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Pretty much what Star said.
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Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
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I won’t give an opinion on the thread at hand and my comment is based purely on incredulity, but I can’t get behind the idea of a frail hikkikomori (best) girl having the ability to nuke the universe due to her palace, it being exclusive to the metaverse or otherwise. Now whether or not it’s actually the case isn’t the point I’m trying to make, and I’m personally (somewhat) okay with multiversal EoS.
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Well, I remember being in support of this when I was discussing it in the server I mentioned for reasons that have already been mentioned. So yeah, I support these changes.
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I am kinda tired tonight and I will reply later going over the new statements, which I definitely appreciate to have been given.
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I am currently typing up a response to this however it'll take me a while to get it all through. I want to comment on every part of this CRT and individually weigh in on it without leaving too many stones unturned. Thanks for your guys' patience.
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Phew... this is gonna be a long while.
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Welcome back to CRTs
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Well, buckle in, this one will be a doozy. Reminder that this is my opinion and interpretation of the scans provided, I really don't like arguing as if I possess objective truth.
The logic that "if this/multiple character used this word in a sentence in a specific way once/multiple times, it must therefore hold that all subsequent uses of the word use the same definition" makes utterly no sense when we remove that logic from the context of battleboarding and try applying it to similar words that have multiple meanings. It's not how language works.
For example, I could take a series that focuses on baseball, note that more often than not the word "bat" is used to refer to a wooden tool used in the sport, and then take this logic to say that a character remarking that they "saw a bat fly out of his house" must mean that "a wooden baseball bat levitated out his front door".
Long story short, I disapprove of "proving" that a word that inherently has multiple meanings only has one given meaning in a verse because it's "used more often than not" a certain way. If you seriously want to prove that a character was using "world" to the entire universe, use context from that specific statement and not a bunch of statements that have nothing to do with it and/or are stated by completely different characters. If this is a key part for the upgrades in this CRT, I'll then say I oppose that part of the CRT specifically.
On to other things:
His statement is A) Referring to a specific palace and not palaces in general ("That palace"), and his statement is B) Not saying that the palace mirrors reality perfectly, not saying it is as large as the observable universe, and is only saying that palaces are "based on the real world". You can "base" something off of elements in the real world, say it's "based on the real world", and not have it have the same scope the entire world, let alone the observable universe.
I'm also not convinced Ryuji has a standing to say that Palaces are each universe-sized even if he told us this directly, he isn't as reliable as say, someone like Morgana (who there's a statement for too and I'll get to that).
So, I won't answer this with as much confidence since I have not played Persona 2 and am not an expert in the earlier games. So please bear with me if I'm missing some context with the statements, and I may ask for some additional evidence if something isn't abundantly clear.
Could you also provide evidence that there's a single, continuous Collective Unconsciousness that's the same for all of the later-mentioned universes? I actually wouldn't disagree with this being 2-B if that was the case, and I'll assume in good faith that it is the case and I'm just not remembering something important. However this kind of stops working if there is a different Collective Unconsciousness for each timeline which I can get into after this is rectified.
I'm also not sure if this gives him that AP in the traditional sense either, though. It doesn't really say that Umr can cause those levels of destruction or creation without, well, killing itself, and clearly defeating it normally doesn't cause such a multiversally cataclysmic event. We actually have a lot of characters who we don't scale on-death effects to their other abilities (SCP-682 is a good example of this) so I think more evidence would be needed in this department.
If there's some other context I'm missing here (like the Persona 2 crew killing Umr and just preventing the multiverse from going kaboom) please provide it. Again I'm not familiar with Persona 2.
Also as I said above I'd like to know if the Collective Unconsciousness is not separate/different for each timeline, which seriously affects how I view these statements.
Most of the subsequent scaling is fine, no comment. Yaldy's justifications depend on if each timeline is connected to the same Metaverse, which needs to be proven still and also kind of runs into issues with conflicting mega-events that affect the entire Metaverse in each game.
Okay, hard stuff is over.
Would appreciate if the reasoning for it scaling to the Phantom Thieves (that was supplied on the blog) was cited here, as there's no citation on the blog. Them smacking her around actually doesn't have to do with her lifting strength as much as it has to do with her weight (unless she's actively pushing back), the rest should be cited separately.
If you're talking about her attacking the Theives in-game, I'm pretty sure that her attacks not flinging them around is more of a game mechanic considering they couldn't hold their footing against her flapping her wings in the actual cutscenes.
As a backup feat for otherwise proven Low 2-C ratings, this is fine. However I don't think we should take the statement seriously if there isn't any objective feats to support that rating from later in the games. Considering that I don't approve (currently) of the Low 2-C rating for the Thieves at this part of the game, this statement shouldn't be taken at face-value.
It's stated that he "personifies" the boundaries between worlds, though, not that he's omnipresent throughout them (in the previous scans). Could I get a cite on him being omnipresent, then?
As above, this isn't proven with just the scans provided.
I mean, no offense, but I feel like the majority of the scans are used to justify the first couple parts of the CRT and stuff like this are left out. I understand some things are a given between users who have closely worked on this CRT for a while now, however those outside your circle definitely still need context and scans on everything.
Either way, assuming in good faith this is proven. The spells manifesting based on willpower and imagination does not mean that all spells have the same range. This is sort of like saying that "since Early Dragon Ball Goku used Chi for his attacks, and Dragon Ball Heroes shows us that the upper limits for Chi manipulation in the verse are [whatever]versal, Early Dragon Ball Goku has [whatever]versal range". If we're willing to accept that the Phantom Theives get stronger in AP throughout the games despite this AP being based on willpower and imagination, I don't see why range is any different.
This assumes that the Collective Unconsciousness is multiversal in scope and that these sub-realities in the Collective Unconsciousness are universe-sized and have their own timelines, which as I said above should be proven.
This is assuming that Yaldaboath is retroactively affecting all of these humans and acasually doing so at every moment in history, in one single attack.
From how this is phrased, Yaldaboath is instead just influencing all living humans in the present, which is usually around a flat population of 7 billion, and he's doing this over a massive timeframe that makes even that questionable.
Also, "influencing" can mean that he's manipulating key people and events to domino-effect into affecting other people and events, which basically any competent mindhax user who can affect a few groups at once can do, so if he's directly mindhaxxing every human at once in the Metaverse at any given time should be proven.
This is like saying that mages in D&D have infinite stamina because cantrips exist. This is likely either purely a game mechanic or isn't indicative of Satanael's stamina as a whole, since we do not see Satanael fighting for any significant peroid of time or if he can continue doing this indefinitely.
Jesus that took long. I'll take a break before heading over to other CRTs.
@Solacis , to help prevent this thread from becoming an incoherent mess, let's debate one section of this at a time. Any number from the Lightning Round I'm cool to debate individually, let's just have sectioned-off discussions on the 2-B and Low 2-C ratings, please.
Thanks for your time!
Low 2-C Palaces
This isn't how words work, and the only thing that this necessarily proves is that yes, "world" is a term that can refer to a variety of things.
The logic that "if this/multiple character used this word in a sentence in a specific way once/multiple times, it must therefore hold that all subsequent uses of the word use the same definition" makes utterly no sense when we remove that logic from the context of battleboarding and try applying it to similar words that have multiple meanings. It's not how language works.
For example, I could take a series that focuses on baseball, note that more often than not the word "bat" is used to refer to a wooden tool used in the sport, and then take this logic to say that a character remarking that they "saw a bat fly out of his house" must mean that "a wooden baseball bat levitated out his front door".
Long story short, I disapprove of "proving" that a word that inherently has multiple meanings only has one given meaning in a verse because it's "used more often than not" a certain way. If you seriously want to prove that a character was using "world" to the entire universe, use context from that specific statement and not a bunch of statements that have nothing to do with it and/or are stated by completely different characters. If this is a key part for the upgrades in this CRT, I'll then say I oppose that part of the CRT specifically.
On to other things:
Ryuji's statement is the only one that matters here, the other two don't have anything to do with this point.
His statement is A) Referring to a specific palace and not palaces in general ("That palace"), and his statement is B) Not saying that the palace mirrors reality perfectly, not saying it is as large as the observable universe, and is only saying that palaces are "based on the real world". You can "base" something off of elements in the real world, say it's "based on the real world", and not have it have the same scope the entire world, let alone the observable universe.
I'm also not convinced Ryuji has a standing to say that Palaces are each universe-sized even if he told us this directly, he isn't as reliable as say, someone like Morgana (who there's a statement for too and I'll get to that).
Morgana, like Ryuji, is reffering to a specific palace and his statement only remarks that the parts of the city that looked normal to the thieves are "part of the palace". Morgana does not say "everything" or say "everything extending out to a distance equal to the observable universe".
Overall Verdict: There is insufficient evidence posted in this thread thusfar to demonstrate palaces are Low 2-C in scope.
Umr-at-Tawil 2-B Rating / Scaling
So, I won't answer this with as much confidence since I have not played Persona 2 and am not an expert in the earlier games. So please bear with me if I'm missing some context with the statements, and I may ask for some additional evidence if something isn't abundantly clear.
Could you also provide evidence that there's a single, continuous Collective Unconsciousness that's the same for all of the later-mentioned universes? I actually wouldn't disagree with this being 2-B if that was the case, and I'll assume in good faith that it is the case and I'm just not remembering something important. However this kind of stops working if there is a different Collective Unconsciousness for each timeline which I can get into after this is rectified.
I'm also not sure if this gives him that AP in the traditional sense either, though. It doesn't really say that Umr can cause those levels of destruction or creation without, well, killing itself, and clearly defeating it normally doesn't cause such a multiversally cataclysmic event. We actually have a lot of characters who we don't scale on-death effects to their other abilities (SCP-682 is a good example of this) so I think more evidence would be needed in this department.
If there's some other context I'm missing here (like the Persona 2 crew killing Umr and just preventing the multiverse from going kaboom) please provide it. Again I'm not familiar with Persona 2.
This is all fine. Granted parts of it operate based on assumptions that each person's cognitive perception is in itself a Low 2-C structure, which I have issues with on the above, so while I agree on the existence of a "heccing big" multiverse within Persona, I'll disagree on specific dimensions in it being Low 2-C over just a pocket reality.
Also as I said above I'd like to know if the Collective Unconsciousness is not separate/different for each timeline, which seriously affects how I view these statements.
Most of the subsequent scaling is fine, no comment. Yaldy's justifications depend on if each timeline is connected to the same Metaverse, which needs to be proven still and also kind of runs into issues with conflicting mega-events that affect the entire Metaverse in each game.
Overall Verdict: Depends on future discussion.
Okay, hard stuff is over.
Lightning Round
Completely fine for Isshiki.
Would appreciate if the reasoning for it scaling to the Phantom Thieves (that was supplied on the blog) was cited here, as there's no citation on the blog. Them smacking her around actually doesn't have to do with her lifting strength as much as it has to do with her weight (unless she's actively pushing back), the rest should be cited separately.
If you're talking about her attacking the Theives in-game, I'm pretty sure that her attacks not flinging them around is more of a game mechanic considering they couldn't hold their footing against her flapping her wings in the actual cutscenes.
Overall Verdict: Perfectly fine as a feat for Isshiki, needs more evidence for scaling.
As a backup feat for otherwise proven Low 2-C ratings, this is fine. However I don't think we should take the statement seriously if there isn't any objective feats to support that rating from later in the games. Considering that I don't approve (currently) of the Low 2-C rating for the Thieves at this part of the game, this statement shouldn't be taken at face-value.
Overall Verdict: No, if Low 2-C for the above is rejected.
It's stated that he "personifies" the boundaries between worlds, though, not that he's omnipresent throughout them (in the previous scans). Could I get a cite on him being omnipresent, then?
As above, this isn't proven with just the scans provided.
Overall Verdict: More evidence is needed.
I mean, no offense, but I feel like the majority of the scans are used to justify the first couple parts of the CRT and stuff like this are left out. I understand some things are a given between users who have closely worked on this CRT for a while now, however those outside your circle definitely still need context and scans on everything.
Either way, assuming in good faith this is proven. The spells manifesting based on willpower and imagination does not mean that all spells have the same range. This is sort of like saying that "since Early Dragon Ball Goku used Chi for his attacks, and Dragon Ball Heroes shows us that the upper limits for Chi manipulation in the verse are [whatever]versal, Early Dragon Ball Goku has [whatever]versal range". If we're willing to accept that the Phantom Theives get stronger in AP throughout the games despite this AP being based on willpower and imagination, I don't see why range is any different.
Overall Verdict: More evidence is needed, and if evidence is provided this doesn't prove that all spells used (even by the Early game theives) are Interstellar in range.
This assumes that the Collective Unconsciousness is multiversal in scope and that these sub-realities in the Collective Unconsciousness are universe-sized and have their own timelines, which as I said above should be proven.
Overall Verdict: More evidence is needed.
This is assuming that Yaldaboath is retroactively affecting all of these humans and acasually doing so at every moment in history, in one single attack.
From how this is phrased, Yaldaboath is instead just influencing all living humans in the present, which is usually around a flat population of 7 billion, and he's doing this over a massive timeframe that makes even that questionable.
Also, "influencing" can mean that he's manipulating key people and events to domino-effect into affecting other people and events, which basically any competent mindhax user who can affect a few groups at once can do, so if he's directly mindhaxxing every human at once in the Metaverse at any given time should be proven.
Overall Verdict: Hard no, if further proof is given, soft no.
This is like saying that mages in D&D have infinite stamina because cantrips exist. This is likely either purely a game mechanic or isn't indicative of Satanael's stamina as a whole, since we do not see Satanael fighting for any significant peroid of time or if he can continue doing this indefinitely.
Overall Verdict: No.
Jesus that took long. I'll take a break before heading over to other CRTs.
@Solacis , to help prevent this thread from becoming an incoherent mess, let's debate one section of this at a time. Any number from the Lightning Round I'm cool to debate individually, let's just have sectioned-off discussions on the 2-B and Low 2-C ratings, please.
Thanks for your time!
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I agree with everything he says.
Also, Mada's statement definitely isn't valid. Personas take on the form of mythical demons and gods and also reflect their personalities, but they aren't the real thing. This is explicitly acknowledged in Persona 2, where real demons are noted as being more powerful than their respective Personas.
So Mada's statement about "Swallowing the universe" isn't literally true. Mada the Persona is just a reflection of Mada the Demon from SMT.
Also, Mada's statement definitely isn't valid. Personas take on the form of mythical demons and gods and also reflect their personalities, but they aren't the real thing. This is explicitly acknowledged in Persona 2, where real demons are noted as being more powerful than their respective Personas.
So Mada's statement about "Swallowing the universe" isn't literally true. Mada the Persona is just a reflection of Mada the Demon from SMT.
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My apologies for my late response on this. I'm likely available to look through all the arguments now, though I am a bit unwell, so give me some time.
I recall a lot of this has been discussed over the past few months on the Persona discord servers, and that I've both agreed and disagreed with a lot of the points, so it shouldn't be too tricky to examine the necessary arguments.
EDIT: My apologies, again. I have been looking through the thread, but the screentime is making my headache quite a lot worse, so I won't be able to respond further to this until later; likely tomorrow.
I recall a lot of this has been discussed over the past few months on the Persona discord servers, and that I've both agreed and disagreed with a lot of the points, so it shouldn't be too tricky to examine the necessary arguments.
EDIT: My apologies, again. I have been looking through the thread, but the screentime is making my headache quite a lot worse, so I won't be able to respond further to this until later; likely tomorrow.
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Unless our policy changed recently, I recall that the site uses RPG attack animations as valid feats as a rule of thumb. I don't agree with this personally but I'd need to make a staff thread on that later if that's something I want to change, I believe. The main example for that being Final Fantasy, however that verse underwent some changes recently so I'm not sure if that still holds up.
Granted that doesn't mean it holds true for all RPGs and if the attack animations in Persona don't line up with what the characters demonstrate in the story (for example, if a Phantom Thief expressed trouble doing something at a range obviously less than interstellar) we should prioritize what cutscenes and exposition tell us.
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I think it just, depends on how much sense it makes in context
Like, unless they do it in a cutscene or the attack causes major destruction, having a majority of the planet's surface explode with a summon wouldn't apply if everything is just completely fine the next moment
... Then again that's more my opinion and what I think the standards are because I'm not sure we even have any for it
Like, unless they do it in a cutscene or the attack causes major destruction, having a majority of the planet's surface explode with a summon wouldn't apply if everything is just completely fine the next moment
... Then again that's more my opinion and what I think the standards are because I'm not sure we even have any for it
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I just find it funny that we allow all these cosmic destruction attack animations yet we disallowed the city level Seismic Toss.
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I agree that using those two animations is sketchy actually.
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either way it hasn’t been added to their profiles yet, none of the pt have Interstellar or Galactic range
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I wouldn't recommend coming to any conclusions about Cosmic Flare & such and comparing it to Pokemon, two vastly different systems of power. Regardless, our main head, Sol, isn't up to responding right now due to the draining fest with Matt earlier, and right now, I really have no interest in responding to Dragoo at the moment. I'll get to it soon, all I ask is don't jump to any conclusions just yet, we will respond.
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yeah I wanted to hear ur reasons too
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@Milly_Rocking_Bandit oh I wasn’t fully serious. It was just me being salty lol.
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Absolutely no problem. I'm also extremely drained from both writing out my analysis of this, and working/commenting on other CRTs, so I don't mind a period for everyone to take a breather.
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I wouldn't really blame my being unable to respond due to being drained on the whole thing with Matt, though that's also true. It's moreso that I'm currently undergoing military service and don't really have nearly as much time as I used to. I can respond on my phone, but it's cumbersome since the site lags a good bit on mobile.
My official response will have to wait until Thursday, when I get back home for a long weekend.
My official response will have to wait until Thursday, when I get back home for a long weekend.
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Although, since I did read through the thread a little bit... while I'm here, I'd like to make it known how much I appreciate Dargoo's politeness with his lengthy reply earlier in the thread. The lack of antagonism, subtle or otherwise, as well as the display of humility and general decency is very welcome after dealing with Matt's less-than-likeable tone just prior.
For that reason, I will endeavor to approach the upcoming discussion with utmost respect and level-headedness in return.
For that reason, I will endeavor to approach the upcoming discussion with utmost respect and level-headedness in return.
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Alright, I'm finally available to respond. I'm still a bit headachy today, so I apologise if my response to this is a bit muddled or I make any obvious errors in my evaluation. I'll try and keep my evaluation of each section as detailed as reasonable.
Low 2-C Palaces:
I'll be frank, I could have sworn there were more scans for this section. Would Sol be able to take a look if there were any more supporting scans for this part?
Either way, from what I can see, I'm somewhat neutral. What information I can gain from the scans is that each of the palaces perfectly mirror the Real World, and even parts of the palace outside of what are affected by the distortions are also a part of the palace.
The thing is, we know some of the palaces are undeniably above planetary in size; Okumura's palace is an excellent example, as it is literally in space in a dimension with a starry sky, and I believe that you can see stars in the skies of some of the other palaces as well (don't quote me on that; I'll have to check). It is extraordinarily rare in my experience for a "real world" statement to mean anything other than either
1: Planet Earth
2: The Universe
It physically does not make much sense for it to refer to any amount of space between the two; it wouldn't refer to the solar system that we live in, not the galaxy either. And we know it can't be number 1 here, so I'd go so far as to say I agree with this being evidence for palaces being the size of a universe. However, this is a bit of a convoluted line of logic, and probably not even a perfect one; if there are examples of the "Real World" referring to something larger than a planet and smaller than a universe in fiction, then it'd be good to bring up here. As such, I can't bring myself to have too strong of an opinion on this; I simultaneously understand the line of logic that would lead to this conclusion, and I also understand why the opposition to it would consider it unreliable. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other on this.
Umr-at-Tawil 2-B
I'm admittedly quite a bit less informed on anything prior to Persona 3, but from what I can gather in the scans, this seems perfectly fine to me. Umr-at-Tawil scaling to the entire Collective Unconscious is a given, and the Collective Unconscious being uncountable 2-B has good backing.
I don't know enough about Persona 2 to confirm the validity of the scaling for Nyar, Philemon, and Izanami, but if all the linked statements are correct then it shouldn't be an issue. I feel someone with more knowledge on Persona 2 should confirm whether the Izanami that appears in that game is the same as the one who appears in Persona 4, though (since I recall there being issues with Nyx appearing pre-Persona 3 in a similar situation, when it was discovered that it wasn't the same Nyx)
Yaldabaoth scaling seems fine from the linked statements, though I'd be careful about using Yaldabaoth's own statements as the justification for his tier; he's consistently depicted as a megalomaniacal character with a God complex, who sees himself as a legitimate God despite being a demiurge, and as such his grandiose statements about his power need to be taken with a grain of salt if they don't have other backing sources.
Phantom Thieves Class M Lifting Strength
Should be 100% fine, provided the feat has been calced and accepted by a Calc Group member.
Universal Lifting Strength
I'm surprised to say this, but I actually do agree with this point.
The thing is, statements regarding Personas and their abilities in the Persona games need to be looked at with scrutiny. I've long been against things such as scaling Personas to their descriptions in their "background" sections for this reason; a great example of one Persona who this would be an issue for is Arsene, who is described in detail in their background description as being a gentleman thief who helps law-abiding citizens, despite visibly actually being a demon. This indicates that the background descriptions tell us where the Persona came from and what they were based on, rather than what they are actually capable of.
However, this statement is not from a background description. It's not from a character describing the Persona to the player, hell, it's not even from the being that the Persona was based on. The linked statement is the Persona themselves directly stating to the main character that "yes, I can swallow a universe". And the argument that they simply mirror the personality of the being they are based on doesn't hold any water; Personas directly reference and mention the fact that they are Personas, and that they act only as your mask, yet this statement is the Persona directly telling them of what they are capable of. On top of this, they do not make any distinction between themselves and the usage of the Persona in the statement; the direct quote is
"This infinite well of power... which can swallow the universe... shall become your mask"
If it is the "well of power" which can "swallow the universe" that is becoming their mask, or Persona, then that heavily implies it's the Persona itself that has the ability.
I'm normally the one on Persona threads asking for more evidence and scans for a point, even against the majority opinion; but in this case, I'd actually say I agree with the evidence that has been presented.
Immeasurable Lifting Strength
Another situation where I'll have to say that I don't know enough about pre-Persona 3 to have a detailed or educated response. But if the comment listed is correct, I think that this would work.
Immeasurable Speed
I'm unsure if being able to keep up with an Omnipresent being is basis for Immeasurable speed. I thought that was Infinite speed, but I could be wrong. I'll check for what other characters have similar feats for a more reasonable analysis.
Interstellar, possibly Galactic Range
I'm not sure I agree with this one. While it is true that Persona spells can manifest in many different ways depending on the will and imagination of the user, it seems unreasonable and bordering on NLF to say that this means all Persona spells have the maximum range that any Persona spell has ever demonstrated. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though.
Multiversal Range for Rulers of Power and Deities
Another example of this I recall from Persona Q was Elizabeth casting Megidolaon on the party from the Velvet Room if you cheat on a task she sends you out on outside the Velvet Room. Given that there are multiple examples of this throughout the series, I'm inclined to agree.
Yaldabaoth Mind-Hax Potency
This doesn't link any scans, and while I do recall some discussion on this in the past, I'll have to ask that scans confirming the statements here are linked. Primarily, I don't recall anything about Yaldabaoth mentioning that it had mind-haxed everything alive at the same time that had ever existed since the arrival of Nyx, which is a massive claim. Though I vaguely recall something about it mind-haxing every human, I can't agree with this one without more evidence.
Limitless Stamina for Satanael
This has been brought up in the past, and I don't agree with it. While I understand the line of logic used, we see nothing being used in the scene apart from the unexplained healing from Satanael and Sinful Shell. Also, if either of these cost SP, it would immediately risk softlocking the game due to the fact that you might not have enough SP to actually perform either task at that point. When you combine this with the fact that the counter for SP is largely a game mechanic, and nothing is brought up in this scene to corroborate the idea that it does not take any stamina for them to use, this simply falls under the issue of being too much of an assumption to actually put on a profile.
Low 2-C Palaces:
I'll be frank, I could have sworn there were more scans for this section. Would Sol be able to take a look if there were any more supporting scans for this part?
Either way, from what I can see, I'm somewhat neutral. What information I can gain from the scans is that each of the palaces perfectly mirror the Real World, and even parts of the palace outside of what are affected by the distortions are also a part of the palace.
The thing is, we know some of the palaces are undeniably above planetary in size; Okumura's palace is an excellent example, as it is literally in space in a dimension with a starry sky, and I believe that you can see stars in the skies of some of the other palaces as well (don't quote me on that; I'll have to check). It is extraordinarily rare in my experience for a "real world" statement to mean anything other than either
1: Planet Earth
2: The Universe
It physically does not make much sense for it to refer to any amount of space between the two; it wouldn't refer to the solar system that we live in, not the galaxy either. And we know it can't be number 1 here, so I'd go so far as to say I agree with this being evidence for palaces being the size of a universe. However, this is a bit of a convoluted line of logic, and probably not even a perfect one; if there are examples of the "Real World" referring to something larger than a planet and smaller than a universe in fiction, then it'd be good to bring up here. As such, I can't bring myself to have too strong of an opinion on this; I simultaneously understand the line of logic that would lead to this conclusion, and I also understand why the opposition to it would consider it unreliable. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other on this.
Umr-at-Tawil 2-B
I'm admittedly quite a bit less informed on anything prior to Persona 3, but from what I can gather in the scans, this seems perfectly fine to me. Umr-at-Tawil scaling to the entire Collective Unconscious is a given, and the Collective Unconscious being uncountable 2-B has good backing.
I don't know enough about Persona 2 to confirm the validity of the scaling for Nyar, Philemon, and Izanami, but if all the linked statements are correct then it shouldn't be an issue. I feel someone with more knowledge on Persona 2 should confirm whether the Izanami that appears in that game is the same as the one who appears in Persona 4, though (since I recall there being issues with Nyx appearing pre-Persona 3 in a similar situation, when it was discovered that it wasn't the same Nyx)
Yaldabaoth scaling seems fine from the linked statements, though I'd be careful about using Yaldabaoth's own statements as the justification for his tier; he's consistently depicted as a megalomaniacal character with a God complex, who sees himself as a legitimate God despite being a demiurge, and as such his grandiose statements about his power need to be taken with a grain of salt if they don't have other backing sources.
Phantom Thieves Class M Lifting Strength
Should be 100% fine, provided the feat has been calced and accepted by a Calc Group member.
Universal Lifting Strength
I'm surprised to say this, but I actually do agree with this point.
The thing is, statements regarding Personas and their abilities in the Persona games need to be looked at with scrutiny. I've long been against things such as scaling Personas to their descriptions in their "background" sections for this reason; a great example of one Persona who this would be an issue for is Arsene, who is described in detail in their background description as being a gentleman thief who helps law-abiding citizens, despite visibly actually being a demon. This indicates that the background descriptions tell us where the Persona came from and what they were based on, rather than what they are actually capable of.
However, this statement is not from a background description. It's not from a character describing the Persona to the player, hell, it's not even from the being that the Persona was based on. The linked statement is the Persona themselves directly stating to the main character that "yes, I can swallow a universe". And the argument that they simply mirror the personality of the being they are based on doesn't hold any water; Personas directly reference and mention the fact that they are Personas, and that they act only as your mask, yet this statement is the Persona directly telling them of what they are capable of. On top of this, they do not make any distinction between themselves and the usage of the Persona in the statement; the direct quote is
"This infinite well of power... which can swallow the universe... shall become your mask"
If it is the "well of power" which can "swallow the universe" that is becoming their mask, or Persona, then that heavily implies it's the Persona itself that has the ability.
I'm normally the one on Persona threads asking for more evidence and scans for a point, even against the majority opinion; but in this case, I'd actually say I agree with the evidence that has been presented.
Immeasurable Lifting Strength
Another situation where I'll have to say that I don't know enough about pre-Persona 3 to have a detailed or educated response. But if the comment listed is correct, I think that this would work.
Immeasurable Speed
I'm unsure if being able to keep up with an Omnipresent being is basis for Immeasurable speed. I thought that was Infinite speed, but I could be wrong. I'll check for what other characters have similar feats for a more reasonable analysis.
Interstellar, possibly Galactic Range
I'm not sure I agree with this one. While it is true that Persona spells can manifest in many different ways depending on the will and imagination of the user, it seems unreasonable and bordering on NLF to say that this means all Persona spells have the maximum range that any Persona spell has ever demonstrated. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though.
Multiversal Range for Rulers of Power and Deities
Another example of this I recall from Persona Q was Elizabeth casting Megidolaon on the party from the Velvet Room if you cheat on a task she sends you out on outside the Velvet Room. Given that there are multiple examples of this throughout the series, I'm inclined to agree.
Yaldabaoth Mind-Hax Potency
This doesn't link any scans, and while I do recall some discussion on this in the past, I'll have to ask that scans confirming the statements here are linked. Primarily, I don't recall anything about Yaldabaoth mentioning that it had mind-haxed everything alive at the same time that had ever existed since the arrival of Nyx, which is a massive claim. Though I vaguely recall something about it mind-haxing every human, I can't agree with this one without more evidence.
Limitless Stamina for Satanael
This has been brought up in the past, and I don't agree with it. While I understand the line of logic used, we see nothing being used in the scene apart from the unexplained healing from Satanael and Sinful Shell. Also, if either of these cost SP, it would immediately risk softlocking the game due to the fact that you might not have enough SP to actually perform either task at that point. When you combine this with the fact that the counter for SP is largely a game mechanic, and nothing is brought up in this scene to corroborate the idea that it does not take any stamina for them to use, this simply falls under the issue of being too much of an assumption to actually put on a profile.
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Shido's palace also has stars, so it doesn't have to be space themed like Okumura.
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Yep, good example.
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@DarkGrath
While I don't agree with every bit of your feedback here (which is expected, I'd be surprised if we had the same exact opinion on this, lol), I do think it's very welcome and I'm extremely happy to see that it goes over all relevant parts of the CRT, even parts that are agreed to (and explaining why you agree to it).
@Solacis
I have no issues waiting until Thursday - it's actually better for me too since I'm usually done with my work for the week on the day and I should have more time and energy to have a productive debate.
Thanks for the kind words as well. I'll try and make sure the amicable attitude remains on my end - I won't pretend I'm immune from getting into heated discussions myself.
While I don't agree with every bit of your feedback here (which is expected, I'd be surprised if we had the same exact opinion on this, lol), I do think it's very welcome and I'm extremely happy to see that it goes over all relevant parts of the CRT, even parts that are agreed to (and explaining why you agree to it).
@Solacis
I have no issues waiting until Thursday - it's actually better for me too since I'm usually done with my work for the week on the day and I should have more time and energy to have a productive debate.
Thanks for the kind words as well. I'll try and make sure the amicable attitude remains on my end - I won't pretend I'm immune from getting into heated discussions myself.
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Seeing people getting along in threads is always nice.
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It is pretty nice to see people getting along in debates.
And yeah, waiting until Sol can respond on Thursday seems reasonable to me. HS has started back up here in Australia, so I'll be quite busy the next few days; I'd probably be back into things enough by Thursday to have the time and energy to properly involve myself further in this thread.
And yeah, waiting until Sol can respond on Thursday seems reasonable to me. HS has started back up here in Australia, so I'll be quite busy the next few days; I'd probably be back into things enough by Thursday to have the time and energy to properly involve myself further in this thread.
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@DarkGrath About Yaldabaoth's mindhax, since it's a relatively small point, I can make a reply.
Yaldabaoth created Mementos, which links to and connects every sentient mind a la various statements of it being borderline synonymous with the Collective Unconscious. As per the Persona 3 Club Book, it is stated that all lifeforms that evolved since the arrival of Nyx came to possess sentience. Anything more complex than an amoeba, though more specifically, anything with a limited lifespan, is considered part of this, as it is directly stated that primordial lifeforms sacrificed their immortality to obtain sentience.
I looked online to try and find out how many entities this actually constitutes as, and I found a calculation done by an IRL researcher/scientist/guy with a pHD, who calced it to be approximately 10^29. I swear i linked this though. If it's not there, I'll try and find it again on Thursday.
Yaldabaoth created Mementos, which links to and connects every sentient mind a la various statements of it being borderline synonymous with the Collective Unconscious. As per the Persona 3 Club Book, it is stated that all lifeforms that evolved since the arrival of Nyx came to possess sentience. Anything more complex than an amoeba, though more specifically, anything with a limited lifespan, is considered part of this, as it is directly stated that primordial lifeforms sacrificed their immortality to obtain sentience.
I looked online to try and find out how many entities this actually constitutes as, and I found a calculation done by an IRL researcher/scientist/guy with a pHD, who calced it to be approximately 10^29. I swear i linked this though. If it's not there, I'll try and find it again on Thursday.
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yah theres a link
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Ahh, right. I see.
The link to the calculation is there; I was moreso concerned that the section didn't link any scans or show much reasoning for why they would scale to that many beings.
I'll have to look over this more to come to an educated opinion on the topic, however. Consider me neutral for now.
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Yeah, that's my bad, I'll fully admit. By the point of writing that originally, I had already linked the relevant scans in different parts of the thread, so for some reason I never linked them when relevant to this point specifically. I'll see if I can fix that too when I get back.
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The CU connects everything across time and space, and reacting to a being that's Omnipresent across both time and space would qualify for Immeasurable to my knowledge.
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On the Low 2-C evidence, yes Grath, there was more evidence. Dunno how or what happened, but that evidenced seemed to be cut in half in this CRT when the sandbox had loads of it.
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I agree with everything, minus Satanael limitless stamina (no sense to me) and i'm neutral on Low 2-C palaces until more evidence is provided.
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I agree, it doesn't make much sense.
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