PC-98 and Windows Canons

[Udlmaster]

Okay, for the longest time, we've been thinking about: "Is the PC-98 Series cannon or not" and there are things to support this such as characters like Alice, Yuuka, from the PC-98 Cannon, but what I've discovered is the man (The Myth, the Legend) himself (ZUN) stating that the PC-98 series is the same as the Windows Era Touhou games!

Q: Are the PC-98 games considered canon compared to the Windows series?ZUN: It's the same world. There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon. PC-98 games considered cano compared to the Windows series?

ZUN: It's the same world. There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon.

This is ZUN stating that the PC-98 Era is the same as the Windows era.

"So what does this mean?"

Well if it is accepted, then we might expect to see 4-A to Low 2-C Touhou Characters, That being Shiniki having created Makai which in stated to be infinite in the Windows Cannon and Multi-Solar System in the PC-98 version.

Isn't this interesting? I'd like to hear some opinions on this?

 

[Promestein]

Maybe mention what you're talking about specifically in the title?

PC-98 Touhou and Windows Touhou are filled with contradictions and the scale of power displayed is one of them, and that statement itself also says that the Windows canon should still be taken as more canon than the PC-98 canon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We know this already.

While it may be considered "canon", the Windows stuff keeps overwriting and retconning the PC-98 stuff. So it's better to treat the two as separate, otherwise, it would be messy.

Also 1. Shinki's feat isn't Low 2-C anymore 2. Anyone on Reimu's level being 4-A would be a huge outlier.

 

[Udlmaster]

Not so much an outlier as it is due to the spellcard rules. And yes, while there are some contridictions, there's many in any fiction, might I draw attention to Dispo's "He's faster than light" while using his secret technique?

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, in the Widow's version, Makai is infinite in Size, I adressed this in the post, in the PC-98 version, it's Multi-Solar System to Galaxy level in size.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, (Again) I 100% agree with the Window's version being the cannon over the 98 version, however, there is no set Power for either, only what we think is their current power.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Spell Card Rule canonically did not exist before EoSD. Unless Mystic Square went on after EoSD (Which is contradicted by pretty much everything), then the Spell Card Rules wasn't active back then.

False comparison. If one canon tells you a character was a normal human who took up magic as a hobby and then moved from her parent's house into the woods, and another tells you this same human was the underling of an evil spirit and only became "normal" upon being defeated alongside her master, I think this is a sign that the two canons aren't the same.

 

[Udlmaster]

No, no, I mean the Reimu being 4-A for pre-Windows, I wasn't sure what you went, and the only 4-A Reimu I remember was 98 version.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you're planning to fuse the two canons then you logically cannot have Reimu and Co. have keys that separate the two. Which means everyone who's currently High 4-C becomes on the level of the Lunarians. Which makes no sense (Though arguably, Shinki's 4-A is far lower than Doremy's)

 

[Udlmaster]

Well there is some speculation that could make some of the Highest Tiers of Gensokyo like Yukari who had attacked the Lunar Capital twice, knowing what would have happened and it is speculated that Yukari is a lot more powerful then she shows, such as her possibily being comparable to the Guard Captains of the Lunar Capital, her joking about their power. For someone as Smart as Yukari to fight and attack the Lunar Capital Twice, no less, doesn't really make sense, on top of that, she was also able to enter the domain of the Lunar Capital and get Suika into the Lunar Capital to get Sake. And as we have seen, when someone enters a certain area, like the Lunar Capital, where people of a certain power must be to be there, they must atleast be comparable, such as Comsic Armour Superman being 1-B for entering the Source wall(I think that's what it's called) and ZUN's quote saying that: The Guard Captains are above everyone in Gensokyo, would make sense and wouldn't affect Yukari being comparable, since Yukari, Ran and Sometimes Chen, aren't in Gensokyo, their in Yukari's Gap Space, in the Netherworld or elsewhere, rarely in Gensokyo and only there when she's up to something or wants to mess with people (Or talk with Reimu.) and besides that, she's sleeping.

 

[Promestein]

You're not making sense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yukari herself has stated that she'd get bodied by the Lunarians in a direct fight, several times too.

Arguing that Yukari was "only lying" or whatever is just denial at this point.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, there's some speculation that Yukari is comparable to the Guard Captains of the Lunar Capital, whom are "At least 4-A"

The Quote where ZUN says the Guard Captains are above everyone in Gensokyo wouldn't apply to Yukari as Yukari isn't in Gensokyo, she's in her Gap Space, in the Netherworld with Yuyuko or sleeping. As Reimu herself states, it's rare for Youkai like Yukari to be around .

Additionally, Yukari was actually able to enter the Lunar Capital where "The most Noble and Highest Gods live." And Yukari was able to get Suika in the Lunar Capital where she got 1000 year old Sake. And like with Characters like "Cosmic Armour Superman" who entered the Monitor Sphere and to Quote the page itself: " Likely an Infinite-Dimensional being, as the Monitor-Sphere is the highest dimension of creation / the multiverse, which has bee repeatedly writte as a Infinite-Dimensional structure)" and that was because he entered that place, meaning that if someone goes into a place of power, they should be comparable, like Thought Robot.

This does mean that Youkai who are not in Gensokyo, like Youmu, Yuyuka, Eiki Shiki and many more, should possibly be comparable to the Sisters, as Yukari, who is comparable to people like Eiki Shiki, was able to enter the Lunar Capital and able to sneak people in there without the Lunar Capitals knowledge.

 

[Udlmaster]

Comparable not equal.

 

[Promestein]

People who aren't strong can be in the Lunar Capital. Yukari isn't gonna get erased there if she's not strong enough. There's a difference between being on the Moon and being in a higher-dimensional space. Living in the Lunar Capital is just as much a sign of status.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

>Completely ignore my message and continuing to argue about "Yukari is not from Gensokyo!!" (Which is false, as it's her main dwelling place and she is consistently considered part of it)

Okay then.

Also as Prom said, sneaking into someone's house =/= comparable.

 

[Udlmaster]

However, aren't many of the people from the moon considered "Atleast 4-A" for being in the Lunar Capital?

Such as: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mizue_no_Uranoshimako

 

[Promestein]

Because Lunarian gods are superior, not because they live in the Lunar Capital, but because they scale to Sagume and other Lunar Capital officials.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He's a god. Fellow gods are superior to Doremy, who's casually Tier 4.

Also Gods seems to be generally superior to the Watatsukis, who are also Tier 4.

 

[Udlmaster]

However, what is the distinction between the Lunar Gods and the Gensokyo/Human Realm Gods?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Status, like said before. The strongest gods are just there, while weaker ones dwells on Earth.

 

[Udlmaster]

However, again, wasn't Yukari able to gain access to the same space as said gods?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And? It literally doesn't matter. If you managed to sneak into a room full of elite soldiers it doesn't make you an elite soldier.

Yukari sneaking into the Lunar Capital doesn't mean anything. At all. A damn crow managed to make it there.

 

[Udlmaster]

Then shouldn't that same logic apply to all pages that say: "Was able to enter X Place" for a reason for them being X Tier?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Did you even listen to what Prom said? Like, at all?

These people are on that tier because said place is higher dimensional. It's a higher plane of existence. The Lunar Capital isn't. It's just a place for high tier gods to lives in.

Also I have no idea why you debate this. Yukari didn't fight Shinki. Reimu & Co did.

 

[Udlmaster]

Anyways, this has kinda been derailed (By myself). But shouldn't there be some sort of reform, as the Auther has said both versions are the same? And since 98 is before the Windows version, it just means that their full power is the current PC-98 Values, and their spellcard values are variable.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He didn't state this. The Windows version takes priority over PC-98 and retcons it. We can't treat as if the PC-98 events truly happened when they're getting constantly retconned by new stuff. It was decided long ago to keep it this way. None of what you say is new.

I have still no idea why you keep debating this. It's an outlier for Reimu & Co and no one would scale to Shinki.

 

[Udlmaster]

Hm, okay then. ^_^

 

[Udlmaster]

I can concede to logic if needs be.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Isn't ZUN simply trying to say that a retcon occurred?

?????

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well he's definitively saying the two are linked. But Windows keeps retconning the PC-98 stuff away. So Windows won't have to follow the PC-98 canon.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Well he's definitively saying the two are linked. But Windows keeps retconning the PC-98 stuff away. So Windows won't have to follow the PC-98 canon.

Mainly the references from Windows Era which relates to PC-98 is almost always canon for both unless ZUN says otherwise in certain cases while everything else is usually separate.

Also, for some petty reason, some Touhou fans pointlessly complain that PC-98 & Windows Era being retconned and heavily disagreeing with it which is one of the reasons why they want it mixed but this also automatically goes against ZUN's wishes.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Not to mention that various fictional verses have retconned continuities & characters for years before Touhou Project even existed and never bothered questioning anything negative about it, like what on Earth is this logic?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm honestly not sure if you're currently trying to debate anything or if you're just complaining.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I'm honestly not sure if you're currently trying to debate anything or if you're just complaining.

Debates are technically supposed to be a mix of both in most cases and I was answering to your previous response earlier and I also wanted to point out something I noticed for a long while.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, I'm sorry to tell you but ZUN himself (The Man, the Myth, The Drunk Legend) stated the two are connected, so trying to argue with the auther isn't going to get anyone anywhere, but we've already had the debate, and the result is that the Tiers are staying to same due to differences in the story and until we get some more solid feats.

The debate is long over, so this part is pretty pointless. Eitherway, we know the two are connected but until ZUN gives us more to see, we're not changing the Profiles, which is acceptable.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Well, I'm sorry to tell you but ZUN himself (The Man, the Myth, The Drunk Legend) stated the two are connected, so trying to argue with the auther isn't going to get anyone anywhere, but we've already had the debate, and the result is that the Tiers are staying to same due to differences in the story and until we get some more solid feats.

The debate is long over, so this part is pretty pointless. Eitherway, we know the two are connected but until ZUN gives us more to see, we're not changing the Profiles, which is acceptable.

You can say that again, some Touhou fans really need to understand, no joke.

Also, someone close this thread for us? Thx.