Overwatch Downgrade: Part III

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

NOT TODAY!

On a serious note if we get high 8c overwatch I may have some pleiades matches to do

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SquiTwo/Genji_deflects_Null_Sector_Mech_Energy_Bullet

Gonna repost what I posted on the calc.

"Why is the calc assuming the metal was vaporized, when it so obviously has broken and curled upwards?

What vapor? You mean the smoke from the explosion? Or the smoke coming out of the machine itself? Neither of which are 'vaporized metal'."

Honestly, I swear every time I see smoke near a feat someone wants to yell 'Vaporization! They vaporized the ground/body/metal!". What happened to our standards on feats like that?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Well DMUA has pulled back his support so oof on that one...

 

[CNBA3]

Genji's blade was heated up as well which is a strong indicator as well to be vaporization

 

[ByAsura]

There's a way to do a recalc based on the temperature of that metal. It was most definitely melted or fragmented, though. Also, I'm fairly sure steel and aluminium are the safest and most reasonable options, unless this isn't a regular bus.

@CNBA If it's mostly intact, you can't use vaporisation.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Genji's blade was heated up as well which is a strong indicator as well to be vaporizatio

I'm not entirely sure how his blade turning slightly red from heat indicates that the metal from mech vaporized, as it's from a completely different piece of metal dozens of meters away and it's something that metal can do without heating to the boiling point of steel/titanium.

If you look at a close-up of the feat, you can notice that the metal has cracked and curled off to the sides from a strong explosive heat, while the edges of those curled areas aren't even red-hot when tracer jumps in, despite the metal right next to it supposedly spontaneously vaporizing/melting only seconds beforehand.

 

[CNBA3]

The entire blade was heated red, by basic physics, it is a transfer of energy from one source to another where it absorbed the radiating energy to vibrate the molecules that causes the blade to glow red (blackbody radiation), even heat can cause things to move with enough energy and with force applied, doesn't mean it isn't an act of vaporization as long as it shows signs of it. I looked at the feat again, you can see the glowing heat from the edges of the damage done

 

[Wokistan]

Melting is also still heat though

 

[The_Calaca]

Nothing outside of a Red blade supports vaporization tho.

 

[CNBA3]

The significant lack of debris or just burns away, smoke, steam and radiating heat from the affected areas would support this too, though the explosion would cause some debris with high temperatures.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Melting is still heat, just to a lesser extent than vaporization.

 

[CNBA3]

Well, I mean, there is no sign of melting or liquefaction.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, it sounds like violent fragmentation at best. Which would still be a good 9-A feat.

 

[CNBA3]

What about it being minuscule incinerated sparks that flicker out?

 

[CNBA3]

Also there was a blog a while back where Taka and Antvasima agreed that there can be tiny specks of debris, even at the edges of the areas of effect and still be considered vaporization if it strongly supports it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What about it being minuscule incinerated sparks that flicker out?

That happens when you regularly cut/blast through metal. Even when you melt through metal, actually.

Also there was a blog a while back where Taka and Antvasima agreed that there can be tiny specks of debris, even at the edges of the areas of effect and still be considered vaporization if it strongly supports it.

I'd need more context on that feat, but if the only thing that 'supported' vaporization was something that happens to metal normally when it's sheared/blasted apart then that calc probably needs to be updated as well.

Although this is an entirely different feat with entirely different context, so there really isn't any precedent to go off of.

(EDIT): Even if we assumed whatever missing metal was vaporized and not fragmented/turned to slag, the calc vastly overestimates the volume of metal broken due to the fact that much of the volume measured didn't crack off, but rather bended off to the side.

 

[CNBA3]

Also there appears to be smoke or steam, which came off of The areas of effect with the heated parts, though it was brief, it was still there. Even on the blade, the surface of the railgun, even burn marks around the hole made from the attack

And there was no fire inside the machine so there was no internal damage, when you look closely, the smoke is from the edges, including some smelting kind of appearance as a piece of metal is bent inward and is smooth.

even explosions have heat behind it.

EDIT: Also the second video says that you wouldn't want to go too fast or slow to make a clean cut through, not what happened here.

Even then, we would have to take into account the hollowness of the volume

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also there appears to be smoke or steam, which came off of The areas of effect with the heated parts, though it was brief, it was still there. Even on the blade, the surface of the railgun, even burn marks around the hole made from the attack

There also happened to be a large explosion that caused said warping of the metal, which released a large amount of smoke.

Or the fact that it impacted with machinery that could have also been explosive.

Not every vapor that comes off an explosion is gaseous metal, in fact, the only explosions that produce vaporous metal from heat alone are the nuclear sort EDIT: And even the, the metal doesn't just stick around like smoke, it near-instantly solidifies as the air around it is monumentally cooler. The 'gaseous metal' supposedly coming off the robot wouldn't, in any conceivable way, stick around like that, so I fail to see why we can't just determine it's the smoke from the explosion a few seconds earlier.

And there was no fire inside the machine so there was no internal damage, when you look closely, the smoke is from the edges, including some smelting kind of appearance as a piece of metal is bent inward and is smooth.

Or uh, maybe it's residual smoke from the explosion that happened a short time before Tracer jumped in, in the same exact location?

Another reminder that explosions produce smoke.

even explosions have heat behind it.

Okay, and?

EDIT: Also the second video says that you wouldn't want to go too fast or slow to make a clean cut through, not what happened here.

Even then, we would have to take into account the hollowness of the volume

I have no idea how this relates to the feat, or how it supports vaporization of the metal.

You should also probably take into account the metal that wasn't even shattered/melted/vaporized/whatever and was just bent off to the side, instead of stipulating that more metal was shattered/melted/vaporized/whatever than there actually was.

 

[CNBA3]

There was vapor that even came off of said rail gun that was not even an explosion, much like with what happened with the hole in the mech's chest, it would make sense if there was some sort of fire, but there is none at that point, if not, it would be the metal that has some sort of residual steam or vapor from the heated parts. The smoke was rather clear anyway. Have you considered that the bending was the result of the heat that was from the energy bullet that caused it to warp? Like you said?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

There was vapor that even came off of said rail gun that was not even an explosion, much like with what happened with the hole in the mech's chest, it would make sense if there was some sort of fire, but there is none at that point, if not, it would be the metal that has some sort of residual steam or vapor from the heated parts. The smoke was rather clear anyway.

'What happened with the hole in the mech's chest' was an explosion, and it's perfectly feasible for there to have been an explosion/release of smoke from the Omnic itself, much like any other form of damaged machinery.

Do I need to go into how vaporous metal wouldn't linger around like that, again? Or act like regular smoke in general? Perhaps, since it looks like smoke, comes from an explosion, acts like smoke, and had perfectly reasonable sources to come from, it's actually smoke, and not some far-fetched 'vaporous metal' that would require more energy to vaporize in that time than what you'd actually get from calculating the explosion?

None of what you're saying is actually 'evidence' for metal being vaporized in such quantities. It's some kind of attempt to take the aftereffects of a mundane explosion and spin it as something that produces higher energy values.

 

[CNBA3]

But there is no sign of any fire burning inside the Omnic that would keep the smoke alive. Smoke would just leave dust, even from pov inside the Omnic, the smoke did not blot out the light from the opening like actual smoke does. Also Tracer did not cough like smoke would do to any sort of human being in that type of scenario. And metal appears melted in some places, they are relative to each other as to how the damage is done, yet there was no explosion on the railgun and yet it has vapor produced from it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But there is no sign of any fire burning inside the Omnic that would keep the smoke alive.

Explosive detonations produce smoke. That much smoke doesn't, in the span of less than a minute, just vanish. A lot of it does, too, it's just that Tracer hops in right at the location of the detionation.

Or, uh, just that metals actually burn in of themself when exposed to extreme heat, which also produces bright sparks and smoke. It's actually a lot of the reason smoke comes off of superheated metals, they actually do combust. Very obvious for more reactive metals like Alkali groups, but it happens the same for any other metals that can oxidize.

Here's another example. No vaporization whatsoever.

There's a whole slew of explanations that are infinitely more plausible than "large chunks of the metal got vaporized".

Also Tracer did not cough like smoke would do to any sort of human being in that type of scenario.

Right, because she can breathe gaseous metal just fine; breathing in metals at thousands of Kelvin in temperature higher than the hottest smoke produced naturally on the planet is just a breath of fresh air to her, I bet.

I really don't know what that claim demonstrates beyond it being even less likely that the smoke is gaseous metal.

And metal appears melted in some places, they are relative to each other as to how the damage is done, yet there was no explosion on the railgun and yet it has vapor produced from it.
Yes, extremely small parts of a metal turns to slag when you cut or blast through it.

There seemed to have been just as much of an explosion on the railgun as there was on the chest. Less intense, sure, but still explosive. Fireball and then regular ol' smoke.

 

[CNBA3]

That right there would be qualified enough to for vaporization and taken into account the lack of significant sizable debris to compensate for the missing metal areas that were affected, you were saying that the smoke is like real smoke like from inside the Omnic which there is none, and people cough when they clear out any chemicals that enter the airway, and on big parts as well, there was not real explosion on the railgun though, it was just going right through it, creating vapor from the extremely heated metal

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That right there would be qualified enough to for vaporization and taken into account the lack of significant debris to compensate for the missing metal areas that were affected, you were saying that the smoke is like real smoke like from inside the Omnic which there is none, and people cough when they clear out any chemicals that enter the airway, and on big parts as well, there was not real explosion on the railgun though, it was just going right through it, creating vapor from the extremely heated metal

I feel like you've just stated a summary of your previous post.

Couple extra things, though:

• You can see significant debris coming off the mech here. As well as that debris audibly crashing around it prior to it toppling over.

• Actually calculate the missing areas and the volume of the omnic, accounting for the metal that was bent instead of shattered, then come back, if you want to make that claim. I'm going to spoil in advance that this is nearly impossible to do with the angles you're given in the shot. However, you're making the outrageous claim that the metal on the omnic suddenly vaprorized when there's clearly more reasonable explainations, so I'd like outrageous evidence in return, beyond your personal interpretation of the event.

• People also cough when they inhale gaseous metal. Although, someone would spontaneously combust/explode in any environment that would have gaseous metal just lingering around like smoke, considering the absurd temperatures needed for it to exist in that state. Perhaps Tracer just held her breath while she was surrounded by completely mundane smoke, from an explosive or combusted metal, or combusted omnic fuel?

• I'm not explaining again how it's monumentally more likely that it's just a regular explosion than it is metal vaporizing. To me, and I hope mostly everyone here, it's abundantly clear that was an explosion, although I'd certainly like to see some substantial evidence on your part that it's vaporization.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dargoo I suggest you not to keep trying. CNBA only thinks his version is acceptable and true and will discuss to hell and back.

You'll only tire yourself.

 

[CNBA3]

• That debris came after the explosion, it likely fell off from being loose and the sudden movement, besides, that is not the same amount of mass that would fill the hole back up. Also, there was no audible sound from debris, just the mech crashing into the building. Also, if there was explosive debris, why did we not see any inside the hole, it would be an obvious factor if it was to just rupture the robot on it's insides as well, but there was none.
• I already agree with the previous calc, so I would go with that.
• Tracer had her mouth open the entire time. The smoke would likely be just the cooling of the melted metal since it did not take that long to cool. Plus we have seen tracer cough in other cinematics, this is not the same, also this is cooled metal, not radiating heated metal.
• even people can use comprehensive destruction for various explosions, but in this case, you can't really calc that explosion as there was no blast radius like D.Va's Mech does

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Dargoo makes sense. We probably need to use another calculation.

 

[CNBA3]

I did a quick calc of the specific heat for Steel and Titanium and applied it to the affected area and it comes up to between .028 and 9.649e-3 Tons of TNT.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not really debating the matter more, since the same points are being rehashed, and I'm running out of creative ways and evidence-based examples to illustrate what I'm talking about after having explained myself four-five times over. I'm seeing nothing new from CNBA besides them restating their opinion on what happened, so I don't feel obligated to continue giving evidence when I'm receiving none in return.

• The previous calc's volume is incorrect, I've already explained above what it did wrong and didn't account for.

• The metal didn't vaporize. The smoke present was either from the metal itself burning, or the explosion that occured less than a minute previous.

• Breathing gaseous metal is more dangerous than breathing smoke, and gaseous metal can't exist at temperatures where the human body doesn't just explode from heat.

I think fragmentation is the safest bet for the volume of steel that wasn't bended/warped outwards, and that any application of vaporization values isn't supported in the slightest.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if Dargoo's suggestion is applied.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

We still have some other feats that need to be calced but im neutral on the recalc, whatever it comes out to is fine

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Leaning on dragoos stance as well. (Though I really would like 8-c overwatch)

 

[CNBA3]

heat can cause things to bend too as it causes vibrations in the matter and becomes less sturdy and there is showings of it being melted or incinerated.

But the metal was mostly cooled down and it is just small steam remaining from the edges, and if there was on gas inside the robot, it would be obvious since Tracer was not affected by something that isn't there, especially with her time rewinding getting rid of any possible negative effects, that and the metal burning would still produce some steam.

also, at such speeds, if it was fragment, there is no way that bullet (if assumed solid) would cause things to be super heated or melt things at that speed (225 m/s).

 

[Schwxnz]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if Dargoo's suggestion is applied.

^

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I can try re-doing the calc myself, although I don't think we can get too much of a solid answer due to how much of the metal bended/warped outwards as opposed to outright shattering.

 

[CNBA3]

And take into consideration the heat that came from the damaged area and lack of debris

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Seeing as Genji reflecting the attack caused his sword to immediately glow red hot its safe to say that there would be at least SOME vaporization

 

[CNBA3]

And the affected areas