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One Piece Top Tiers and God Tiers Revision

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I think he's referring to this:

 
Holy **** y'all need everything spelled out for you. You talk about how it is seperate from his physicals because apparently we need a statement for telekinesis basically scaling to A.P. Or how about how it doesn't fit the stabilization standards? This isn't a ******* stabilization feat. This is Potential Energy done through a special ability that apparently needs to be said to scale to physical a.p because "muh site standard". You use Haki which is sperate from DFs and actually nulls them getting stronger as evidence against scaling to A.P. Or that his drinking making him stronger and yet still the island is falling means that its a separate thing. However the flame clouds are shown feeding off Kaidou's stamina and not his a.p. We are not talking about the energy to keep it in the sky, at least I'm not. We are talking about generating the energy to move it forward, or to pull it up. You are being disingenuous and you know it damn well.
And if that still isn't enough here:
image.png
 
We’ve literally addressed the points made in that message bro, we just didn’t respond specifically to your spoilered message…
 
"You use Haki which is sperate from DFs and actually nulls them getting stronger as evidence against scaling to A.P. Or that his drinking making him stronger and yet still the island is falling means that its a separate thing. However the flame clouds are shown feeding off Kaidou's stamina and not his a.p."
 
"You use Haki which is sperate from DFs and actually nulls them getting stronger as evidence against scaling to A.P. Or that his drinking making him stronger and yet still the island is falling means that its a separate thing. However the flame clouds are shown feeding off Kaidou's stamina and not his a.p."
Take away the Haki point and his drinking, and the point still remains that there is nothing connecting his Flame Clouds with the rest of his AP.
 
What happened to aokiji's calculation? Also I find it strange that kaido took the bajrang gun without exploding while he's only country level. There were also cloud splitting calculations that were continent level, where did they go?
 
That's it then. You just need it spelled out?
I need more than assumptions.

What happened to aokiji's calculation? Also I find it strange that kaido took the bajrang gun without exploding while he's only country level. There were also cloud splitting calculations that were continent level, where did they go?
There were issues with it so it was withdrawn. The cloud splitting thread didn't reach a conclusion.
 
Moron I really don't think you're understanding. The flame clouds being tied to stamina, telekinesis, whatever, doesn't make them scale to his physicals at all.
 
Moron I really don't think you're understanding. The flame clouds being tied to stamina, telekinesis, whatever, doesn't make them scale to his physicals at all.
The only point you guys have is that its just an assumption. But your also making an assumption that seems a lot less reasonable.
 
The only point you guys have is that its just an assumption. But your also making an assumption that seems a lot less reasonable.
It's literally not unreasonable, it's adhering to our site standards. You're the one who cannot see that. I'm not really going to repeat myself ad nauseam with you. So, I'm just going to wait for other people to comment on this thread, since we're going in circles with you complaining and us explaining.
 
It's literally not unreasonable, it's adhering to our site standards. You're the one who cannot see that. I'm not really going to repeat myself ad nauseam with you. So, I'm just going to wait for other people to comment on this thread, since we're going in circles with you complaining and us explaining.
I already debunked the majority of points.
 
🤦‍♂️ he didn't concede on the stamina stuff moron. The haki stuff maybe, but conceding the haki stuff doesn't serve as a defeater to the argument, it was one small point in a myriad of other points.
 
Damage seemingly conceded, the haki and stamina stuff.
No, the Haki stuff was just to point out that Kaido's AP continues to ramp up throughout the fight even as his stamina lessens.

The stamina stuff for the cloud lifting I haven't conceded on at all. The point being still that just because the clouds are sustained via his stamina/life-force or whatever, doesn't prove there is any link to his physical statistics.
 
We aren’t claiming stamina and physicals have no links either. However, you need more than that obvious fact to scale to sustainability feats

How does this work?
What is above an obvious fact?

I see the problem, it's not that you are being reasonable and using common sense, it's that you are being guided by directly false standards that go against reality.

Since you yourself have admitted that the fact that physical strength is related to stamina is something obvious, which needs no proof (an axiom)

But well there is nothing to do, the problem is not the feat, the problem is that the standards are wrong, so nothing to do here i guess.
 
Can we get some staff in here? I know we still have like a day to go before grace ends but still.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus has told me to add him to the Agree pile as he's currently busy with work.
Can you post proof of that just so people don’t think there’s any dishonesty going around, I believe you ofc but it’s prolly best to cover the bases.


How does this work?
What is above an obvious fact?

I see the problem, it's not that you are being reasonable and using common sense, it's that you are being guided by directly false standards that go against reality.

Since you yourself have admitted that the fact that physical strength is related to stamina is something obvious, which needs no proof (an axiom)

But well there is nothing to do, the problem is not the feat, the problem is that the standards are wrong, so nothing to do here i guess.
you can make a thread addressing the stability standards if you’d like
 
Luffy claims that Kaido’s Haki has gotten stronger after getting blasted by one of Kaido’s attacks. Haki is an ability that directly influences a character’s AP, as Kaido uses his Haki to amp his techniques. Kaido even claims mid-fight that his drinking doesn’t make him weaker, implying it’s more of an amp. We also see throughout the fight that Kaido’ s AP isn’t decreasing as he continues to use stronger and stronger attacks, and manages to keep up with Luffy all while Luffy is getting stronger and stronger.
I have already proved this doesn't disprove anything.
What is most likely sustaining these clouds is Kaido’s life force/stamina. When Yamato makes the claim that his power is weakening, we see that Kaido is injured, covered in blood and bruises. As the fight continues and Kaido gets more injured and closer to death, we see the flame clouds become less and less stable. Yamato and Momo even imply that if Kaido dies, the clouds will disappear. All the way up until his defeat by Luffy where he is incapacitated or maybe even killed, when his flame clouds finally give way and Momo has to use his own flame clouds to stop Onigashima’s fall. This rather concretely displays that Kaido is sustaining the clouds with his own life force/stamina rather than his raw AP power, because we see Kaido’s AP stays the same or even gets stronger throughout the fight, but his HP (for a lack of better terms) is constantly decreasing as he sustains injury after injury. Thus, Kaido sustains the clouds with his life force/stamina.
Onigashima seems to have stabilized when Kaidou amps his DF as opposed to Drinking and haki which are seperate avenues.
Kaido’s regular statistics and AP don’t necessarily consistently scale to the energy provided by the flame cloud calcs (High 6-B). Kaido has scaling to Whitebeard’s calcs which are 6-B and his strongest attack is able to briefly contest Luffy’s strongest attack which is High 6-A. However, he doesn’t have any other avenues to High 6-B. I won’t claim that High 6-B is inconsistent for Kaido, since 6-B isn’t exactly far from High 6-B, they’re adjacent tiers. So, I believe that Kaido can debatably satisfy this requirement, but he arguably cannot as well.
Apparently an important scene, and scaling to casual H6B feats isn't enough.
  • The character's regular statistics aren't consistently portrayed at the level of what they sustain.
They are never ever shown to be remotely below what his base form did. Oda did not portray Destroyer of Death Thunder Bagua as below his clouds.
You have nothing.
 
I have already proved this doesn't disprove anything.
No you haven’t, because Kaido’s haki not weakening is being used to argue Kaido himself isn’t getting weaker in terms of AP. As in bro is still punching at usual levels. It’s not saying that the cloud shit is connected to haki.

Onigashima seems to have stabilized when Kaidou amps his DF as opposed to Drinking and haki which are seperate avenues.
yeah we already know the flame clouds are connected to his DF.

Apparently an important scene, and scaling to casual H6B feats isn't enough.
Bro it doesn’t matter how casual or not the flame clouds are, they can be a casual LIFTING STRENGTH feat and still not scale to striking strength. Get that through your head.

They are never ever shown to be remotely below what his base form did. Oda did not portray Destroyer of Death Thunder Bagua as below his clouds.
You have nothing.
You misunderstand that point. Consistent showings mean he needs to have consistent feats of his AP/striking strength being High 6-B. He is only consistently High 6-B with the clouds, bro has zero other feats of anything being High 6-B.
 
No you haven’t, because Kaido’s haki not weakening is being used to argue Kaido himself isn’t getting weaker in terms of AP. As in bro is still punching at usual levels. It’s not saying that the cloud shit is connected to haki.
I'm saying that Kaidou amping his physical AP and haki does not mean he is amping the clouds or his DF powers which is where the A.P comes from.
yeah we already know the flame clouds are connected to his DF.
So him still being amped and the flame clouds not stabilizing makes sense. Because his haki buffing isn't connect at all to DF.
Bro it doesn’t matter how casual or not the flame clouds are, they can be a casual LIFTING STRENGTH feat and still not scale to striking strength. Get that through your head.
I'm talking about Whitebeard's feats🗿
You misunderstand that point. Consistent showings mean he needs to have consistent feats of his AP/striking strength being High 6-B. He is only consistently High 6-B with the clouds, bro has zero other feats of anything being High 6-B.
Because apparently holding back a High 6-A attack for a significant period of time, and scaling to a man who's getting angry resulted in a 6-B feat isn't enough to get into High 6-B(which is barely above 6-B)
 
Lmao, so base Luffy scales to Gear 5 cuz it’s his Devil fruit power huh? Doffy’s physicals scale to his bird cage too then huh? There are instances in One Piece where characters use their Devil fruits to produce abilities or attacks beyond their normal physicals, you’re just wrong here. This isn’t a defeater either moron.
Why do u keep calling him a moron? 😭

EDIT: I can’t believe I didn’t notice it. I’m a ******* moron myself huh
 
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Also we have Mother Flame which is calc to be 5-A/Large Planet level and Sabo survived it meaning Sabo should have dwarf star level durability and God Tier scale above him
 
Sabo didn't get hit by the Mother Flame damn

Also how the hell do you gain dwarf star durability from getting hit from a portion of a large planet attack what the hell
She’s literally the smartest person alive.


I'm saying that Kaidou amping his physical AP and haki does not mean he is amping the clouds or his DF powers which is where the A.P comes from.
No one said he’s amping the clouds, read the stability standards and you’d understand better.

So him still being amped and the flame clouds not stabilizing makes sense. Because his haki buffing isn't connect at all to DF.
ok? Not relevant to what we’re talking about.

I'm talking about Whitebeard's feats🗿
They’re like 10 teratons, that’s not consistent for 100s of teratons.

Because apparently holding back a High 6-A attack for a significant period of time, and scaling to a man who's getting angry resulted in a 6-B feat isn't enough to get into High 6-B(which is barely above 6-B)
Kaido scales to High 6-A with his flame susanoo
 
What about Puncture Will and it hole's calc?
Im really sure found it somewhere in this site
We can take advantages from that, right?
 
This constant back and forth is useless.

The pro side will continually say that Kaido should have relative AP to his the flame cloud's LS because it comes from his devil fruit and is considered to be a "baseline" ability for him, which means most, if not all abilities granted by said fruit should, at least, produce a relative level of energy to that ability. Especially more AP focused attacks rather than LS. We seemingly don't have any evidence of this being inherently the case however, as the arguments provided have been based on presumptions about how devil fruits internally scale. Not actual statements of fact. So it's just up to interpretation as to how you believe the devil fruits work in this case.

While the negative side will continually disagree with the assumptions made and will ask the pro side for further evidence and clarification, which will never be provided since the pro side aren't working on direct statements of fact, but rather presuppositions and interpretations of supplemental evidential points.

This will continue on until ad nauseam.

If we wish to address these concerns we have to delve into the fundamental assumptions made by both sides, and argue why our assumptions are supported more compared to the opposition. So the debate about Haki or if DF's are enhanced by the user getting stronger is not needed. Let's stick to this discussion because this will actually address the issue at hand, not delving into in-important topics like those stated above.
 
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