Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[Dr._whiteee]

Reading over some of the wording it sounds like "significantly affecting" the realities would be justification enough for Umr. So the question would then become does being a "barrier between universes/realities" count as such. When Umr shows up it is noted that space is distorted when he arrives, and we also know that he can BFR to an "unknown dimension" that only he can access. So his existence is also tied into space itself.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He is the avatar of Yog-Sothoth, who’s death would mean the end of all of space-time in Persona’s countless multiverse.

 

[GrathOfLux]

One of the problems I'm noticing here is that there are a lot of conflicting examples of characters being thrown around.

As mentioned before, there are D&D characters who have 2-A justifications that are, in part, based on the level of destruction caused upon their death. But Dargoo has also mentioned SCP-682, a character who would destroy the entire universe if they were to be killed, but is only listed at tier 8.

This leads me to consider one of two conclusions:

1: There's a notable difference between the cases of characters like those D&D characters and SCP-682. This difference would be enough to make the feat count for tiering in the former case, but not the latter case; hence the different ratings. We could then just apply that logic here to come to a conclusion as to whether or not this would count for 2-B.

2: We actually just may not really have good standards on this, and it's possible that this is just the result of different people adding different ratings onto profiles with different ideas of what should count.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As mentioned before, there are D&D characters who have 2-A justifications that are, in part, based on the level of destruction caused upon their death. But Dargoo has also mentioned SCP-682, a character who would destroy the entire universe if they were to be killed, but is only listed at tier 8.

Well, firstly, a big distinction in my opinion is that (like Qaw mentioned earlier) for the D&D deities the feat is an accessory to otherwise solid ratings, while for Persona we're trying to solely determine the tier based on this singular feat.

I can try and get more examples to compare to this.

 

[GrathOfLux]

The problem is that it's either a justification, or it's not a justification.

I can understand justifications being accessories to more solid justifications, but if it isn't a good justification for the tier on its own, it really shouldn't be on the profile in the first place.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don’t think this discussion on higher AP upon death counts for Umr, because again, even without his death, he’s passively sustaining and keeping countless realities from collapsing on each other with no difficulty, and only cannot once he is:

- Incapacitated (likely what Yaldy did)
- Killed (which would be a multiversal merging)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, it can be listed for the tier as to what happens when they die. Would be kind of weird to list it as 2-A, 2-A via death I'd imagine,

That and justifications that don't actually prove a given tier are extremely common on any of our profiles. It's even more common to list below-tier feats.

- Incapacitated (likely what Yaldy did)

I don't recall us being told Yaldy incapacitated Umr, personally. And that this is how he accomplished the merge.

That and doesn't the Persona 2 crew incapacitate him too, which contradicts this theory?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m fairly certain that was the old justification for Yaldabaoth scaling in the sandbox, but stuff has changed in the CRT evidently so I could be wrong, do not take my word as law. Lemme go check.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Well, fair enough.

Point is, we need to get down whether this is a reasonable justification, and I'm not sure if we can come to a conclusion by using examples of other characters without more context on why it does or does not work for their rating.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay looking back, it’s the creation of Mementos, apologies for the mishap. It’s elaborated in the OP.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not sure if we can come to a conclusion by using examples of other characters without more context on why it does or does not work for their rating.

That and we genuinely need more staff to give an input here. It's a bit frustrating that a lot of our staff members avoid Tier 2 evaluations.

I'll go through the wiki and try to pull more examples.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Given how Yaldy’s plans directly conflict Umr, and I believe we’ve already established that the CU is the same throughout all games, there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that Yaldabaoth had to have overpowered Umr when fusing the Sea of Hearts/Souls w/reality. However, if this still doesn’t want to be accepted, it’s whatever given that he’d still get a 2-B rating through either scaling method.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't see why Yaldy would need to incapacitate or fight Umr to accomplish what he did in P5. What he did didn't even interact with a fraction of a fraction of Umr's domain and didn't affect, from what I understand, the CU as a whole but just his own very specific section of it.

Like it's such a small fraction of what Umr embodies that it'd be equivalent to saying a bacteria removed a cell from your body and then saying that bacteria must be 10-A since what it did "directly conflicts" with the human body.

So I don't think Yaldy's plan, since it was limited to Mementos + the P5 Universe, is grounds for him to scale to (assuming Umr is 2-B, which is also contentious) Umr fully. IMO his rating depends entirely on Low 2-C palaces being a thing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Um, Yaldy’s new justification has elaborated in the OP. It has nothing to do with Umr, but simply creating a space comparable in size to the CU & attempting to fuse them together.

Edit: Actually, it still would have to be comparable to Umr, as Mementos would be another boundary for him to keep from collapsing in, meaning that Yaldy must’ve gotten past him in order to do it. Umr is an absolute jackass when it comes to his boundaries (like an old man watching kids on his yard), and that’s the entire reason he fought the P2 cast.

• Yaldabaoth via having created Mementos and having control over the entire Metaverse, which is considered equivalent to the entire Collective Unconscious, which is a multiversal structure. This is established by several knowledgeable characters, such as Morgana, who refers to Mementos as the Collective Unconscious; Azathoth, who equates the Metaverse with the Sea of Souls(which is another name for the Collective Unconscious); as well as Yaldabaoth himself, who directly refers to himself as the administrator of the Collective Unconscious, citing its desire for ruin.

 

[Solacis]

It might be more accurate to say that Mementos is considered equivalent with the CU, not the Metaverse. It is explicitly Mementos being fused with reality, by word of Yaldy himself. It's just that Mementos is repeatedly referred to as the CU/Sea of Souls by knowledgeable characters, and we know how huge the latter is.

And even if Umr doesn't directly scale to Yaldy, he would still be 2-B via scaling chain. Lavenza backscales from Yaldabaoth, and the other Attendants scale to Lavenza. Makoto Yuki scales above Elizabeth, and End-Game SEES scales to Makoto. P4's team scales above SEES via keeping up with the Shadow Ops, Izanami scales above P4's team, and she was comparable, if not inferior to Umr-at-Tawil in P2.

This fits perfectly with the multiversal destruction that would be caused by Umr's death, and such destruction would thus be usable as supplementary evidence to the rating in the same manner as the above example with 2-A D&D characters.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Azathoth, who equates the Metaverse with the Sea of Souls(which is another name for the Collective Unconscious); as well as Yaldabaoth himself, who directly refers to himself as the administrator of the Collective Unconscious, citing its desire for ruin.

I already voiced my complaints with those statements, but I guess I'll do so again.

Azatoth doesn't directly equate the Metaverse and Sea of Souls in that statement. I'm a bit more familiar with the context on this one than I was on the Persona 2 statements and I don't recall anything that really contextualizes him as saying they're one and the same either.

The second scan is just incorrectly described. He refers to himself as "the administrator born of the collective unconsciousness". We already know that he's born from the CU, this doesn't change anything.

The third scan is similar to the first. He doesn't directly refer to the CU.

I just straight-up don't have it in me for another 2-page debate on context and semantics so take my analysis as you will. If other administrators are fine with the statement go with them, I'm just out of energy at this point.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He does, as “heart” is often used to indicate ones cognitive world, which is heavily elaborated by the Shadows/Persona’s in P5 especially, and the phrase “sea”, as elaborated on by Whitee, refers to the CU, as said by Maki & Elizabeth.

Born of it yes, but he had more than enough strength to control it (erased the PT’s from the story). I’m fairly lost on the third point there, but I’ll wait for Sol & Whitee to elaborate or explain better if they can.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Sol is apparently gonna be busy with military stuff, so I guess we can either wait for Dragon or Grath to comment or me, Milly, and eventually Whiteee can spearhead the remainder of these Part 1 revisions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I can still respond, me, Grath, Whitee, and Star if we can.

Gonna try and keep things civil if I respond.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't see why Yaldy would need to incapacitate or fight Umr to accomplish what he did in P5. What he did didn't even interact with a fraction of a fraction of Umr's domain and didn't affect, from what I understand, the CU as a whole but just his own very specific section of it.

Like it's such a small fraction of what Umr embodies that it'd be equivalent to saying a bacteria removed a cell from your body and then saying that bacteria must be 10-A since what it did "directly conflicts" with the human body.

So I don't think Yaldy's plan, since it was limited to Mementos + the P5 Universe, is grounds for him to scale to (assuming Umr is 2-B, which is also contentious) Umr fully. IMO his rating depends entirely on Low 2-C palaces being a thing.

Because Umr is specifically tasked with being a gatekeeper between the worlds. Even when Randolph Carter had the key to enter Umr still fought Tatsuya and Co. as Carter's guests. He is also specifically noted to not like when people sneak around his back and that is when he BFR's people to his unknown dimension. So yaldabaoth messing with Umr's very fabric in the slightest is likely to elicit a response from him. There is no reason to really assume he wouldn't do his job.

Azatoth's statement is saying that Yaldabaoth fused the sea of souls with reality.

I already voiced my complaints with those statements, but I guess I'll do so again.

Azatoth doesn't directly equate the Metaverse and Sea of Souls in that statement. I'm a bit more familiar with the context on this one than I was on the Persona 2 statements and I don't recall anything that really contextualizes him as saying they're one and the same either.

Actually, it does. All persona are born in Kadath Mandala. One of the uppermost regions of the CU which sits atop all of macro cosmos and where the archetypes are born. This is important because Azatoth clearly states "Your reality and sea of hearts (souls) from which I came have truly become one at this moment." There are no two kadath mandala's. There is only one that sits deep in the sum total of CU (the multiverse CU that connects physical/cognitive realities.) and that is specifically what Azatoth is saying is connected to reality via Yaldabaoth.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is true, by the way, as it’s stated that they spawn in the Kadath Mandala. Along with the fact that it’s above the micro & macrocosm.

 

[Schnee_One]

If I may (Given nobody else seems to be doing it), we do consider people sustaining universes with their power to be AP related, as we have done with Hades from Saint Seiya, however I don't think Yaldy would scale to 2B as even after he is killed (And Maruki's heart is changed) we still see in Persona 5 scramble that mementos are still around

 

[Stupits]

If I may (Given nobody else seems to be doing it), we do consider people sustaining universes with their power to be AP related, as we have done with Hades from Saint Seiya, however I don't think Yaldy would scale to 2B as even after he is killed (And Maruki's heart is changed) we still see in Persona 5 scramble that mementos are still around

I didn’t play it but iirc someone else took control right?

 

[Schnee_One]

Yaldaboath, then Maruki, then the girl in Scramble 6 months later.

Point is, I don't think Mementos just goes away when its ruler is killed, It simply just exists waiting to be ruled.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If I may (Given nobody else seems to be doing it), we do consider people sustaining universes with their power to be AP related, as we have done with Hades from Saint Seiya, however I don't think Yaldy would scale to 2B as even after he is killed (And Maruki's heart is changed) we still see in Persona 5 scramble that mementos are still around

But no one said that Mementos was destroyed? Nor was that ever argument, it was that he created a reality (Metaverse) that was a mirror of the universe, and Mementos, which is comparable in size to the CU? It’s a creation feat.

 

[Schnee_One]

That wasn't? Were there not arguments this entire time that sustaining the creation of the collective unconsciousness was in fact the feat that they scaled too?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That wasn't? Were there not arguments this entire time that sustaining the creation of the collective unconsciousness was in fact the feat that they scaled too?

I also don't understand Yaldy being 2-B outside of the context of assuming Palaces are Low 2-C.

Mementos being the same size as the CU is also something I don't think was proven, the argument seems to be, from whiteee and Sol, that Mementos is the CU, although this has confused me even further since several of their previous comments has suggested the Metaverse is separate from the CU and doesn't encompass the same scope.

Mementos being separate from the Metaverse is also something rather confusing too, as it's accessed from the Meta-Nav and I recall quite a few times in P5 where it was called the "heart" of the Metaverse.

Even if Mementos is another moniker for the CU, though, I don't think merging the real world with it is necessarily a 2-B feat, since the real world in Persona is just a Low 2-C structure. As opposed to merging two structures that are similar in scope, such as two universes, this is merging something far, far smaller in scope with something far larger, like putting a raindrop in a bucket.

I'll be continuing the debate here after I discuss with whiteee and Sol offsite about this though.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That wasn't? Were there not arguments this entire time that sustaining the creation of the collective unconsciousness was in fact the feat that they scaled too?

Uh... no? Schnee what are you talking about? Umr sustained the BOUNDARIES of countless cognitive & physical realities, including the Metaverse & Mementos.

None of them have ever been destroyed/collapsed, as if Mementos did, every human would go braindead, and every reality would collapse on itself.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Umr sustained the BOUNDARIES of countless cognitive & physical realities, including the Metaverse & Mementos.

Which is different, IMO, than what Schnee described here:

people sustaining universes with their power to be AP related, as we have done with Hades from Saint Seiya

Since Umr isn't directly sustaining the CU/Reality and they don't just get deleted when he dies, they just merge and mutually annihilate each other / turn into something unrecognizable. I think that's different than what was accepted for Saint Seiya by a fair margin.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think you, and Schnee are getting things entirely confused. The only sustaining universe statements are Palaces, and the actual Metaverse, which was already proven to be a universe (see Yaldabaoth’s profile). Rulers sustain their Palaces, Yaldabaoth sustains the Metaverse. That’s why in Scramble, it’s gone, because Maruki & Yaldabaoth are defeated.

Umr... is though?? He’s sustaining every single universe, cognitive and physical from merging into one gigantic mesh of every single reality within Persona. That’s what he’s doing, the CU was created by humans, and Umr makes sure nothing merges together unless he is unable to do that.

Also, yes, Mementos being comparable in size to the CU was proven, as it was stated by Morgana. Again, Mementos was never merged with reality, the Metaverse was, which is why it’s never stated to be destroyed, only the Metaverse. And yeah, Mementos is the core of the Metaverse, that has been stated. However I’m not sure how this changes anything.

 

[Schnee_One]

"Rulers sustain their Palaces, Yaldabaoth sustains the Metaverse. That’s why in Scramble, it’s gone, because Maruki & Yaldabaoth are defeated."

If this is true why was this not used as a feat?

I might be confusing it with Nyx though

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

SPOILERS FOR PERSONA 5 SCRAMBLE

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“This indicates that unlike the previous Metaverse surrounding Mementos (and much unlike other locations in Persona where combat took place), the Metaverse generated within EMMA is not a part of the collective unconscious, but an artificial system manually generated out of misguided altruism from certain individuals as opposed to being automatically generated by collective desires as before.”

They directly say that Mementos & the Metaverse are connected to the CU, which follows back into Morgana’s statement, it being comparable in size to CU.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ah, okay

Though, that goes back to Maruki and Yaldaboath sustaining the collective unconsciousness, which is a feat Im pretty sure was brought up multiple times.

Or was it Nyx? Given he literally is the collective unconcious

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ah, okay

Though, that goes back to Maruki and Yaldaboath sustaining the collective unconsciousness, which is a feat Im pretty sure was brought up multiple times.

Or was it Nyx? Given he literally is the collective unconcious

No, no.

Maruki is superior to Yaldy, who created both, stated by Lavenza. That’s why he scales

Half of Nyx>CU, as her psyche (the part trapped on Earth) is what made the humans create the CU, even though it retroactively existed beforehand.

We’ve been using the sustaining feats for Palace Rulers this entire time, and trying to push for it.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I also don't understand Yaldy being 2-B outside of the context of assuming Palaces are Low 2-C.

It's via scaling to Umr (which would be countless 2-B) and his own feat of sustaining the metaverse (thousands to millions 2-B). I don't really think it's an "assumption". I think your point about the whole "world" fiasco is overly reductionist and kinda misses all the positive evidence in favor of them being universes.
-It's been demonstrated that in persona "reality" and "world" are consistently used to refer to a universe, or macroverse. Thus establishing an internal consistency with their terminology.
- The director himself refers to these places as "Parallel Worlds" which is most frequently in reference to universes. This especially being the case when we've palaces display starry night skies, and have even seen palaces on a galactic scale. So we know it doesn't mean "parallel Earth".
- Morgana calls these things substantial worlds, and palaces overlay perfectly with the real world except in areas of distortion.

Mementos being the same size as the CU is also something I don't think was proven, the argument seems to be, from whiteee and Sol, that Mementos is the CU, although this has confused me even further since several of their previous comments has suggested the Metaverse is separate from the CU and doesn't encompass the same scope.

Mementos is the CU. Mementos is what Yald claims he fused with reality. We know via Azathoth that he fused where Azatoth comes from (sea of souls, more specifically Kadath Mandala). Mementos is stated by Morgana to be the CU. I messed up earlier because I misremembered if Yald said he fused the metaverse, or mementos but it turned out to be mementos. So part of the confusion is on me.

The CU is existence. The metaverse is the specific area that Yaldabaoth creates to exercise his plans such as dealing with the palace owners and inviting Ren and Co into the world with the navs. The metaverse is the CU but the CU is not the metaverse.

Mementos being separate from the Metaverse is also something rather confusing too, as it's accessed from the Meta-Nav and I recall quite a few times in P5 where it was called the "heart" of the Metaverse.

The metanav isn't necessarily exclusive to the metaverse. It's yaldabaoth power dimension-hopping them. The metaverse is dependant upon the CU.

Even if Mementos is another moniker for the CU, though, I don't think merging the real world with it is necessarily a 2-B feat, since the real world in Persona is just a Low 2-C structure. As opposed to merging two structures that are similar in scope, such as two universes, this is merging something far, far smaller in scope with something far larger, like putting a raindrop in a bucket.

I'm not sure how it works exactly but Yaldabaoth would still be exercising a significant effect on something the scope of 2-B.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He would be merging the two realities together, which would easily fit the bill.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am still 100% in agreement with Dargoo.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay...? No one doubted that.

 

[Schnee_One]

I retract my agreement from Dargoo, Im more neutral for now

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m going to read the thread and count up all the stances.