Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[00potato]

this seems ok.

 

[Zencha9]

i agree with the upgrade

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agrees: MillyRockingBandit, Starversal, ZephyrosOmega, Edwardtruong2006, Theuser789, Stupits, ShadowWarrior1999, GlaceonGamez471, Lord Urien935, TheQuirkyBoy, Crump, PuasLuisZX, Yvel Atsly, The Axiom of Virgo, Dragonmasterxyz, Starsprite53, 00Potato, Zencha9, The Second Existential Seed, DragonGamerZ913, DMUA, Cal, DatOneWeeb, Lucas, Icantthinkofagoodname, Whitee, Rikimarox2 (27)

Neutral: Schnee, Grath(Leaning towards agreement) (2)

Disagrees: Dargoo, Matt, Eganergo, SagaTheLegend, Eficiente, Tetsucabrah (6)

 

[Antvasima]

All staff members:

Can somebody summarise the arguments and conclusions here so far please?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Dargoo said he still wants to respond on Discord iirc, that’s why we haven’t said anything.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Ultima_Reality
Do you mind giving your thoughts on the op? It would be very appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

Only staff members can use the notifications function.

@Ultima_Reality

Are you willing to help out here?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Naturally, you can put me down as agreeing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

26-2-6.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Kinda surprised I didn't comment on this thread, since I could've sworn I did. But oh well, I agree aswell.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, that’s another.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dargoo_Faust @DarkGrath

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bump.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I also agree with the upgrade

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

28

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the arguments and conclusions here so far please?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, I mean, we really haven’t came to a conclusion on it, Dargoo is probably busy. Couple mods agree (DMUA, Dragon, Cal, Grath is leaning towards agreement) though.

Despite us having the majority vote, I don’t think that matters, but knowledgeable arguments & an actual agreement between agrees & disagree members.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but what are the summarised suggested changes then?

 

[00potato]

That should be good enough to say that a conclusion was reached. If that many mods are fine, and a ton of normals, we can apply the changes agreed on by the mods.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Let me know if I need to explain these any past what I give, but the current ongoing arguments iirc are

- Low 2-C Palaces
- Mementos being the CU
- Umr's justification for being 2-B(although we're honestly just waiting for more staff on this one)

And as far as conclusions/concessions go, we've only had Darg conceded on the Sea of Souls being another term for the CU.

If any of the other people on the main side of things want to correct/add on anything I missed, feel free.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the summary.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That should be good enough to say that a conclusion was reached. If that many mods are fine, and a ton of normals, we can apply the changes agreed on by the mods.

Dude, no, we aren’t even done arguing & Dargoo still disagrees, I don’t want to upgrade anything unless he accepts or at the very least goes neutral, since he is the only one who’s actually voiced his disagreements.

That isn’t right, Dargoo isn’t even here to defend his argument.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dargoo_Faust are you willing to help us out here?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I did have a lot more to argue, yes, although midterms have severely crippled my available time and I’m still split between a very large number of threads that I am evaluating. However, it was my understanding that we were waiting for more staff members to evaluate if what Umr does constitutes a 2-B feat, since we’ve kind of just reached an impasse there.

Currently, from what I understand, 3 staff members do not think it constitutes Tier 2 (DMUA, Matt, and I) and a similar amount believe it to be Tier 2 (Cal, DDM, I’m guessing Grath, just typing this out of memory); so obviously 2 or 3 more staff opinions would greatly help us move onto other topics.

I have tried informing our staff to look at this thread multiple times now, and most either did not respond or expressed a distaste with reading through this thread’s arguments or just discussing Tier 2 matters entirely.

I am usually just fine deferring to the majority, staff or otherwise, however for matters regarding how we apply and define Tier 2 on our Tiering System I believe it’s far more important to have staff consensus.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thanks for responding, I didn’t want to brush aside any arguments for a cheap upgrade with no resistance & rebuttal.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Although since there has been a lot of discussion since the OP was originally posted, I also think it'd be beneficial to ask if @The_real_cal_howard and @DarkDragonMedeus still have the same opinions of the OP on the two relevant points (Palaces being Low 2-C ; Umr being 2-B) after reading the debate thusfar, since from what I recall they posted very early in the thread.

Points past that haven't been debated with and I think we should keep the debates brief; I'll be mentioning on the discord to see if we can do a sanctioned debate to speed things up.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah...I’m going pure Switzerland here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I read through the thread, and I personally think DarkGrath makes the most sense here after reading through the thread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Thank you for commenting again.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nice.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached a consensus here now?

If not, perhaps Dargoo could posts a summary of the arguments here, after which he or I ask more staff members to take a look and help to evaluate it?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So have you reached a consensus here now?

On the contrary, Cal stepping out of the discussion and DDM agreeing with Grath (who has his own set of reservations with the OP) actually splits the staff consensus significantly, and I'm not sure if there's any remaining staff members that fully agree with the OP at this point.

We still need to possibly finish the 2-B debate (which is still waiting on staff opinions if the feat should be 2-B), then tackle debating my evaluation of the minor additions to the profiles (Lifting Strength, Speed, Mindhax Potency, Stamina). I have talked with supporters offsite and we seem to have agreed to limit ourselves to a set number of responses on those minor changes in order to help wrap up this thread.

If not, perhaps Dargoo could posts a summary of the arguments here, after which he or I ask more staff members to take a look and help to evaluate it?

I can try posting a summary of arguments, however it'll take a while for me to do that with such an extensive discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. I can call several Sysops and Thread Moderators here afterwards.

 

[Solacis]

From what I can remember, the proposed changes and the status of their agreement are as follows:

1. Low 2-C Palaces:

• The argument on this is on hold for the time being. General consensus seems to agree, but those giving actual arguments are quite split on certain semantics concerning the use of the phrases "parallel world" and "alternate reality". Dargoo's agreed to temporarily put this off so we can talk about the rest of the CRT.

2. 2-B Umr-at-Tawil:

• If my memory serves, Dargoo agreed on the Collective Unconscious containing a "heccing big multiverse", but whether Umr-at-Tawil actually scales to all of it is still up in the air. There seems to be an equal amount of people for either side, so we're waiting on more input from those that are knowledgeable about the standards for this sort of thing. Until then, we're at an impasse for this.

3. Phantom Thieves w/ Class M Lifting:

• Rightfully uncontested, since it's just a straightforward calc.

4. Mada's Universal Lifting:

• Grath, and by extension DDM, seem to agree on this. @Dargoo_Faust doesn't believe Mada's statement should be taken at face-value unless Low 2-C Palaces are accepted, but I'd also like to remind him that Mada is a Persona that's only available near the end of the game, where the Phantom Thieves are already Low 2-C anyway, even without Low 2-C Palaces.

5. Umr-at-Tawil's Immeasurable Lifting:

• Depends on whether Umr-at-Tawil's Omnipresence within all boundaries is accepted. There hasn't been any discussion on this yet, from what I've seen, since we're still officially stuck on No. 2.
• That being said, it must be taken into account that Umr-at-Tawil, like all gods in the CU, is a being formed by humanity assigning a name and image to an archetype of thought, in this case being the concept of boundaries. It's a being formed from Cognition, and considering Cognition is Subjective Reality possessed by the collective whole of humanity that affects, reshapes and recreated the entire universe as we know it, it should be more than clear enough that "Umr-at-Tawil" is omnipresent within "boundaries" since Cognition views the two ideas as the same thing.

6. Immeasurable Speed:

• Similar to the above, this relies on Umr-at-Tawil being considered omnipresent. No discussion as of yet.

7. Interstellar/Galactic Range:

• The general consensus appears to be that while Morning Star and similar abilities can be considered to have this range, it shouldn't be assumed that all moves scale to said range, which I can agree with. Unfortunate that Persona is still cursed with shitty range, but oh well.

8. Multiversal Range:

• According to Dargoo, this relies on the CU being multiversal in scope, which I believe has been accepted. Even if Low 2-C Palaces aren't considered, there are still confirmed countless timelines and obscure dimensions within the CU as per statements made by Marie in P4G, and statements made about Umr-at-Tawil.

9. Yaldabaoth's Mindhax:

• I don't remember any discussion about it here, but like has been pointed out early into the thread, this is kind of a moot point since Yaldabaoth's mindhax is already 4-dimensional.

10. Limitless Mental Stamina:

• Consensus seems to consider this an outlier, which makes enough sense to me. I won't bother to debate this point since honestly it's kind of a "meh" thing that I just sorta tacked on at the end to see if it stuck.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

@Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Antoniofer @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @GyroNutz @DarkGrath

Are you willing to evaluate this based on Solacis' post?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

7. Interstellar/Galactic Range:

• The general consensus appears to be that while Morning Star and similar abilities can be considered to have this range, it shouldn't be assumed that all moves scale to said range, which I can agree with. Unfortunate that Persona is still cursed with shitty range, but oh well.

Actually, this can be contested due to one thing: Shadow Wakaba. Throughout this fight, no physical attacks can be used on her. However, any magic attack, even status ailments, can reach her, including things low tier & high tier spells alike. Considering all magic attacks can hit her, regardless of their strength (in fact they spawn on her to be exact) I’d disagree with this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Antoniofer @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @GyroNutz @DarkGrath

We would appreciate some help here.

 

[Solacis]

Actually, this can be contested due to one thing: Shadow Wakaba. Throughout this fight, no physical attacks can be used on her. However, any magic attack, even status ailments, can reach her, including things low tier & high tier spells alike. Considering all magic attacks can hit her, regardless of their strength (in fact they spawn on her to be exact) I’d disagree with this.

That doesn't really say much. We already know that spells are auto-target, but there's a massive difference between hitting someone outside of melee range, and hitting someone entire solar systems away. The main issue here isn't that spells don't have range, but rather, that their individual capacities for range don't necessarily scale to each other.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I have like, no knowledge on Persona. I'll read through the thread when I get the chance but don't expect a solid weigh in on my end.