P2 Naruto AP Upgrade (+Changes to related characters)

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

"Naruto's normal AP is currently rated as Large Mountain level, and the databook states that when using Rasengan Barrage, his power more than doubles (DB4, pg. 307)"

I think this is an argument of physics. Two rasengan landing at the same time with opposing rotations is going to shred far more than a singular rasengan rotating in one direction. It wouldn't make sense for him to gain power by proportionally dividing his chakra twice.

Even if you make this argument, the Rasenshuriken is still superior to this in power so he'd still get at least a 2× buff from the Rasenshuriken.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

"Naruto's normal AP is currently rated as Large Mountain level, and the databook states that when using Rasengan Barrage, his power more than doubles (DB4, pg. 307)"

I think this is an argument of physics. Two rasengan landing at the same time with opposing rotations is going to shred far more than a singular rasengan rotating in one direction. It wouldn't make sense for him to gain power by proportionally dividing his chakra twice.

idt it's dividing, just adding.

 

[Golden_Void]

Even if you make this argument, the Rasenshuriken is still superior to this in power so he'd still get at least a 2× buff from the Rasenshuriken.

I'm saying it makes no sense to say this move doubles power when the context is that it is only more destructive because there are literally two opposing rotations. If anything, its saying the power is doubled simply because there are two rasengan. If that wasn't the case, then the sage art ultra big rasengan barrage he used against Kurama would claim to boost his power by 100 times.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm saying it makes no sense to say this move doubles power when the context is that it is only more destructive because there are literally two opposing rotations. If anything, its saying the power is doubled simply because there are two rasengan. If that wasn't the case, then the sage art ultra big rasengan barrage he used against Kurama would claim to boost his power by 100 times.

Yes, that is the point. 2 Rasengans are twice as strong as a normal Rasengan, moreso when clashing in a certain wat.

Well I mean I don't have a problem with that considering Kurama should be way stronger than SM Naruto normally, but I'm not gonna propose that cause it'll be too controversial.

 

[RanaProGamer]

"Naruto's normal AP is currently rated as Large Mountain level, and the databook states that when using Rasengan Barrage, his power more than doubles (DB4, pg. 307)"

Would increase more than twice mean it could be 3x?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Would increase more than twice mean it could be 3x?

It could, but it could just mean 2.1 or 2.2x or smthn

 

[Golden_Void]

Yes, that is the point. 2 Rasengans are twice as strong as a normal Rasengan, moreso when clashing in a certain wat.

Well I mean I don't have a problem with that considering Kurama should be way stronger than SM Naruto normally, but I'm not gonna propose that cause it'll be too controversial.

No....two rasengans COMBINED are twice as strong as a normal rasengan. Two individual rasengans have the same power as one rasengan. It isn't like he's combining both rasengan into a singular energy point. The opposing rotations just take advantage of physics.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No....two rasengans COMBINED are twice as strong as a normal rasengan. Two individual rasengans have the same power as one rasengan. It isn't like he's combining both rasengan into a singular energy point. The opposing rotations just take advantage of physics.

Ok...I'm still not sure what your point is? Regardless of the method of how the power is amplified, the resulting AP of the attack is more than twice that of a normal Rasengan.

 

[Avengershows]

Ok...I'm still not sure what your point is? Regardless of the method of how the power is amplified, the resulting AP of the attack is more than twice that of a normal Rasengan.

If you use two guns at the same time, you're twice as powerful as someone who is using one gun, but that doesn't mean the individual bullets power is doubled

 

[Shadyboi0]

 

[Nierre]

Yeah I agree with Void/Avenger's reasoning.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If you use two guns at the same time, you're twice as powerful as someone who is using one gun, but that doesn't mean the individual bullets power is doubled

I'm not saying they're individually stronger, just when they're clashing together with inverse rotations.

 

[Golden_Void]

Ok...I'm still not sure what your point is? Regardless of the method of how the power is amplified, the resulting AP of the attack is more than twice that of a normal Rasengan.

I'm saying the physics of two inverse rotations shredding is more powerful than one. Both individual rasengan cost the same amount of energy. By utilizing the physics of inverse rotations, far more damage can be caused. The databook explicitly states it is because rasengan barrage utilizes physics in this way, it is more destructive. It has nothing to do with his AP, rather how his attack is utilized.

If Naruto had ten arms, then by your interpretation of the databook, this would mean his attack is a 20x multiplier. Despite the fact that each individual rasengan is not 20 times stronger, it is whatever the power of a single rasengan is.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm saying the physics of two inverse rotations shredding is more powerful than one. Both individual rasengan cost the same amount of energy. By utilizing the physics of inverse rotations, far more damage can be caused. The databook explicitly states it is because rasengan barrage utilizes physics in this way, it is more destructive. It has nothing to do with his AP, rather how his attack is utilized.

If Naruto had ten arms, then by your interpretation of the databook, this would mean his attack is a 20x multiplier. Despite the fact that each individual rasengan is not 20 times stronger, it is whatever the power of a single rasengan is.

We're just going in circles here. I already agree that each individual Rasengan isn't stronger. But the OVERALL attack is >twice as strong as one Rasengan on its own.

If it really had nothing to do with AP, then the databook would not specify that its "power" is more than doubled.

 

[Golden_Void]

We're just going in circles here. I already agree that each individual Rasengan isn't stronger.

Ok

But the OVERALL attack is >twice as strong as one Rasengan on its own.

The overall attack is literally one rasengan on its own in each hand. Not one with the power of two.

If it really had nothing to do with AP, then the databook would not specify that its "power" is more than doubled.

Writers also don't use our terminology when making their work. Power can just as easily mean destructive capacity in this scenario. The scan says when the spirals with inverse rotations clash, their power doubles. A rough translation from the raw databook says "the inverse rotation of spirals interferes with each other in the center, resulting in more than twice the power of a spiral circle".

So it looks like what I said - the opposing rotations create more damage than a singular rasengan's rotation (duh). But to slap a multiplier on the move simply because he's using a baseline attack more than once is weird. Are we gonna start stacking multipliers on every character that can use multiple attacks at the same time now?

Well I mean I don't have a problem with that considering Kurama should be way stronger than SM Naruto normally, but I'm not gonna propose that cause it'll be too controversial.

Back to what we were saying about his rasengan barrage spam against Kurama, if we go this route we are essentially giving Naruto the space to have an astronomical multiplier which is basically just limited by the size of his chakra reserves.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ok

The overall attack is literally one rasengan on its own in each hand. Not one with the power of two.

Writers also don't use our terminology when making their work. Power can just as easily mean destructive capacity in this scenario. The scan says when the spirals with inverse rotations clash, their power doubles. A rough translation from the raw databook says "the inverse rotation of spirals interferes with each other in the center, resulting in more than twice the power of a spiral circle".

If anything that supports it even more. "Resulting in more than twice the power of a Rasengan." Idk how you can look at that and not say it's a multiplier.

So it looks like what I said - the opposing rotations create more damage than a singular rasengan's rotation (duh). But to slap a multiplier on the move simply because he's using a baseline attack more than once is weird. Are we gonna start stacking multipliers on every character that can use multiple attacks at the same time now?

Back to what we were saying about his rasengan barrage spam against Kurama, if we go this route we are essentially giving Naruto the space to have an astronomical multiplier which is basically just limited by the size of his chakra reserves.

No, the reason isn't that he's using the attack more than once, it's because of the statement. And I think that's debatable, but I'm not arguing that atm.

 

[Golden_Void]

If anything that supports it even more. "Resulting in more than twice the power of a Rasengan." Idk how you can look at that and not say it's a multiplier.

Ok, so. Let's look at massive rasengan barrage. Literally the same exact jutsu as rasengan barrage, except he uses one rasengan that is way bigger than his entire body. By the definition of what a standard rasengan barrage is, and also going by your words of using the statement, massive rasengan barrage can't possibly have a multiplier. Naruto cannot use two rasengan at the same time with that move, and so the context which validated the first statement (inverse rotations increasing the power) does not apply here.

Also by using massive rasengan barrage, which is again, literally the same exact move but with one giant rasengan, the idea of a multiplier on a simple jutsu just because the statement alludes to that is invalidated. Rasengan barrage is literally just that - a barrage of rasengan. A bombardment of rasengan. The proposed multiplier of the parent jutsu doesn't work on the child jutsu because the premise is flawed to begin with. The normal jutsu has its destructive power, not energy potency, increased due to the inverse rotations creating more shear force.

In no other rasengan variant on the page is there a mention of a multiplier, just mentions of vague power increases. And that rasengan barrage is the most mundane variation out of all the present forms on the page.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ok, so. Let's look at massive rasengan barrage. Literally the same exact jutsu as rasengan barrage, except he uses one rasengan that is way bigger than his entire body. By the definition of what a standard rasengan barrage is, and also going by your words of using the statement, massive rasengan barrage can't possibly have a multiplier. Naruto cannot use two rasengan at the same time with that move, and so the context which validated the first statement (inverse rotations increasing the power) does not apply here.

Um...no, all of them are way bigger than his body.

I mean he is literally using many Rasengans at the same time, just with clones rather than one Naruto carrying them.

Also by using massive rasengan barrage, which is again, literally the same exact move but with one giant rasengan, the idea of a multiplier on a simple jutsu just because the statement alludes to that is invalidated. Rasengan barrage is literally just that - a barrage of rasengan. A bombardment of rasengan. The proposed multiplier of the parent jutsu doesn't work on the child jutsu because the premise is flawed to begin with. The normal jutsu has its destructive power, not energy potency, increased due to the inverse rotations creating more shear force.

What do you even mean by destructive power? It's not like Rasengan Barrage is a wide area attack, it's just concentrated on one person.

In no other rasengan variant on the page is there a mention of a multiplier, just mentions of vague power increases. And that rasengan barrage is the most mundane variation out of all the present forms on the page.

So...what you're saying is that because there's no other mention of a multiplier for combined Rasengans, there's no multiplier for Rasengan Barrage? Cause um...That's just a blatant argument from ignorance.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Man, why can I never get a CRT to go smoothly quickly

 

[Golden_Void]

Um...no, all of them are way bigger than his body.

That's basically what I said

I mean he is literally using many Rasengans at the same time, just with clones rather than one Naruto carrying them.

Except he's not simultaneously using multiple rasengan in tandem, which is part of the whole "spirals with inverse rotations clash together" statement.

What do you even mean by destructive power? It's not like Rasengan Barrage is a wide area attack, it's just concentrated on one person.

See my statements about the physics of the move.

So...what you're saying is that because there's no other mention of a multiplier for combined Rasengans, there's no multiplier for Rasengan Barrage? Cause um...That's just a blatant argument from ignorance.

No, I'm saying that massive rasengan barrage and rasengan barrage is the same exact move except with vastly different amounts of chakra, yet functionally, massive rasengan barrage does not behave the way the original jutsu is described. This is because the reasoning of the wording in the original is being misinterpreted.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Man, why can I never get a CRT to go smoothly quickly

This is your gift, your curse

 

[Godernet]

ill take a look at this when i come from work

They give you a break yet Shadow? lol

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's basically what I said

You said only one was larger

Except he's not simultaneously using multiple rasengan in tandem, which is part of the whole "spirals with inverse rotations clash together" statement.

They are hitting at the same time

See my statements about the physics of the move.

Yeah I would, except I'm not a physics guy

No, I'm saying that massive rasengan barrage and rasengan barrage is the same exact move except with vastly different amounts of chakra, yet functionally, massive rasengan barrage does not behave the way the original jutsu is described. This is because the reasoning of the wording in the original is being misinterpreted.

Or maybe if there were 10 Massive Rasengans, it would be 10x the strength of one Massive Rasengan, but because they're not clashing together in opposite directions, it's not MORE than 10x like 2 Rasengans are MORE than twice as strong as one. And perhaps the 10x for 10 Rasengans is just assumed and not written because Kishimoto finds it so obvious it's redundant to state.

They give you a break yet Shadow? lol

 

[Golden_Void]

You said only one was larger

sigh- He makes one large one and so do his clones - they have one a piece.

They are hitting at the same time

Not in the way the original jutsu describes and shows

Yeah I would, except I'm not a physics guy

Inverse rotations together = tearing in between rotations. One rotation = destruction only at the point of rotation.

Or maybe if there were 10 Massive Rasengans, it would be 10x the strength of one Massive Rasengan, but because they're not clashing together in opposite directions, it's not MORE than 10x like 2 Rasengans are MORE than twice as strong as one. And perhaps the 10x for 10 Rasengans is just assumed and not written because Kishimoto finds it so obvious it's redundant to state.

Bruh that's like saying Goku gets a 100x multiplier for spamming standard ki blasts

 

[MinatoSparkle]

sigh- He makes one large one and so do his clones - they have one a piece.

Not in the way the original jutsu describes and shows

Sure, that's why it doesn't get the extra boost

Inverse rotations together = tearing in between rotations. One rotation = destruction only at the point of rotation.

As far as I can tell, there's no extra tearing

Bruh that's like saying Goku gets a 100x multiplier for spamming standard ki blasts

No because those are hitting one after another consecutively, not all at once in sync. But something like Goku, Vegeta, and 17 shooting their ki blasts at Jiren at the same time? That's 3x the strength of them individually.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

Writers also don't use our terminology when making their work. Power can just as easily mean destructive capacity in this scenario. The scan says when the spirals with inverse rotations clash, their power doubles. A rough translation from the raw databook says "the inverse rotation of spirals interferes with each other in the center, resulting in more than twice the power of a spiral circle".

So it looks like what I said - the opposing rotations create more damage than a singular rasengan's rotation (duh). But to slap a multiplier on the move simply because he's using a baseline attack more than once is weird. Are we gonna start stacking multipliers on every character that can use multiple attacks at the same time now?

I think Golden Void makes a fair point here.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think Golden Void makes a fair point here.

I'd say Occam's Razor sides with me on this. The statement quite simply says the power is more than doubled. You CAN go through the linguistic gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion, but standard assumption with "power" being increased would be that it's referring to AP.

Also do u have thoughts on the rest of the CRT?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[Golden_Void]

I'd say Occam's Razor sides with me on this. The statement quite simply says the power is more than doubled. You CAN go through the linguistic gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion, but standard assumption with "power" being increased would be that it's referring to AP.

Also do u have thoughts on the rest of the CRT?

It's not at all gymnastics. Excluding the context that the inverse rotations produced increased damage between the rotations would get you to your conclusion. The statement has a cause and effect. Because the opposing rotations -> damage is increased. If the rotations weren't the main reason, it wouldn't have been mentioned. Which is why it isn't mentioned on massive rasengan barrage either.

Rasengan damages internally as well, her organs probably look like a milkshake (even though shes a corpse)

 

[Eseseso]

I agree.

 

[Stryker861]

It's not at all gymnastics. Excluding the context that the inverse rotations produced increased damage between the rotations would get you to your conclusion. The statement has a cause and effect. Because the opposing rotations -> damage is increased. If the rotations weren't the main reason, it wouldn't have been mentioned. Which is why it isn't mentioned on massive rasengan barrage either.


Rasengan damages internally as well, her organs probably look like a milkshake (even though shes a corpse)

A little off topic but do we accept the regular rasengan as dura neg ?

 

[Golden_Void]

A little off topic but do we accept the regular rasengan as dura neg ?

It would have to be stronger than the skin of the person it works on but if it is then they can get shredded pretty good

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not at all gymnastics. Excluding the context that the inverse rotations produced increased damage between the rotations would get you to your conclusion. The statement has a cause and effect. Because the opposing rotations -> damage is increased. If the rotations weren't the main reason, it wouldn't have been mentioned. Which is why it isn't mentioned on massive rasengan barrage either.

Like I said, inverse rotations are why it's more than doubled, not why it's doubled in the first place.

Rasengan damages internally as well, her organs probably look like a milkshake (even though shes a corpse)

Does it? I've heard people say that but I don't actually remember where that's stated. If you're talking about Kabuto's weird delayed response, it's because he couldn't heal all the damage Rasengan did, his organs are never mentioned. And outside of this one vague scene, I don't believe there's any other implication of Rasengan doing internal damage, and Naruto's hit opponents with it plenty of times.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Like I said, inverse rotations are why it's more than doubled, not why it's doubled in the first place.

Does it? I've heard people say that but I don't actually remember where that's stated. If you're talking about Kabuto's weird delayed response, it's because he couldn't heal all the damage Rasengan did, his organs are never mentioned. And outside of this one vague scene, I don't believe there's any other implication of Rasengan doing internal damage, and Naruto's hit opponents with it plenty of times.

Yeah, if those did dura neg like that then Obito's brain should've been splattered when Naruto slammed his Rasengan into his face.

 

[ssgengar]

I don't believe there's any other implication of Rasengan doing internal damage, and Naruto's hit opponents with it plenty of times.

Wb when naruto hit the water tank? He barely punctured the area he hit but the back end exploded iirc

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Wb when naruto hit the water tank? He barely punctured the area he hit but the back end exploded iirc

Eh, ig that's something but it pierced the water tank to do that. Maybe if the Rasengan gets through someone's skin it'd blow up their insides, but otherwise the extra damage should just be damaging them on the outside.

 

[Golden_Void]

Yeah, if those did dura neg like that then Obito's brain should've been splattered when Naruto slammed his Rasengan into his face.

That would be a case of higher durability, like when Naruto used rasengan on the third Raikage's arm to make him pierce his own skin since rasengan couldn't.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Wrong thread

 

[TFO]

Wrong thread

My bad, lmao! I had clicked on this one earlier and forgot to go back.