, other than the point that you don't have any of the evidence I was asking for? If it's just boiling down to this, I don't even know why I'm still entertaining these points and not just giving them a flat "no".

Between the numerous examples I gave of world=reality=universe, which is exactly what was asked for, only to be responded with that it still needs to be referred to as a planet or universe, or straight up arguing the context of disappear vs destroy when the context of said scene and Morgana’s word shuts down that before it even starts, and now if Sea=CU, when Elizabeth, by word, has vast knowledge of the CU.

Yeah alright, I'm not taking that to the face and staying jovial on the thread. I feel like Sol/whiteee have at least treated my arguments fairly but this is just something else.

I don't even know where the "needs to be referred to as a planet or universe" even came from, that's not even what I was asking for (It was actually Sol who said that in Japanese it refers to either a planet or the universe, and I spoke to numerous native and bilingual Japanese speakers on the site who said that wasn't true), and that wasn't even the main point of my argument. I was saying that "world" doesn't denote size and you can't "scale" uses of the word to other uses because language doesn't operate on battleboarding logic. But okay, I "responded with that it still needs to be referred to as a planet or universe", I'm nitpicking and biased, you guys win, bye bye.

Disappear doesn't mean destroy, yes. I'd like to note that I exited that debate out of respect for Sol's limited time and I don't appreciate treating it like it's a done deal because I decided it was worth it to save time and move onto other points before going back. Pointing it out to diminish my other arguments is just, I don't even know what to say.

I don't care how much knowledge she has of the CU. I don't care how thoroughly she explained what the CU is. The claim isn't that she's super intelligent on the topic. The claim is that she's saying the Sea of Souls is the CU when she doesn't actually directly say this, and it's the people debating her text that are assuming that "sea" must always refer to Sea of Souls and can't possibly be used to metaphorically describe things. I don't need a third explanation of her being in the know-how, I need direct evidence that she's saying the SoS = the CU. If this doesn't exist, then she's not clearly telling us the SoS = the CU and you guys should just move to statements that more clearly support your argument. I was operating on the assumption that there was more to the statements than was presented here, but if there's an outright refusal to just provide more scans so that the rating can be coherently explained on profiles, I feel like good faith has been lost in the debate here.

It is extremely irritating to have to disprove things that don’t exist & define things that are right in front of you, then act like we’re speaking caveman for us to continue it all over.

You guys are speaking perfect English. I just take issue when what's being claimed by you guys and what the scans that are being provided sound completely different, and I'm being told that because I didn't play enough Persona games that I'm not in a position to evaluate these scans when it isn't even my job to prove that they indicate a certain rating or feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am still with Dargoo, what is going on in this thread is pure confirmation bias. There's like 6 people who all went into this thread already agreeing with a result and they can't wrap their heads around anyone possibly disagreeing with them.

Dargoo disagrees. I also disagree. And I think he is perfectly dissecting every argument and when faced with contradictions you just reset back to the starting point of "But this statement confirms it!" when that's the very thing that is being questioned.

This is straight up not healthy. You need to be open to people disagreeing. If your response is to dismiss the person as mentally challenged or nitpicking you have a problem.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Spoiler

Is this you assuming that "sea" that she's reffering to is the Sea of Souls or does she actually drop the full name and say it's the CU somewhere I haven't been shown yet?

Spoiler

Yes. The assumption is pretty concretely evidenced across multiple games. Persona is not referencing "seas" and "oceans" ubiquitously. It comes up in one context, is always in reference to the CU, or at the very minimum stated as the same place whose function is the same as the CU (see personas and demons being stated to come from the CU and Sea of souls).

I've already told you that "Sea of Souls" is another name for the CU that describes it more poetically. I'm not sure why you are citing as if it's an established fact that they are separate entities, especially when all evidence is counter to this.

Again though, there's a lot of padding to the argument here that skids around the main point. I don't think you've responded directly to the argument I made that the SoS being in the CU would basically explain all persona/demon statements, firstly.

I actually did respond to this point though.
"- Not quite. For one when Tatsuya makes his ocean analogy (a term that could easily actually be sea given Persona's translations not being 100% perfect), he is not in a starscape. He is sitting in Kadath Mandala which is its own special area of the CU that sits above reality and is the place where archetypes are born. So he was referring to the collective unconscious as the "ocean" which is just a figurative description of the sum total of psychic/spiritual energy in the CU.
- Once again, the Elizabeth example explicitly has her define the collective unconscious (A domain long before man housing the memories of all life) before telling us that the entity (the previously described CU) is also called a Sea. It doesn't get much clearer than that Imo."

Secondly, if "having a starscape" meaning anything here I'm sure the physical world in Persona 5 counts as the full CU too, them having or not having a starscape doesn't mean anything in this context. And I've looked through all the crossover reverences here and all of them don't directly clarify the claims being brought up here if we remove the assumptions being made by Sol and you.

That wasn't my point. The point was if the sea of souls was a specific place in the CU it would be shown as distinct from other areas. Every time we have seen it is a "starscape". When Tatsuya says "this ocean" he is in Kadath Mandala which is one of the deepest areas of the CU where archetypes are born which is never referred to as a sea of souls. Tatsuya was referring to the CU, as Philemon does when telling them that realities can be remade in the Collective Unconscious.

Idk why you keep saying assumption as if it's not founded in blatant logic. The only reason it's an "assumption" is that the words "The sea of souls and the Collective Unconscious are the same entities" have never appeared on the screen. The evidence almost assuredly implies the Sea of souls is a figurative name for the CU. Evidence that you keep attempting to sidestep while asking for an explicit statement you know doesn't exist. Things can be understood implicitly, especially if your being nailed in the face with the implication.

then we started on the 2-B discussion and I was provided, by you, a whopping 3 scans regarding this "interchanable use" with a bunch of complimentary claims that were tacked on without also being proven. I'm not sure how I can be intellectually dishonest when the definitive proof I'm given is so small in volume relative to the claims that are being made.

You have yet to actually address the scans though. You keep bringing up an argument from ignorance about potential things like "The Sea of souls being a place in the CU" without actually positing evidence for that being the case. We show you Tatsuya calling the CU "an Ocean" where he and his friends can reunite. We show you Elizabeth, in the same sentence, define the collective unconscious to a T, and then directly tell us that some call it a "Sea" (which directly works with my argument of the SoS being a figurative name for the CU). Both of which you sidestep and needlessly conjecture about non evidenced alternatives without ever actually tackling our points.

Sustaining a structure by continuing to exist does not necessarily mean that your combat-applicable AP/Durability can destroy such a structure or create such a structure or destroy characters who can withstand attacks from characters who can destroy such structures. And he doesn't embody either the multiverse or the CU itself; it's just that killing him would set off a sort of chain reaction that would cause both to undo themselves based on how they'd interact if there was no barrier.

We consulted knowledgeable members and explained Umr's existence to them when we first pieced this together and we're told he qualified for scaling. Tbh I'm not really interested in arguing this point as I don't really know the exact standards, so more knowledgeable people can discuss that matter.

It highlights it by association of them both being space-related, sure, but it's not like that's something that needs to actually be done for the argument, and just kind of occupies empty logical space and arguing time from both of us.

I'd say it;s a bit more than that. Given the narrative context and the effect being in sequence with his arrival, and later his description, it was clearly meant to highlight him being a legit boundary. Once again this also being the case given that he is existing in the domain of archetypes.

I'm not sure what point this is trying to make. This seems to give even more credence to the idea that what Yaldabaoth did wasn't 2-B, since neither the Metaverse in P5 nor the physical universe of P5 are (without Low 2-C palaces) 2-B structures. If we can't really discuss this point in particular without also solving the question of Low 2-C it might be better to drop it.

Yes, Yaldabaoth doesn't have any feats that are 2-B outside of his creating the palaces and that being contingent on them being parallel worlds. But you seem to have taken my actual point into consideration a couple of paragraphs down so I will just drop this one.

Fair, I missed that in your last post. Apologies.

No worries.

Yaldy directly clashing with Philemon or interacting with Philemon in a way that he'd scale is news to me, though. Where was this cited on the thread? Do we know specifics on what happened between them?

There are no specifics. We only know that Yaldy did such (and is the only antagonist to ever do so) and Philemon was either helpless, incapacitated, or ambivalent. With the first two options being Yaldy showing supremacy to Phil. Also there is the fact that another administrator, The clockwork god, was able to trap Philemon in his dimension, albeit it's very possible Phil was still weakened at the time.

Noticeably the scaling between Phil and Umr was explained but not cited on the OP or here either. Could that be provided too?

Phil and Nyar are two halves of the CU, and have existed for at bare minimum eons watching life progress. It's generally accepted that they are two of the strongest entities in the story. I don't have time to link scans now but I can find stuff later. Anywho in P2 you can beat up Umr pretty early on into the dungeon and while he isn't killed he is still defeated. Phil is much stronger than the team at this point as Umr is generally on par with Nyarlothotep's avatar, and Philemon's own avatar.

@Dargoo_Faust

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dr._whiteee

Spoiler

Persona is not referencing "seas" and "oceans" ubiquitously. It comes up in one context, is always in reference to the CU, or at the very minimum stated as the same place whose function is the same as the CU (see personas and demons being stated to come from the CU and Sea of souls).

I've already told you that "Sea of Souls" is another name for the CU that describes it more poetically. I'm not sure why you are citing as if it's an established fact that they are separate entities, especially when all evidence is counter to this.

I'm fairly sure the sea used in metaphorical sense to express "sea-like" exists as a term in Persona, as it does in the English/Japanese language. We can choose to interpret this her referencing the SoS, but we can equally just say she was calling the CU "sea-like" by referring it to a sea, since that's entirely plausible within language conventions. Which is why I'm not a big fan of these "what she's saying is super straightforward if we just make X, Y, and Z assumptions" types of arguments, since only reason we're interpreting the statements as straightforward is because we're assuming that anything that's vague regarding it is defined when it really isn't.

I'm not saying's it's established fact that they're separate entities nor is it something I need to establish or prove, really. I'm literally just evaluating the evidence you're giving me to claim "they're the same" and saying that the evidence does not establish the fact that they're the same and loosely implies it at best, like with most earlier-game references in Persona.

I actually did respond to this point though.

This is sort of just a repeat of the two ocean/sea statements that I'm debating you on the above. And I seriously feel like all these deductions being made on them through these points aren't reflective of how indirectly all of this is actually stated in those passages themselves.

But this just basically means that without taking the Sea/Ocean statements as SoS = CU there's no real merit to the Personas/Demons origin place argument, though. I was sort of debating each point on its own merit, of course the SoS = the CU if we're assuming that it's the CU to begin with.

That wasn't my point. The point was if the sea of souls was a specific place in the CU it would be shown as distinct from other areas. Every time we have seen it is a "starscape". When Tatsuya says "this ocean" he is in Kadath Mandala which is one of the deepest areas of the CU where archetypes are born which is never referred to as a sea of souls. Tatsuya was referring to the CU, as Philemon does when telling them that realities can be remade in the Collective Unconscious.

This is kind of silly, no offense. Starscapes look similar only because you're such a massive distance from the stars that it kind of blends into a similar background we call a "starscape". This would be like saying that a section of space in the Milky Way must be the same location as a section of space in the Andromeda galaxy because they aren't distinctly different enough and have stars in the background. Deducing that two things are the same from such a simple visual analysis is pretty flawed, in premise, and I'm not sure why it's being used as an argument here.

I'll drop this argument though since it's heavily contingent on the "ocean/sea" scans being taken seriously, which is just more important to your argument than this.

You have yet to actually address the scans though. You keep bringing up an argument from ignorance about potential things like "The Sea of souls being a place in the CU" without actually positing evidence for that being the case.

The difference here being me not making an actual case of that. I'm saying that we can equally deduce radically different cases from your vague evidence - not that my shoddily evidenced case is any more relevant here than the variety of other shoddily evidenced cases.

And I'm pretty sure I addressed them. They don't directly state what the claims being made off of them say they state, there's an open admittance that there's a variety of assumptions being made about the meaning and implications of what is probably, at best, an off-handed reference to older Persona material, or at worst, using metaphorical language and extremely common words used for metaphorical language (Sea and Ocean).

We show you Tatsuya calling the CU "an Ocean" where he and his friends can reunite. We show you Elizabeth, in the same sentence, define the collective unconscious to a T, and then directly tell us that some call it a "Sea"

Both of which you sidestep and needlessly conjecture about non evidenced alternatives without ever actually tackling our points.

I feel like the point of my "non evidenced alternatives" went straight over your head here.

I can deduce these alternatives just as easily from this evidence, the same evidence you're posting here. If they're really as non-evidenced as you're making them out to be, I don't think that really helps the points you're trying to make here yourself.

I don't really care about defining the SoS as being inside the CU. I'm saying that, the evidence given here doesn't actually give a direct statement of this, and there's so many operative assumptions being placed around the evidence yet also being called part of it that I feel like you're trying to squeeze context out of unimportant phrasing that just simply doesn't exist.

We consulted knowledgeable members and explained Umr's existence to them when we first pieced this together and we're told he qualified for scaling. Tbh I'm not really interested in arguing this point as I don't really know the exact standards, so more knowledgeable people can discuss that matter.

I'd like to consider myself and Matt knowledgeable on what qualifies for a combat-applicable Tier 2 rating on the site, and we're just not seeing it there. If the majority of staff disagrees with us here, I'll drop that point, however if I'm just being asked to evaluate the thread myself, that's my take. There's also plenty of regular users who are very familiar with our system that I'm fine with hearing opinions from.

I'd say it;s a bit more than that. Given the narrative context and the effect being in sequence with his arrival, and later his description, it was clearly meant to highlight him being a legit boundary. Once again this also being the case given that he is existing in the domain of archetypes.

Yes, but we're kind of debating that narrative context right now. It's not like it gives more credence to that context and what you're trying to argue off of it, unless we just assume what you're saying is correct to begin with, which if this was the case we wouldn't be having an argument to begin with right now.

There are no specifics. We only know that Yaldy did such (and is the only antagonist to ever do so) and Philemon was either helpless, incapacitated, or ambivalent. With the first two options being Yaldy showing supremacy to Phil. Also there is the fact that another administrator, The clockwork god, was able to trap Philemon in his dimension, albeit it's very possible Phil was still weakened at the time.

Well, I don't think this is nearly enough information to even give a "possibly" off of the scaling. There's so many factors that could influence how that went down, as you laid out yourself, that I'd be very uncomfortable saying that this means Yaldy can put a fair fight against Phil. I'll be willing to concede it's more possible, and that this can be indexed as a supporting feat, if Low 2-C palaces are accepted, mostly since if that happens it doesn't even really matter what's settled on the Umr point.

Phil and Nyar are two halves of the CU, and have existed for at bare minimum eons watching life progress. It's generally accepted that they are two of the strongest entities in the story. I don't have time to link scans now but I can find stuff later. Anywho in P2 you can beat up Umr pretty early on into the dungeon and while he isn't killed he is still defeated. Phil is much stronger than the team at this point as Umr is generally on par with Nyarlothotep's avatar, and Philemon's own avatar.

That's fine. I don't doubt that, it's just beneficial to list scans for scaling alongside major feats.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I shouldn't even need to be knowledgeable on Persona 5 for you guys to explain the ratings to me. This is how the site works, you're writing profiles that can prove and explain ratings to browsing users or users who are debating you in a VS thread. If I need to actually play every single Persona game to understand what you're putting on the profiles, you're not actually explaining or proving your ratings to the site, you're explaining and proving the rating to the like, 5-6 people who wrote this CRT and already agree with you by defacto. I shouldn't have to explain how that's problematic. Clearly explaining these things is expected of every verse of this scope and I don't see why Persona is the exception here.

As for the rest of this - I legitimately have no clue what you're even trying to say, other than the point that you don't have any of the evidence I was asking for? If it's just boiling down to this, I don't even know why I'm still entertaining these points and not just giving them a flat "no".

That’s not the point I’m making, I have no problem explaining something to someone who doesn’t know. What I don’t like is the fact that we are quite literally doing the same thing we did with Low 2-C Palaces, arguing down to the definition of a word, when said word proves its synonymous with another term consistently. That is my problem. Agreeing with me by defecto?? They were in the server helping create that sandbox from the beginning, I’m just the only one who said anything. Everyone—all the supporters (from the discord), from Whitee, to Sol, to Star, they all helped gather, oversee, and write this, so how is that a problem? If they had a problem with something they made it clear, something Grath & Whitee do often.

I don't even know where the "needs to be referred to as a planet or universe" even came from, that's not even what I was asking for (It was actually Sol who said that in Japanese it refers to either a planet or the universe, and I spoke to numerous native and bilingual Japanese speakers on the site who said that wasn't true), and that wasn't even the main point of my argument. I was saying that "world" doesn't denote size and you can't "scale" uses of the word to other uses because language doesn't operate on battleboarding logic. But okay, I "responded with that it still needs to be referred to as a planet or universe", I'm nitpicking and biased, you guys win, bye bye.

I said you in response to saying that we needed evidence that it has to “bilingual members who have all agreed that the idea that the term must either refer to a planet or the whole observable universe (or society)”, in your words. So if I messed up and unnecessarily brought you into it, my fault.

Disappear doesn't mean destroy, yes. I'd like to note that I exited that debate out of respect for Sol's limited time and I don't appreciate treating it like it's a done deal because I decided it was worth it to save time and move onto other points before going back. Pointing it out to diminish my other arguments is just, I don't even know what to say.

See, this is exactly what I mean. We are arguing the definition of disappear, when context clues already prove that it’s destroyed. The Palace crumbles, Morgana said you can’t ever go back, he says it disappears. The definition of disappear is to vanish, or die out, so why was it such an argument?

I don't care how much knowledge she has of the CU. I don't care how thoroughly she explained what the CU is. The claim isn't that she's super intelligent on the topic. The claim is that she's saying the Sea of Souls is the CU when she doesn't actually directly say this, and it's the people debating her text that are assuming that "sea" must always refer to Sea of Souls and can't possibly be used to metaphorically describe things. I don't need a third explanation of her being in the know-how, I need direct evidence that she's saying the SoS = the CU. If this doesn't exist, then she's not clearly telling us the SoS = the CU and you guys should just move to statements that more clearly support your argument. I was operating on the assumption that there was more to the statements than was presented here, but if there's an outright refusal to just provide more scans so that the rating can be coherently explained on profiles, I feel like good faith has been lost in the debate here.

If Elizabeth’s knowledge has no relevance, why did you use it as a counterargument against Ryuji being knowledgeable on cognitive worlds? What do you mean give more scans? We’ve been giving you consistent scans for everything, and we still haven’t gotten nowhere. Why didn’t you bring up scans to prove Yaldabaoth created the scenery in Palace’s, or anti-feat scans to prove world DOES just mean world and not universe, or scans that a Sea doesn’t mean the CU? We can consistently give you evidence while we argue your interpretation of these words.

You guys are speaking perfect English. I just take issue when what's being claimed by you guys and what the scans that are being provided sound completely different, and I'm being told that because I didn't play enough Persona games that I'm not in a position to evaluate these scans when it isn't even my job to prove that they indicate a certain rating or feat.

That’s not the point, and maybe we see things differently, but the scans here are clear cut as hell to most of us. I literally had Dragonmaster (who as far as I know only knows P5), and Grath (known skeptic) look over said evidence before we even posted this months ago. It’s not about how many games you play, until you say something off the wall like we’re giving you “fan-theories”, but we have to argue things the plot doesn’t even begin to substantiate?

I am still with Dargoo, what is going on in this thread is pure confirmation bias. There's like 6 people who all went into this thread already agreeing with a result and they can't wrap their heads around anyone possibly disagreeing with them.

Dargoo disagrees. I also disagree. And I think he is perfectly dissecting every argument and when faced with contradictions you just reset back to the starting point of "But this statement confirms it!" when that's the very thing that is being questioned.

This is straight up not healthy. You need to be open to people disagreeing. If your response is to dismiss the person as mentally challenged or nitpicking you have a problem.

I have no problem with you disagreeing. Refer to said people agreeing having construct this thread, oversee the evidence, and find it to begin with. Again, my problem is the fact that we’re arguing down to the bone of things that don’t even exist or straight up just arguing the meaning of words that have already been proved consistently.

I...??? Don’t recall ever calling anyone mentally ill/challenged???? If you can show me doing that, I’ll gladly take my strike or something, I never did that to my memory.

I’m not the one who feels this way, I’m just the only one who’s vocal on it, and I’ve tried my hardest to avoid saying anything truly degrading, but that is incredibly difficult when I see you in the discord calling our upgrades whack, saying that you wanna create a general policy on “world”, saying that everyone is 9-B if you had reign of Persona 5, that stuff irritates me completely to the point where it feels like you’re bashing us behind closed doors.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’ll just stay out of this for now, in a attempt to keep things civil & leave things to Sol & Whitee.

 

[00potato]

I think you won Milly, not only did you put the points out well, you even quoted dunkey. I think it’s illegal to disagree when you quote dunkey.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I quoted Dunkey? When?

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Darg was the one who quoted dunkey

 

[00potato]

Wait, now I am conflicted. I thought that was you. Well I sadly am religiously obligated to disagree with tier 2 palaces now sorry.

 

[Zencha9]

based

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Wait, now I am conflicted. I thought that was you. Well I sadly am religiously obligated to disagree with tier 2 palaces now sorry.

Okay, I don’t mind, I guess?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What I don’t like is the fact that we are quite literally doing the same thing we did with Low 2-C Palaces, arguing down to the definition of a word, when said word proves its synonymous with another term consistently. That is my problem.

Of course we're arguing down to the definition of a word. The entire argument is about the definition of "world" in the context of how it's used to describe palaces, what were you expecting us to argue?

I said you in response to saying that we needed evidence that it has to “bilingual members who have all agreed that the idea that the term must either refer to a planet or the whole observable universe (or society)”, in your words. So if I messed up and unnecessarily brought you into it, my fault.

I mean. You kind of left out the imporant bit at the end of that: "is not reflected in modern definitions and uses of the word, and that the usage in Japanese is largely the same in English." I'm saying that it doesn't mean either/or planet/universe, I'm saying that, as our bilingual members have agreed, since the term doesn't carry a set size, you can't use it to *define* a given size because it was simply used to describe a large object in a completely different situation.

See, this is exactly what I mean. We are arguing the definition of disappear, when context clues already prove that it’s destroyed. The Palace crumbles, Morgana said you can’t ever go back, he says it disappears. The definition of disappear is to vanish, or die out, so why was it such an argument?

We're not arguing the definition of disappear. It should be strikingly obvious that disappear doesn't have to mean something is destroyed. Vanishing from sight doesn't need to mean destruction.

We're debating the context. And I don't think the context sufficiently proves that the full dimension, and not just the distortion/palace and its immediate surroundings, was destroyed. Again though, we benched this convo for a reason so I'm not really going to pursue it here unless Sol would like to backtrack on our debate.

If Elizabeth’s knowledge has no relevance, why did you use it as a counterargument against Ryuji being knowledgeable on cognitive worlds? What do you mean give more scans? We’ve been giving you consistent scans for everything, and we still haven’t gotten nowhere. Why didn’t you bring up scans to prove Yaldabaoth created the scenery in Palace’s, or anti-feat scans to prove world DOES just mean world and not universe, or scans that a Sea doesn’t mean the CU? We can consistently give you evidence while we argue your interpretation of these words.

Because I was steelmanning your argument and saying "hey, even if Ryuji is directly telling us this, and he isn't, there's still issues". I already conceded that he was in a good position to make those statements, but that I still had issues with our interpretation of those statements, two entire pages ago so why it's being brought up now is beyond me.

You've been giving me consistent assumptions off of fairly vague or outright misleading scans. I've ran the OP through a number of other users offsite and I'm pretty sure it's not just something that's based on my personal preferences.

Because the whole point is that you guys aren't bringing up scans for your various assumptions either? Why do I need to provide scans for Yaldy creating scenery in Palaces when you guys aren't providing scans for palaces being outright called universes? Why do I need to give anti-feats for the freaking dictionary definition of a word, and why do I need anti-feats when the way the word is used and the way language is used doesn't mean you can "scale" words usage to word usage like they're two characters punching each other? You guys haven't even provided much in the way of new evidence in this entire debate, either, it's been mostly the same scans provided with the same arguments, when all I want to scans for the unproven context you guys keep going off about.

It’s not about how many games you play, until you say something off the wall like we’re giving you “fan-theories”, but we have to argue things the plot doesn’t even begin to substantiate?

I say that when you guys basically refuse to elaborate with more scans instead of elaborating with the same scans and more words. If the context on something isn't clear to me, giving me the same exact evidence and padding out the assumptions around that evidence isn't going to help it be more clear to me.