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Gotta love Shonen protagonists getting stronger by doing jack all to actually improve their strength
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One Piece: Pre-Timeskip AP Revision
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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Alright this is fair
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What?
I calced an average tree height of Upper Yard and used that for other trees. I didn't google up "average tree".
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Oh, sorry, my mistake, I misinterpreted what Damage said.
But yeah, we still should consider Damage's idea of using Luffy being near to the tree to find its size.
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#1 You're literally debating against the 1.98 calc with the Luffy-tree argument
#2 The 1.54 MT one is the explosion Burn Bazooka which Luffy actually scales to
#2 The 1.54 MT one is the explosion Burn Bazooka which Luffy actually scales to
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I know we're debating against the 1.98 calc, I just wanna know why it wasn't possible to use it in the scaling.
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GodlyCharmander
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You're not doing anything.
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Unless there are very specific trees in upper Yard that are just SMALLER than the rest, then using the average size of an Upper Yard tree (considering they're sometimes all in view from certain angles) isn't anything crazy.
Seems like it's more spectulative to assume some trees are just smaller than relying on multiple wide view shots that show all the trees being about the same size or close to. Especially because Oda intentionally draws characters bigger so they're visible next to gigantic things (like Luffy with the tree, or Zoro being visible when cutting Pica, etc--)
Shots that focus on the characters always have them bigger compared to how actually big they are in that environment. Like these:
Here Luffy's standing on that branch/trunk and it looks thrice his size
Yet when he leaps off it, it looks barely bigger than him fully outstretched from head to toe
Alternatively, in the first panel you can see a palm tree, so:
You can instead use the environment itself, compare the palm tree closest to the screen to Wyper (who's in the background)
And scale it to all the massive trees around it, which going by the background all look to be about the same size.
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It's not speculative at all for not all trees to be the exact same size.
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Luffy vs Wyper occured in this general area/field. All the bigger trees look the same height.And scale it to all the massive trees around it, which going by the background all look to be about the same size.
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I have my doubts towards this proposed bit of scaling for the Pacifistas.
We already accept that the Pacifista's attacks don't scale to Kizaru's 6-B levels of Attack Potency despite them using attacks based effectively the same Devil Fruit ability, so I can't think of a good reason for them to scale to his 7-A attacks either, and not just because it's a less impressive value than 6-B.
Kizaru's 7-A calc here is one of his biggest, most destructive calced feats and the Pacifista's attacks, which we see frequently, never match up to this power from what we see of them, as far as I can recall. Seems reasonable to me that if we're not going to scale the Pacifista's to Kizaru's full power in the first place, then we shouldn't be scaling them to his most powerful feats too without good evidence.
i can see why people question would question that they'd be less impressive if they're the "same laser" and for that, whilst I think that the Pacifista's lasers are based on the same mechanism as Kizaru's laser, I don't think there's any solid reason for them to be as inherently powerful. Devil Fruit attacks can vary significantly in power and just because a character has two or more attacks based on their own Devil Fruit doesn't mean they'll be necessarily equal in potency. Likewise for multiple characters using attacks based on the same Devil Fruit power. There's just no good reason for them to scale here.
It would be simpler and more reliable IMO just to rate the Pacifista's based on their own feats & scaling, rather than trying to scale them to Kizaru's feats whilst sidestepping scaling them to Kizaru's powerscaled AP.
GodlyCharmander
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This is where the flaw of this reply comes from. We are not trying to powerscale the Pacifista to Kizaru in any way, shape or form. This doesn't represent Kizaru's AP, but rather the power output from his Devil Fruit, nothing other than that.
Before you say it, "are you implying a 6-B's DF is 7-A in Potency?" Absolutely, yes. That doesn't really make the fruit useless, as it still very much pierces through one's body with heat, essentially bypassing their conventional durability, thus, saying the explosion itself is 7-A is perfectly fine and doesn't contradict the narrative in any way. Furthermore, the evidence for the Pacifista scaling to the DF is clear, as pointed out in the Original Post, they are modeled with Vegapunk's technology, which can mimic Devil Fruits to near perfection (and even then, some are them are considered a failure). The Pacifista's lasers are a straight up copy and paste from Kizaru's, it wouldn't make any sense for it to not have the same potency of the fruit itself, given it's a perfect copy.
Addressing the destructive part. Well, we'll have to disagree once again, as Kizaru's feat isn't "7-A" in terms of pure destruction in the first place, it's just how much kinetic energy it employed into the mangrove, furthermore, this same event of "not as destructive afterwards" also applies to Kizaru, none of his explosions are as impressive as the first one despite actively trying to kill the straw hats with said lasers. (As most are comparable in size to the Pacifista's). Note that the first lasers was aimed at fodders, so the argument that he went easier on the straw hats goes out of the window So this falls under Area of Effect. The Pacifistas do not have to shoot a mangrove for them to scale. If you need more evidence that Kizaru's Devil Fruit explosions are 7-A, take the fact that Zoro takes the full blunt of said explosion to the face, survived, and Kizaru states that he only got knocked out because he was far too tired in the first place, which directly says to us that Zoro would've been able to keep fighting after one of Kizaru's own explosions.
GodlyCharmander
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This was addressed before, and no.
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This is a bit pedantic I feel, as the calc is for an attack from Kizaru using his Devil Fruit, meaning it is both a calc for Kizaru and his ability.
I don't think that a 7-A calc proves that the attacks using lasers based on the Devil Fruit are inherently 7-A. You say "It wouldn't make sense for them not to have the same potency" but I don't see how that is the case.
It's a replication of Kizaru's laser, not a replication of his complete power. There is no statement to them being as powerful as Kizaru's usage of them. And we know that attacks using the same Devil Fruit power can vary in potency anyway; even if they recreated the mechanism of Kizaru's power, there isn't enough evidence that the Pacifista's attacks are as powerful as Kizaru's most powerful attacks.
To put it another way; you're calcing the most powerful feat shown by the Pika-Pika Devil Fruit, and trying to say this is the minimum standard to which all laser attacks must be equal to.
Kizaru was told off for his earlier destructive attack and it seems reasonable to me that he held back after that to not be so destructive. His later explosions not matching up to his first one can be due to that, and that still doesn't prove the Pacifista's typical attacks as being as powerful as his most powerful attacks.
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Literally stated that the laser has the same offensive power as kizaru
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So you're saying the BASE of the Pika pika lasers is 7-A based on its kinetic energy alone, without accounting for Kizaru's own AP?
I mean it should make sense as to why a single hit from him didn't kill Zoro or even KO him entirely.
^^^^^^
Literally stated that the laser has the same offensive power as kizaru
Adding to that. Devil fruits do have a BASE ability. Crocodile said INDIVIDUALS can make DFs far stronger by honing said abilities in time.
Extremely casually holding back to fodder Kizaru putting basically no effort in being 7-A makes sense purely based off his DF's base offense scaling to everything else in that arc. (Again, otherwise Zoro would've just been dead or KO'D, not falling due to canonically noted out exhaustion)
Pacifistas lasers seem to do just about the same damage to other Supernova if I recall correctly anyway. So their base laser offense=the NATURAL Kinetic force of Kizaru's DF without Kizaru as an individual developing it makes sense.
GodlyCharmander
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Well, Monkey kinda debunked this already. Also, no I am not taking the "most powerful feat", I am taking the "only" feat, which was quite literally casual.
He says he overdid it a bit against fodder. No one told him to hold back, especially against the SH. They told him that he shouldn't be knocking down mangroves. Saying he is holding back more with the Straw Hats more than he did against random fodder is absolutely an extraordinary claim without any sort of backup.
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Kizaru's offensive power is 6-B, so this doesn't make a lot of sense.
Literally stated that the laser has the same offensive power as kizaru
On a certain level this makes sense.
If an explosion is big enough, it will be X tier. If an objective is thrown up with enough force, that has a certain amount of kinetic energy which is X tier.
But this does not mean all of the lasers have the same X tier value. This isn't Area of Effect, this is just basic reasoning. If the reason why that mangrove-destroying explosion from Kizaru is X Tier is because it threw up the Mangrove with a certain amount of kinetic energy, then the smaller explosions will be less powerful.
After all, we see the characters being thrown around by the explosions after they detonate close to them - but not with anywhere near the amount of energy shown by the first explosion with the mangrove. So logically the other explosions are just less powerful.
Nothing is really being "held back" since the actual attack is primarily the durability-negating lasers, not the explosions.
Devil Fruit's having a base level of ability =/= All attacks from a Devil Fruit being the same power.
Technically he doesn't have to be holding back, as I said above, because he's using dura-negating lasers on them. The explosions being smaller, and therefore less powerful, wouldn't stop that property of his lasers.
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It's talking about the laser... Nothing else, it does make sense... Kizaru laser = pacifista laser... For example his light sword against rayleigh would be much higher as hes using his own strength as well, his lasers does/did nothing to Rayleigh
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If an attack from a user that's just toying around and barely putting in effort has similiar effect to the offense of his base ability in a weapon, then that's the base offense of the ability.
Kizaru's lasers when he's actually trying could be hundreds of times than the natural output of the Light fruit itself due to how long he's had it to grow with it.
PX=/=Kizaru's offense
PX=Pika Pika's regular offense=Effortless Kizaru.
GodlyCharmander
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It is obviously referring to the lasers offensive power, as that what was replicated. The databook stated it, you're twisting the statement with biased interpretation when it is obvious what was trying to be communicated there.
It is Area of Effect. It doesn't have to be the same size to carry the same amount of energy, you are quite literally appealing to reality in this reply.
"Well, logically, smaller explosions of this fictional power source is weaker than the 7-A explosion that was 7-C in size at best"
This doesn't make any sense, Damage. The size of the explosions is not a factor for the 7-A calculation., in fact, the size contradicts the level of kinetic energy displayed. Thus using the size of the explosions afterwards isn't valid.
You're comparing oranges to apples. Saying the size isn't the same isn't nearly enough to suggest the amount of energy behind it isn't the same, because the energy is unrelated to size in any way or form.
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Not all uses of the same Devil Fruit ability are going to be the same level of power. Just because Kizaru can produce a laser with a 7-A explosion as a side-effect, does not mean that he or the Pacifisita's will always produce lasers that have 7-A explosions as a side-effect regardless of how big the explosions are.
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I think this is hypocritical. The only reason why that explosion is 7-A is because of reality and the size of the calced explosion, and the visible effects is creates with the Mangrove.
If the size is irrelevant, then the AP of the blast can be anything and therefore cannot be calced.
GodlyCharmander
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Oh, so the size doesn't matter? Great that you think that.
The Pacifista is a human weapon, and his lasers have the same offensive power as Kizaru's lasers, which is 7-A. He is capable of using 7-A levels of energy. Why would he not use it against someone he is trying to eliminate?
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That isn't convincing enough for me personally to say that every attack for a Pacifista must be 7-A.
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The lasers specifically will... It's like someone copying luffy's gum gum pistol... And having the same ap as his gum gum pistol... Sure things like Yasakani no Magatama won't scale to the pacifista as it's a completely different technique and not something pacifists can do which also look completely different to the normal laser and how it's used
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I'm not convinced that the Pacifista's are capable of 7-A attacks just because Kizaru made a 7-A explosion.
If we can just calc the explosions to find the AP of the attacks, why would you not want to calc the Pacifista's attack themselves? Is that not an option? If we can get a variety of results, can we not then just look at what is most consistent?
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Then I am genuinely sorry, but how does the Sabaody arc Monster Trio scale to the Pacifistas then?
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Pacifistas are machines. They won't hold back in terms of offense when they're locked on target (we see them trying to incinerate fodder left and right)
Also
Physically:
PX beat on Urouge for a while and Urouge remained conscious and returned to fighting
Yet ONE SINGLE SHOT from the PX/Pika laser:S
Drops an amped Urouge
Seriously, he's laid out FLAT in one panel:
So clearly: Pika laser's base offense>>amped Urouge>PX physically
GodlyCharmander
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There is a difference between using reality to measure, and use reality to limit, one is a method that doesn't hinder fiction, the other is very much a fallacy. You know this very well.
The size of the explosion is not the reason behind this at all. Had the explosion been the size of a needle, but the mangrove was thrown into the air in the exact same way, the value would not change whatsoever.
Again, the size isn't accurate to the energy it displayed, so it cannot be used as a counter-argument for other explosions. I am sorry, but I suggest you to use another argument.
I am sorry, but since an official source stated it was the same, your compliance isn't really a factor anymore. There isn't any more room for evidence, an official source giving us a definitive answer is the second best thing we could have, and if that doesn't convince you, then you're simply not willing to be convinced.
We don't calculate the size of the explosions because AoE is a thing. The sizes are obviously below what it should even scale to.
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@GodlyCharmander If the explosion has a measurable effect regardless of the size of the explosion, but that measurable effect is absent in other cases of it, then would that not suggest a possible inconsistency?
If you're saying that any explosion created by a Pacifista or Kizaru will automatically create 7-A levels of kinetic energy on its surroundings... but we almost never see that... Then how can we accept that as being a reliable proposition?
Do you think it just a coincidence that the biggest explosion generates the biggest measurable effect, and the considerably smaller explosions don't generate anything near to the same effect?
I'm not willing to be convinced by unconvincing arguments. I make no apologies for that.
If you're saying that any explosion created by a Pacifista or Kizaru will automatically create 7-A levels of kinetic energy on its surroundings... but we almost never see that... Then how can we accept that as being a reliable proposition?
Do you think it just a coincidence that the biggest explosion generates the biggest measurable effect, and the considerably smaller explosions don't generate anything near to the same effect?
I'm not willing to be convinced by unconvincing arguments. I make no apologies for that.
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Pacifistas are machines. They won't hold back in terms of offense when they're locked on target (we see them trying to incinerate fodder left and right)
Also
Physically:
PX beat on Urouge for a while and Urouge remained conscious and returned to fighting
Yet ONE SINGLE SHOT from the PX/Pika laser:S
Drops an amped Urouge
Seriously, he's laid out FLAT in one panel:
So clearly: Pika laser's base offense>>amped Urouge>PX physically
They literally temporarily one-shot someone stronger than themselves (and Urouge stays down for a good few pages before Kizaru kicks him again)
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I wasn't denying that.
GodlyCharmander
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"7-A levels of Kinetic Energy on its surroundings"?
Damage, this is the greatest case of confirmation bias I've since this month.
This should be the third time that I tell you that fiction often uses concepts like area of effect, if the 7-A energy is packing its punch in a specific area, obviously it won't have the same effects when as before when said area was not restricted.
Something can scale to 7-A and not cause 7-A levels of destruction/effects every time it's used. That's a thing. The only reason why other universes like DB, or Naruto aren't mountain level is because of that.
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