Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[The_Wright_Way]

There's a big difference between hitting someone that can fly and hitting someone in another galaxy. The galaxy wide range should only scale to the attacks that have shown it, bit to all of their spells.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Damn, alright. Then again does range really matter to attacks that spawn on you?

 

[Zencha9]

i mean don't they have to know how far the opponent is to spwan the spells on them ?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If they can see them, it’ll spawn on them via thought.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to all staff members who are helping out here.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'll quickly summarise my position on all the different parts of the CRT, since I probably should be a bit more involved in this than I am.

1: Low 2-C Palaces

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I'm neutral, but noticeably leaning towards agreement.

2: 2-B Umr-at Tawil

As mentioned by Sol, this one comes down heavily to our standards for this kind of situation; standards which are either vague, or don't even exist. I'm basically neutral here.

3: Class M Lifting Strength for the PT's

Agreed. Since it's pretty simple and straightforward, I don't see anything to contest about this rating.

4: Universal Lifting Strength for Mada

While I understand that this one is controversial and may need more discussion, I've openly fully agreed with this one in the past. I still do.

5: Immeasurable Lifting Strength for Umr-at Tawil

As Sol mentioned, this one is partially linked to No.2, so it's at a bit of an impasse. But with the reasoning Sol provided, I'd consider myself neutral, leaning towards agreement.

6: Immeasurable Speed

Neutral. Again, reliant on earlier discussion that hasn't been concluded.

7: Range

Agreed. I'm unsure what range exactly all the moves would be put at, but there distinctly appears to be a difference in how long-range many of the moves are.

8: Multiversal Range

If nothing else, it is pretty clear that the CU is multiversal in size, so this should be fine.

9: Yaldabaoth's Mindhax

Just, well, what Sol said I suppose.

10: Limitless Mental Stamina

I've mentioned before that I do not agree with this because I feel it extrapolates far too much from a very limited and easily misconstrued amount of information. However, I disagree with calling it an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the arguments for and against 2-B attack potency, immeasurable speed and lifting strength, and limitless/infinite stamina?

Also, thank you to all staff members who are helping out here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

2-B is scaling to Umr, however Dargoo doesn’t believe keeping up countless realities scales to AP.

Immeasurable hasn’t been contested.

Lifting hasn’t been contested.

Stamina has, but I forget why.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, what are the given arguments for these suggested statistics. Meaning, what feats are they based on?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It’s in the OP, Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I read through the OP.

Part of it seems to make sense.

However, we cannot scale speed from omnipresence, as it is a state of being, not a speed.

We cannot scale either universal or immeasurable lifting strength from attack potency.

Limitless stamina seems to have a very flimsy and subjective basis.

Umr-at-Tawil embodying boundaries between all realities in the collective unconscious seems rather unquantifiable, and starting a chain reaction by removing them, also seems hard to measure properly. I am very uneasy with giving such a high statistic to so many characters because of this.

If Yaldabaoth encompasses the entire Metaverse, I think that this entity should scale to 2-B though.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

However, we cannot scale speed from omnipresence, as it is a state of being, not a speed.

We cannot scale tieiher universal or immeasurable lifting strength from attack potency.

Limitless stamina seems to have a very flimsy and subjective basis.

Eficiente said it was on an old thread, where in Sol asked if reaching to an omnipresent in a fight was immeasurable. Even if not, the Velvet Room is a place in where time & space do not apply, yet Minato was able to travel to an entirely different universe through sheer speed alone through it, which would be.

Attack Potency no, but they weren’t just blocking Adam Kadmon’s attack, they were holding his fist back long enough for Joker to seal the deal on him, which would be.

Limitless stamina I’m neutral on.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Umr-at-Tawil embodying boundaries between all realities in the collective unconscious seems rather unquantifiable, and starting a chain reaction by removing them, also seems hard to measure properly. I am very uneasy with giving such a high statistic to so many characters because of this.

No, no, he doesn’t remove them, they just disappear as he dies, and every reality in Persona falls into itself, making a large mesh and wiping individual conscience. The 2-B is Umr passively keeping and holding apart countless realities, every single reality in Persona, from merging with another accidentally, and is even capable of doing so in a fight. This isn’t said to be done with any magic or the sort, so it’s definitely sheer AP that’s doing this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am neutral about lifting strength and Umr's 2-B rating then, but we definitely cannot scale speed from the illogical plot inconsistency of fighting omnipresent entities by punching them in the face (unless the characters fight avatars).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But... Ant, Umr is the avatar. His true form is Yog-Sothoth, the embodiment of time-space across all of Persona, as opposed to his lesser form, Umr, which are the boundaries between all of Persona’s realities.

 

[Antvasima]

If what the protagonists fight is of comparable size to themselves, it is logically not remotely the infinite size of the full entity, i.e. just a manifestation that it interacts with others through.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But the fight was in the CU, and already countless sized space in which Umr resides in. They literally fought him in his domain because he was a hard ass. Umr is literally made of mist.

 

[Antvasima]

If what they fought was of comparable size to themselves, it logically cannot remotely have been his full body, alternately it is an illogical plothole, and we wouldn't be able to scale speed from a state of being anyway.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Umr-at-Tawil exists as a formless mist that constantly spews from the ground, he isn’t a “body”, he is literally a gaseous substance across the entire CU.

They fought all of him.

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't possible for a 1.7 meters tall human to fight the entirety of an infinitely large character by punching him. Also, we still cannot scale speed from a state of being.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, that’s the thing, they didn’t just punch him, they have magic, AOE magic at that too.

 

[Antvasima]

Could they affect him via limited area physical attacks? In that case they logically did not fight the entire body of the entity.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

They could, yes, but I don’t exactly see how that matters when it’s an RPG, and again, he’s a gaseous mist, so he’s everywhere and anywhere. Coupled with the fact that their punches are capable of hitting beings that aren’t physical, even down to their information, I would say it’s fine.

Edit: Turns out Umr is only NIGH-omnipresent. Oh well, still have immeasurable speed regardless.

 

[Solacis]

We can't scale speed from regular Omnipresence, yes, but Omnipresence across time is definitely something we can and have scaled speed from before on the wiki. Umr-at-Tawil being omnipresent across the CU, which connects past, present and future across uncountable parallel worlds and alternate realities, would mean anyone capable of keeping up with it would logically have to be of Immeasurable Speed. Just because the cast fights against a manifestation of it that appears of similar size to them doesn't really matter; it's an abstract existence by nature that exists in a world purely composed of manifested thought.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most omnipresents are depicted as something of tangible size, and even sometimes can only be interacted with at a specific location, like a throne room, yet clearly that doesn't take away from their status as omnipresent beings.

 

[Antvasima]

We are very specific regarding the requirements for immeasurable speed. It is strictly for those characters that are shown as able to move everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.

What you are suggesting, i.e. scaling speed from fighting omnipresent entities, would be a special standard that you just made up, and is as such completely unacceptable, period, especially if the characters in question have not been portrayed at anywhere near such speed levels otherwise.

I would appreciate if we can immediately and permanently drop this issue, as it is never going to be accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, they were apparently only engaged in fighting an infinitely small part of the entity anyway.

 

[Schnee_One]

<Omnipresence across time is definitely something we can scale speed of off.

I don’t think it actually is, BB from Fate Extra is omnipresent across time but she’s only MFTL+. It’s a matter of how fast you are at certain points in time that warrant speed

Disagree with immeasurable

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We are very specific regarding the requirements for immeasurable speed. It is strictly for those characters that are shown as able to move everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.

What you are suggesting, i.e. scaling speed from fighting omnipresent entities, would be a special standard that you just made up, and is as such completely unacceptable, period, especially if the characters in question have not been portrayed at anywhere near such speed levels otherwise.

I would appreciate if we can immediately and permanently drop this issue, as it is never going to be accepted.

Except that weaker characters have moved at immeasurable speed, again. Eficiente said it was on an old thread, where in Sol asked if reaching to an omnipresent in a fight was immeasurable. Unfortunately it’s not archived, so I’ll ask him myself again. Even if not, the Velvet Room is a place in where time & space do not apply, yet Minato was able to travel to an entirely different universe through sheer speed alone through it, which would be.

Ant, I would highly suggest please stopping with the “drop this issue permanently” just because you disagree with it. Dargoo didn’t do it to us because he disagreed, Matt didn’t do because he disagreed, and it’s outright unfair to never be able to discuss something because you disagree. Unless being mod allows you to shut down things you disagree with no response this thread might as well just stop here since there’s been disagreements. This can easily be talked out (as seen as Dargoo is in our server).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, they were apparently only engaged in fighting an infinitely small part of the entity anyway.

And no one said that either.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

<Omnipresence across time is definitely something we can scale speed of off.

I don’t think it actually is, BB from Fate Extra is omnipresent across time but she’s only MFTL+. It’s a matter of how fast you are at certain points in time that warrant speed

Disagree with immeasurable

This is different, as its specified that only BB’s MIND can do that on her own profile:

Nigh-Omnipresence (Exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously, and can freely jump between them with a "higher-dimensional perspective" of space-time)

Higher-Dimensional Existence (Her mind only - After absorbing the Mooncell, BB gained a Higher Dimensional Mind. She can view the entire Multiverse and its history as if it was a book)

Umr’s entire body is Omnipresent.

 

[Antvasima]

I am trying to explain that it is blatantly against our rules to scale speed in the manner that you try to push through. A casual past comment from Eficiente due to some misunderstanding does not change that, and I have many many other tasks to focus on, rather than repeatedly banging my head against a wall with this one. That is why I want you to drop it. These types of stupid situations have turned extremely tiresome to deal with in the long run.

Also, an omnipresent entity is infinitely large per definition. If the protagonists only fought a being of finite size, it only takes rudimentary logic to conclude that they did not fight the entire entity, regardless whether it was stated outright or not.

 

[Schnee_One]

Let’s put that aside for now and settle that standard on a different thread.

Concluding other things here before tackling a standard like that will get more things done at once, whether it’s rejected or not.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’ll take that, fine.

 

[Antvasima]

We have had several very long discussions about our speed standards in the past, and had more highly knowledgeable members available back then. We should definitely not start to try to mess with them.

Anyway, my apologies if I am being grouchy and impatient. I am stressed out in general right now.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That’s fine. Has fighting an omnipresent in specific ever been discussed though?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it has come up a few times before, yes.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, well then I personally will concede for brevity, but the other Velvet Room scans are good enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, so other than immeasurable speed and limitless stamina, what should we do here? What do the rest of the staff think?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Anyway, so other than immeasurable speed and limitless stamina, what should we do here? What do the rest of the staff think?

Immeasurable Speed is fine, but for different reasons. I’ll list them again: the Velvet Room is a place in where time & space do not apply, yet Minato was able to travel to an entirely different universe through sheer speed alone through it, which would be.