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One Piece Top Tiers and God Tiers Revision

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That_moron said:
We have no reason to believe that a 10ish times amp is applicable to Flame Clouds which isn't even an offensive technique.
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I don’t need to prove any kind of gap that’s produced from fan calcs. The calcs simply produce that gap, YOU have to prove the clouds scale to physicals. Furthermore, the OP provided an overwhelming preponderance of evidence for why the flame clouds don’t scale to AP, while adhering to site standards. None of which you can claim to have done.
 
It just doesn't make sense to me how the ******* flame clouds are stronger than Kaidou's physicals. Apparently because no proof they do but they are never portrayed as anything but equivalent to Kaidou physically. Kaidou lifts Onigashima while drinking and sitting down, but when he is actually putting in effort to fighting he apparently is producing less than half of the energy than the clouds?
 
That_moron said:
It just doesn't make sense to me how the ******* flame clouds are stronger than Kaidou's physicals. Apparently because no proof they do but they are never portrayed as anything but equivalent to Kaidou physically. Kaidou lifts Onigashima while drinking and sitting down, but when he is actually putting in effort to fighting he apparently is producing less than half of the energy than the clouds?
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Yep, pretty much. They have nothing to do with his physicals.
 
That_moron said:
It just doesn't make sense to me how the ******* flame clouds are stronger than Kaidou's physicals. Apparently because no proof they do but they are never portrayed as anything but equivalent to Kaidou physically. Kaidou lifts Onigashima while drinking and sitting down, but when he is actually putting in effort to fighting he apparently is producing less than half of the energy than the clouds?
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This here is called an argument from incredulity. You lack a fundamental understanding of how this situation works rn. You need to prove they scale to his physicals not the other way around.
 
Holy **** y'all need everything spelled out for you. You talk about how it is seperate from his physicals because apparently we need a statement for telekinesis basically scaling to A.P. Or how about how it doesn't fit the stabilization standards? This isn't a ******* stabilization feat. This is Potential Energy done through a special ability that apparently needs to be said to scale to physical a.p because "muh site standard". You use Haki which is sperate from DFs and actually nulls them getting stronger as evidence against scaling to A.P. Or that his drinking making him stronger and yet still the island is falling means that its a separate thing. However the flame clouds are shown feeding off Kaidou's stamina and not his a.p. We are not talking about the energy to keep it in the sky, at least I'm not. We are talking about generating the energy to move it forward, or to pull it up. You are being disingenuous and you know it damn well.
And if that still isn't enough here:
image.png
 
Eseseso said:
Moron, you're fighting a lost cause here.

Do we need any more staff agreements to institute the changes?
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Mitch and KT are just following right now.

No other staff member has agreed or disagreed with it.

I'm in agreement obviously, but I can't pass a thread by myself.

And 48 hours needs to pass before it can be applied even if someone did agree with it.
 
That_moron said:
I'm really getting tired of people celebrating O.P getting dunked on. Even without reading the arguments presented.
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“I’m really getting tired of people going out of their way to try and wank the verse as much as possible” that complaint goes both ways, claiming your arguments aren’t being comprehended and thus addressed is a cope, because they are being addressed, save that for discord or sumn, no need to clutter this thread I’ll do my best to eliminate any cluttering comments of my own from here on out too
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
“I’m really getting tired of people going out of their way to try and wank the verse as much as possible” that complaint goes both ways, claiming your arguments aren’t being comprehended and thus addressed is a cope, because they are being addressed, save that for discord or sumn, no need to clutter this thread I’ll do my best to eliminate any cluttering comments of my own from here on out too
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Talking about my blog not this. Mfers are really ignoring this and just laser focusing on Tsuru's statement. Also no one has responded to my big ass comment and I kind of like that. I'm tired man.
 
That_moron said:
Holy **** y'all need everything spelled out for you. You talk about how it is seperate from his physicals because apparently we need a statement for telekinesis basically scaling to A.P. Or how about how it doesn't fit the stabilization standards? This isn't a ******* stabilization feat. This is Potential Energy done through a special ability that apparently needs to be said to scale to physical a.p because "muh site standard". You use Haki which is sperate from DFs and actually nulls them getting stronger as evidence against scaling to A.P. Or that his drinking making him stronger and yet still the island is falling means that its a separate thing. However the flame clouds are shown feeding off Kaidou's stamina and not his a.p. We are not talking about the energy to keep it in the sky, at least I'm not. We are talking about generating the energy to move it forward, or to pull it up. You are being disingenuous and you know it damn well.
And if that still isn't enough here:
image.png
Click to expand...
 
Damage3245 said:
Luffy claims that Kaido’s Haki has gotten stronger after getting blasted by one of Kaido’s attacks. Haki is an ability that directly influences a character’s AP,
Click to expand...

There are some flaws in the argument, first of all at no time is it mentioned that what keeps the clouds floating is the haki, therefore that Kaido haki increases, is completely irrelevant.

Haki gives you more AP, but it doesn't do it by increasing your physical strength or anything like that, you still have the same strength, haki is an extra energy addition that gives you more AP.

It is evident that Kaido weakens throughout the fight, it is common sense, he does not have infinite stamina, and the stamina will directly affect the AP via weaken your physicals.

Yes, kaido used his best attack with Luffy at the end of the fight, that does not imply that said attack is more powerful than the same attack of a kaido who is fresh and without his stamina depleted for all the time he has been fighting and getting hurt.

What do I want to get to? The fact that the clouds are related to kaido's stamina, does not mean that they are independent of its stats, it's like when you hold something for a long time, at some point you will get tired and it will fall, because the clouds are related to Kaido's physical capacity therefore they are related to his Ap, And they are not related to his haki, so it is irrelevant if kaido increased his haki, his strength decreased during combat, do you know why? because his stamina also decreased, less stamina less physical strength, which means less AP.

This is exactly what happened with the clouds, because kaido holds it with an ability that is related to his stamina, and therefore logically related to his strength, not his haki.

Kaido scales to his flames without haki, because when he runs out of stamina, and therefore with less strength to maintain the flames, they will fall appart.
 
unworthy said:
The fact that the clouds are related to kaido's stamina, does not mean that they are independent of its stats, it's like when you hold something for a long time, at some point you will get tired and it will fall, because the clouds are related to Kaido's physical capacity therefore they are related to his Ap, And they are not related to his haki, so it is irrelevant if kaido increased his haki, his strength decreased during combat, do you know why? because his stamina also decreased, less stamina less physical strength, which means less AP.
Click to expand...
We aren’t claiming stamina and physicals have no links either. However, you need more than that obvious fact to scale to sustainability feats. The requirements are outlined in our own standards page and in the OP.


unworthy said:
Kaido scales to his flames without haki, because when he runs out of stamina, and therefore with less strength to maintain the flames, they will fall appart.
Click to expand...
That’s inherently false and disallowed by our very own site standards. Being tied to stamina does not grant any inherent scaling to physicals.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
We aren’t claiming stamina and physicals have no links either. However, you need more than that obvious fact to scale to sustainability feats. The requirements are outlined in our own standards page and in the OP.
Click to expand...
Its P.E not sustainability. Its basically telekinesis.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Personally I'd say that a move not meant for attacking would have less Attack Potency than a move meant for attacking, so I'm iffy on dropping the Flame Cloud stuff
Click to expand...
I can totally understand having that perspective, but at the same time that is more or less an Argument from Incredulity as Arc7 pointed out.

Another way I'd look at it is that within One Piece there is no such thing as "Attack Potency" which is a term we made up. The Flame Clouds require X amount of joules to exist and Kaidou expels Y amount of joules with his Boro Breath, but neither of them have anything to do with each other. One is just used for moving things around and the other is used as an attack. The one that's used as an attack doesn't automatically become stronger just because it is deemed an "attack".
 
Damage3245 said:
I can totally understand having that perspective, but at the same time that is more or less an Argument from Incredulity as Arc7 pointed out.

Another way I'd look at it is that within One Piece there is no such thing as "Attack Potency" which is a term we made up. The Flame Clouds require X amount of joules to exist and Kaidou expels Y amount of joules with his Boro Breath, but neither of them having anything to do with each other. One is just used for moving things around and the other is used as an attack. The one that's used as an attack doesn't automatically become stronger just because it is deemed an "attack".
Click to expand...
You are both abusing loopholes and you know it.
 
Damage3245 said:
@That_moron; if you're just going to resort to accusations now then you can get out of my thread and stop derailing.
Click to expand...
Damage, Incredulity is literally your whole counter argument.
Arc7Kuroi said:
He’s literally sustaining the clouds. It can be telekinesis and still sustainability.
Click to expand...
Telekinesis can scale to a.p and not have to go through sustainability last I checked. I'm not ultra familiar with this so I could be wrong.
 
Neat. But I heavily doubt that it was Oda's intention for Kaidou's flame clouds to be stronger than his attacking moves. Apparently there is not enough evidence but I feel that Flame Clouds scaling to a.p is a pretty safe assumption?
 
That_moron said:
Neat. But I heavily doubt that it was Oda's intention for Kaidou's flame clouds to be stronger than his attacking moves. Apparently there is not enough evidence but I feel that Flame Clouds scaling to a.p is a pretty safe assumption?
Click to expand...
You’re just assuming author intention here. None of us are Oda we cannot make that assumption based on the fact “it feels right” or “I think it’s safe”. If it were such an obvious assumption there’d be no need to debate over it, as it’d be presently clearly as such.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
That’s because “I don’t think his flame clouds should scale beneath Boro breath because they aren’t attacks like Boro breath” is textbook incredulity 🗿

If you’re arguing from incredulity moron we’re going to point that out 🗿
Click to expand...
I put out an actual counter argument that no one has responded to.
 
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