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One Piece Speed Upgrade Discussion
- Thread starter The_Calaca
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I'd say: MHS+, possibly Relativistic+.
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- #163
His Vivre Card left out OH and AH actually. The novel is where Armament is confirmed while the Databook only said he had CH.
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He reacted to Kuzan and did the same to BB as Luffy did. I don't see a reason for him not to scale uless Kuzan, Luffy, & BB don't scale
EDIT: We'll if we added Adamant based on a novel instead of databook or manga then I think we can probably add basic OH as long as we're taking liberties anyway. Especially since he should have some level by vritue of getting beat up WB.
EDIT: We'll if we added Adamant based on a novel instead of databook or manga then I think we can probably add basic OH as long as we're taking liberties anyway. Especially since he should have some level by vritue of getting beat up WB.
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- #165
Okay, I'll make the Rel+ edits once I finish with the MHS+ since I need to list every character who would scale first. Hopefully I'll get it done today.
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> EDIT: We'll if we added Adamant based on a novel instead of databook or manga then I think we can probably add basic OH as long as we're taking liberties anyway.
I don't think we should do that. There's a difference between taking liberties and just making stuff up.
I don't think we should do that. There's a difference between taking liberties and just making stuff up.
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I feel like Trafalgar Law should be At least MHS+, possibly Rel+ for keeping pace with Doffy during their skirmish and reacting to Doffy's Five Colored Strings attack.
This might affect those that have shown able to keep up with Law I feel as well like Basil, Wano Zoro etc...
This might affect those that have shown able to keep up with Law I feel as well like Basil, Wano Zoro etc...
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>>I don't think we should do that. There's a difference between taking liberties and just making stuff up.
What part is made up? We know fighting powerful haki users awakens one's own and Ace was thrwarted continually by WB. No its never stated he has OH but the same is true for AH. He also has the feats provided others get similar rating.
but if you feel strongly about it fine. I suppose everyone gets the "at least, possibly" option instead except for Kizaru and Marco.
What part is made up? We know fighting powerful haki users awakens one's own and Ace was thrwarted continually by WB. No its never stated he has OH but the same is true for AH. He also has the feats provided others get similar rating.
but if you feel strongly about it fine. I suppose everyone gets the "at least, possibly" option instead except for Kizaru and Marco.
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- #169
Other people will get Likely or just the rating when there's clear evidence, especially for the Top and God Tiers.
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- #170
I think I've finished the revisions. If you find something dubious or that I missed, please let me know.
With that being said, I'll talk with Cin later about Drake's feat since it's clearly flawed and he had some arguments about it. But we can discuss the scaling for Luffy and Hawkins' feats since that'd upgrade some of the characters to at least MHS+ before the Timeskip.
With that being said, I'll talk with Cin later about Drake's feat since it's clearly flawed and he had some arguments about it. But we can discuss the scaling for Luffy and Hawkins' feats since that'd upgrade some of the characters to at least MHS+ before the Timeskip.
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- #172
Depends on who are we talking about. For example, Kaido has no direct feats but he should be comparable to people like the Admirals while Garp intercepted Marco mid-air.
If there's a reason to change some ratings then we can change them. I updated the profiles based on some old feats and the scaling they have listed in their profiles.
If there's a reason to change some ratings then we can change them. I updated the profiles based on some old feats and the scaling they have listed in their profiles.
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Well, for one, Akainu's speed justification is reacting to Marco's attack, yet he is listed as Likely Rel+. I believe this would also affect Aokiji who fought equally against Akainu for 10 days.
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- Thread starter
- #174
For some reason I forgot about not putting the Likely. That'd scale to Whitebeard as well.
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- #175
For some reason I forgot about not putting the Likely. That'd scale to Whitebeard as well.
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Also I'm noticing a few irregularities checking on the profiles. On WB's it says he dodged/deflected attacks from Akainu and Kizaru. Akainu is somewhat accurate since he avoided the other half of his face, but I don't recall him dodging Kizaru's attacks.
Also BM's profile lists "Possibly" instead of "likely"
Vista and Jozu's profiles are missing the "At least MHS" from their profiles and Luffy's base should have the alternative as well seeing he pressured Issho and somehwat comparable to Duffy plus tagging BB.
Also BM's profile lists "Possibly" instead of "likely"
Vista and Jozu's profiles are missing the "At least MHS" from their profiles and Luffy's base should have the alternative as well seeing he pressured Issho and somehwat comparable to Duffy plus tagging BB.
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Luffy and Doflamingo's profiles also need a slight tweak in the speed rating.
We agreed previously that Doflamingo scales At least MHS+ (above Gear 2nd Luffy, which is correct so far), poss Rel+ (Intercepted Jozu easily, and should not be much slower than Aokiji due to the whole Smoker situation--the boundman thing is circular for what's next).
Boundman Luffy should be Rel+ simply because he outsped Doflamingo and Cracker.
We agreed previously that Doflamingo scales At least MHS+ (above Gear 2nd Luffy, which is correct so far), poss Rel+ (Intercepted Jozu easily, and should not be much slower than Aokiji due to the whole Smoker situation--the boundman thing is circular for what's next).
Boundman Luffy should be Rel+ simply because he outsped Doflamingo and Cracker.
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- #179
Yeah, I forgot about that part. My bad, sorry.
Thank you for fixing that, Cin.
Thank you for fixing that, Cin.
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Luffy's Post Timeskip speed should be somewhat similar to this imo:
At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base, higher with Gear Second (Far faster than his pre-timeskip version), Possibly Relativistic+ with Gear Fourth: Bound-Man (Vanished from Doflamingo's sight and speed blitzed him from hundreds of meters away) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base, higher with Gear Second (Faster than before), Possibly Relativistic+ with Gear 4th variants (Bound-Man is comparable, if not albeit slower than Katakuri. Snake-Man is stated to be faster than Boundman, nearly blitzed Charlotte Katakuri without his pre-cognitive powers. Snakeman's attacks gradually increase in speed the more they missed and stretch)
At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base, higher with Gear Second (Far faster than his pre-timeskip version), Possibly Relativistic+ with Gear Fourth: Bound-Man (Vanished from Doflamingo's sight and speed blitzed him from hundreds of meters away) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base, higher with Gear Second (Faster than before), Possibly Relativistic+ with Gear 4th variants (Bound-Man is comparable, if not albeit slower than Katakuri. Snake-Man is stated to be faster than Boundman, nearly blitzed Charlotte Katakuri without his pre-cognitive powers. Snakeman's attacks gradually increase in speed the more they missed and stretch)
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- #181
Cin's ratings are actually more consistent. Gear 2nd was showed comparable to Doflamingo, so it scaling to Possibly Rel+ is more correct. It's also less cluttered that way.
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Doflamingo did compliment Luffy on his speed (seeing as how he was caught off guard on two occasions, but more consistently while Doffy was weakened. Healthy Doffy wrecked G2 Luffy in speed every time, but both were not far off from each-other anyways).
In terms of speed: Base < G2 =/> Doffy after donating his organs and blood </<< Healthy Doffy < G4 Luffy (kinda inconsistent seeing as how Luffy blitzed from hundreds of meters away yet Doffy managed to keep up moments later and tagged Luffy from the side before Luffy could properly react).
Also, Bound Man is unquestionably faster than Katakuri, who needed to use Kenbunshoku to even properly fight it. Without Kenbunshoku, he was getting thrashed and didn't even have time to put his guard up. He also only landed a solid hit on Luffy after trapping his arm to prevent his mobility.
In terms of speed: Base < G2 =/> Doffy after donating his organs and blood </<< Healthy Doffy < G4 Luffy (kinda inconsistent seeing as how Luffy blitzed from hundreds of meters away yet Doffy managed to keep up moments later and tagged Luffy from the side before Luffy could properly react).
Also, Bound Man is unquestionably faster than Katakuri, who needed to use Kenbunshoku to even properly fight it. Without Kenbunshoku, he was getting thrashed and didn't even have time to put his guard up. He also only landed a solid hit on Luffy after trapping his arm to prevent his mobility.
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> Also, Bound Man is unquestionably faster than Katakuri, who needed to use Kenbunshoku to even properly fight it. Without Kenbunshoku, he was getting thrashed and didn't even have time to put his guard up.
From what I remember Katakuri could put his guard up against Boundman, he was just being overpowered.
And he was able to dodge several of Snakeman's attacks despite Snakeman being faster.
From what I remember Katakuri could put his guard up against Boundman, he was just being overpowered.
And he was able to dodge several of Snakeman's attacks despite Snakeman being faster.
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@Damage - it's all attributed to his OH.
Against Bound Man, yes, he put up a guard, but that was all he could do by the time Luffy had already gotten close to him, and he couldn't react in time before getting hit by Rhino Schneider. He simply wasn't fast enough to keep up and resorted to his OH to turn the tables.
For Snake-man, he dodges the initial punches because he can see them coming (I mean literally, not OH related), but he relied on OH to predict and see where the punches were coming from. There are cases like this where Katakuri ducked his head down, but by the time he completed that action, Culverin made two directional changes and was already closing in, so he had to block because evasion was not an optio. The whole point of this fight was that speed did not matter to Katakuri simply because he could evade the attack before it was even deployed, which is why Luffy needed to use something that could instantly change direction to keep trying until it actually connected.
I guess it really doesn't matter though since both are gonna be in the same speed rating. Just want to clarify that Luffy is DEFINITELY faster with Gear 4th.
Against Bound Man, yes, he put up a guard, but that was all he could do by the time Luffy had already gotten close to him, and he couldn't react in time before getting hit by Rhino Schneider. He simply wasn't fast enough to keep up and resorted to his OH to turn the tables.
For Snake-man, he dodges the initial punches because he can see them coming (I mean literally, not OH related), but he relied on OH to predict and see where the punches were coming from. There are cases like this where Katakuri ducked his head down, but by the time he completed that action, Culverin made two directional changes and was already closing in, so he had to block because evasion was not an optio. The whole point of this fight was that speed did not matter to Katakuri simply because he could evade the attack before it was even deployed, which is why Luffy needed to use something that could instantly change direction to keep trying until it actually connected.
- Take this instance for example. The anime completely misinterpreted what Katakuri was doing (Literally showed him sprinting and flipping through Black Mamba when he was doing twists and twirls here). He used his future sight here in order to dance through the attacks, missing hits by small degrees and pressing forward with the momentum on each turn while Luffy's punches had to travel meters. Katakuri only had to move mere centimeters to ensure they did not hit. Katakuri was using small tight movements and his knowledge of where the punches would go in order to intercept or evade Luffy's punches, but both were no where near as effective against Snake-man as they would be against Bound-man, which is far more direct and not as fast as Snake-man.
I guess it really doesn't matter though since both are gonna be in the same speed rating. Just want to clarify that Luffy is DEFINITELY faster with Gear 4th.
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Also, before anyone mentions how Katakuri (within the same scan I posted) lands a knee on Luffy's face is an attribute that proves his speed being equal, I want you to remember the basics of how momentum works.
Luffy's mid-attack in this case (same with when Doflamingo and Cracker hit him on-panel), and as he is punching, it is difficult to change direction and move out of the way. It's why counter-attacks are so effective in physical combat in general. If an opponent comes swinging with a dedicated punch, they are not going to have the proper positioning or time to redirect their body while the opponent takes one motion to both evade and counter with a side-kick or jab. One can only move in a singular direction at maximum velocity and can not abruptly change direction (which Snake-man counteracts, but only with attacks, as evident since we never see Luffy use propulsion to move his body in any way other than as an accelerator or flight).
Edit:
Luffy's mid-attack in this case (same with when Doflamingo and Cracker hit him on-panel), and as he is punching, it is difficult to change direction and move out of the way. It's why counter-attacks are so effective in physical combat in general. If an opponent comes swinging with a dedicated punch, they are not going to have the proper positioning or time to redirect their body while the opponent takes one motion to both evade and counter with a side-kick or jab. One can only move in a singular direction at maximum velocity and can not abruptly change direction (which Snake-man counteracts, but only with attacks, as evident since we never see Luffy use propulsion to move his body in any way other than as an accelerator or flight).
Edit:
- Doflamingo dodged towards the direction where Luffy is most vulnerable. Luffy goes in with a fully dedicated power strike, and as a result, he has to twist his body to the right to make his left hook have more impact. Doflamingo enters Luffy's range and kicks at his mid section, which would be completely exposed (But logically, Luffy would have the option to try and block with his right arm, but Doflamingo went towards his back with the kick to prevent that from being fully effective). As Luffy just dedicated his entire body to his Culverin, he'd have no time to evade a counter at close range. He'd possibly have time to block, though, since the attack came from the location where his free arm was located.
- Honestly, Doflamingo's better choice would have been dodging left and then Luffy would have had no possible way to block (Assuming Luffy just stopped with the punch and didn't twist with the momentum with a follow up to back-hand Doffy with his right arm), but his only target would be Luffy's back and not his abdomen, which is currently turned right.
- Cracker simply shocked Luffy the first time, and was attacking his extending arm. Speaks for itself. The 2nd time, Luffy is dedicating both arms to a forward assault by the time Cracker leaps in, so he hardly has the time to duck under the lunge.
- Katakuri does the same as Cracker, but strangely enough, Luffy see's him coming, but is still trying to press his attack up until Katakuri knees him in the face.
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Yea I don't have time to read all that text atm but Kata is definetely as fast as Boundman. He reacted to all of his attacks even without FS, except for when he was still a bit dazed and that's a matter of power, not speed.
With FS he was undeniably faster to the point he was dominating Boundman. Snakeman is agreed by all to be faster still compared to Boundman and Katakuri has no problem trading blows with him.
Also Kobster missed gear 3, which should be likely rel+ via BB and Issho.
Put another way:
Snakeman>Katakuri>>Duffy>>Jozu
With FS he was undeniably faster to the point he was dominating Boundman. Snakeman is agreed by all to be faster still compared to Boundman and Katakuri has no problem trading blows with him.
Also Kobster missed gear 3, which should be likely rel+ via BB and Issho.
Put another way:
Snakeman>Katakuri>>Duffy>>Jozu
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@ Dr.Fix - Gear 3rd doesn't increase Luffy's speed, only his AP and striking strength
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@Fix - What is FS?
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I believe he means "Future Sight".
> Also Kobster missed gear 3, which should be likely rel+ via BB and Issho.
What makes Gear 3 Rel+?
> Also Kobster missed gear 3, which should be likely rel+ via BB and Issho.
What makes Gear 3 Rel+?
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@Fix - In regards to Bound-Man vs Katakuri:
Without OH, Katakuri was very clearly screwed in terms of speed (and power but that's irrelevant for this topic), and only kept up when he was using his future sight. Again, when he opens the holes in his body to avoid the attacks, it is a far more effective way to dodge than moving your entire body. He was moving each portion of his body severel+ centimeters before Luffy could travel meters.
If anything, I can only agree with Boundman Luffy being listed as "At least comparable to Katakuri" as I'm still convinced he is faster, but it seems some of you argue the contrary.
Without OH, Katakuri was very clearly screwed in terms of speed (and power but that's irrelevant for this topic), and only kept up when he was using his future sight. Again, when he opens the holes in his body to avoid the attacks, it is a far more effective way to dodge than moving your entire body. He was moving each portion of his body severel+ centimeters before Luffy could travel meters.
- I'm aware that Katakuri caught Luffy with another punch other than the one where he trapped his arm, but Katakuri has a major advantage when he can make the punches come from a source that's not his body (and this was before Luffy developed his Haki, so his OH >> Luffy's at this point).
If anything, I can only agree with Boundman Luffy being listed as "At least comparable to Katakuri" as I'm still convinced he is faster, but it seems some of you argue the contrary.
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Blocking does not mean = in speed. It takes far less movement to put your arms up than moving several meters.
And no. When Luffy was running, he lost Bound-man, and then laid on the ground for a moment before running again. Katakuri was still far away.
And no. When Luffy was running, he lost Bound-man, and then laid on the ground for a moment before running again. Katakuri was still far away.
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>>I can't really agree with Katakuri being > Bound-man (in speed) when he required OH to even defend against the attacks
Blatantly false as I and Damage already pointed out he guarded just fine w/o.
Honestly I'm a bit surprised and how critical you're being here for Katakuri. They're many other examples who don't come close to matching SPD such as Jozu and Vista.
Blatantly false as I and Damage already pointed out he guarded just fine w/o.
Honestly I'm a bit surprised and how critical you're being here for Katakuri. They're many other examples who don't come close to matching SPD such as Jozu and Vista.
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"guarded just fine w/o" - All he had time to do was lift his arms by the time Luffy got close the first two strikes, and he doesn't seem to be accurate the second time. And he couldn't do so after the 2nd punch and barely recovered by the time Rhino Schneider hit him. If Katakuri is indeed faster, he wouldn't have such a struggle and have to sit and try to block.
I admit, my wording was wrong since i noted "he couldn't even defend" but it would be more accurate to say "he couldn't defend properly".
Whatever the case, i guess it doesn't matter in the end. Both will be Rel+ anyways. I just find it strange that some of you want to list Katakuri being faster than Boundman.
I admit, my wording was wrong since i noted "he couldn't even defend" but it would be more accurate to say "he couldn't defend properly".
Whatever the case, i guess it doesn't matter in the end. Both will be Rel+ anyways. I just find it strange that some of you want to list Katakuri being faster than Boundman.
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BUMP, noticed that the Suoernova calcs wasn't applied from what I'm seeing.
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- #197
If everyone is okay with it, I'll apply Hawkins and Luffy's feats to the scaling. Drake's need a bit more work, but the result is MHS+ anyway.
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Since Calaca asked me I'm gonna revive this thread to bring this up
In One Piece novel Law, Law dodges a ray of "Corrosive Light" from the Dero Dero no mi
it's consistently described as being light
Without visuals we can't calc the feat but Law is already possibly relativistic+ scaling to Doffy so I wanted to make sure this could be used as supporting evidence for it.
In One Piece novel Law, Law dodges a ray of "Corrosive Light" from the Dero Dero no mi
it's consistently described as being light
Without visuals we can't calc the feat but Law is already possibly relativistic+ scaling to Doffy so I wanted to make sure this could be used as supporting evidence for it.
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