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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #5
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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I wake up, catch up on a bunch of posts made while I was sleping, and find the scaling hasn't changed much. The same problems keep popping up :S
@Cin: I mean, if haki negated Dfs then that kind of makes Yami fruit pointless. At best a difference in Haki may help "resist" certain hax just as it does AP/Dur via usual stats. That would parralelll the use of similar devices (Reiatsu, chakra, etc) used in other verses . . . .
But honestly that all seems like a discussion warranting a seperate thread and I don't want to deviate from the topic. I'll just say lazers and magma are standard forms of energy distribution and do not qualify as hax/dur negation.
That brings me back to WB again. How many times do I have to repeat myself. He does not scale to Island level
Prime Wb? Okay, maybe the world's strongest man who was never actually the strongest as he tied with Roger who ties with Garp, scales to the world's strongest thing (Kaido), maybe.
Old sick and dying WB? WB who is consistantly said in MF to be a shell of former self? Not likely.
WB Quakes? Maybe, they are his DF power. That applies only to his AP. Its a attk that is not Whitebeard's physical punches/kicks, so that AP/Dur does not apply.
WB feats would put just way too many characters at Island level. Why on earth does Squard have a mesely 200 mill bounty if he is Emperor level threat to WG?
This feels like the tenth time I'm explaining the flaws but Damage keeps pushing for WB pirates anyway. :-(
Bottom line,
The top down scaling has to stop Damage.
@Cin: I mean, if haki negated Dfs then that kind of makes Yami fruit pointless. At best a difference in Haki may help "resist" certain hax just as it does AP/Dur via usual stats. That would parralelll the use of similar devices (Reiatsu, chakra, etc) used in other verses . . . .
But honestly that all seems like a discussion warranting a seperate thread and I don't want to deviate from the topic. I'll just say lazers and magma are standard forms of energy distribution and do not qualify as hax/dur negation.
That brings me back to WB again. How many times do I have to repeat myself. He does not scale to Island level
Prime Wb? Okay, maybe the world's strongest man who was never actually the strongest as he tied with Roger who ties with Garp, scales to the world's strongest thing (Kaido), maybe.
Old sick and dying WB? WB who is consistantly said in MF to be a shell of former self? Not likely.
WB Quakes? Maybe, they are his DF power. That applies only to his AP. Its a attk that is not Whitebeard's physical punches/kicks, so that AP/Dur does not apply.
WB feats would put just way too many characters at Island level. Why on earth does Squard have a mesely 200 mill bounty if he is Emperor level threat to WG?
This feels like the tenth time I'm explaining the flaws but Damage keeps pushing for WB pirates anyway. :-(
Bottom line,
The top down scaling has to stop Damage.
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Dr. Fix; that's not far off what has already been suggested so far.
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@Damage - The Commanders should not scale on par with the Admirals, especially Jozu as, like I pointed out, Doflamingo would logically need to scale (Not to mention Gear 4th BM Luffy as well for defeating Katakuri, meaning he scales too, and Doflamingo can take hits and block Gear 4th attacks in a weakened state), and that none of the Commanders inflicted any damage to the Admirals with the sole exception of Jozu, via surprise attack, but only causing Aokiji to bleed just a little. At least High 7-A is fine for them. Marco relied on Regen to fight Kizaru and Akainu, we have no idea how Jozu vs Aokiji went off-panel until the one-shot surprise attack, and Vista vs Mihawk was most definitely Mihawk holding back considering statements and how we've previously seen him fight.
@Ronnijuro - Different generations of Admirals. It's not stated or alluded that Fujitora or Ryokugyo are on par with the likes of Aokiji or Kizaru for example. If it is later stated or proven that Fujitora is equal in power to any of the 3, then that will immediately affect his scaling. As for now, the only argument that can be made is that "He is Admiral, therefore he should scale", but that makes little sense. Vice-Admirals range from 7-A to High 7-A and 6-C here depending who you look at.
Kizaru scales to the other admirals due to similar feats in combat, and also pressuring Rayleigh in combat, as well as fighting Whitebeard (in fact, he was the most successful of the Admirals in this area--which isn't saying too much to be fair).
@Fix - WB, even in his old age, clashed with Shanks and has been stated to fight the other Yonko on more than one occasion. Yes he is Island level even as an old, sick man. Admirals don't fully scale since, while they COULD fight him, they were clearly outmatched despite managing to land effective attacks (Which can be chalked up to dura-negation considering the functions of each DF used by the Admirals)
@Ronnijuro - Different generations of Admirals. It's not stated or alluded that Fujitora or Ryokugyo are on par with the likes of Aokiji or Kizaru for example. If it is later stated or proven that Fujitora is equal in power to any of the 3, then that will immediately affect his scaling. As for now, the only argument that can be made is that "He is Admiral, therefore he should scale", but that makes little sense. Vice-Admirals range from 7-A to High 7-A and 6-C here depending who you look at.
Kizaru scales to the other admirals due to similar feats in combat, and also pressuring Rayleigh in combat, as well as fighting Whitebeard (in fact, he was the most successful of the Admirals in this area--which isn't saying too much to be fair).
@Fix - WB, even in his old age, clashed with Shanks and has been stated to fight the other Yonko on more than one occasion. Yes he is Island level even as an old, sick man. Admirals don't fully scale since, while they COULD fight him, they were clearly outmatched despite managing to land effective attacks (Which can be chalked up to dura-negation considering the functions of each DF used by the Admirals)
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Fine. At least High 7-A for the commanders though I don't fully agree with your view on Doflamingo scaling.
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I understand, but the point on Doflamingo revolves around him being depicted as messing around with the Commanders time and time again. No matter how you look at it, Atmos and even Jozu were helpless against his threads, while Luffy broke free w/ Gear 4th, and Doflamingo still took hits from him. Also, Bound-Man being depicted easily more powerful physically than either Cracker or Katakuri as well, the latter who should be comparable to King and even Marco in this regard.
I know I seemingly ALWAYS vouch for Doflamingo, but these points are irrefutable as they happen in canon.
Also, regarding Jozu, i think it should be noted on his profile, he has high resistance or immunity to slashing attacks, and Daz Bones should also have this ability due to being made of steel, and being unscathed by Zoro in their fight until the very end (possible haki usage or swordsman technique we're just being alluded to). After all, Daz blocked a slash from Mihawk before promptly being one-shot (again, possible haki usage). This would explain Jozu being able to maintain his position and block the attack, if we were to assume Mihawk threw that attack with the full intent on hurting WB.
I know I seemingly ALWAYS vouch for Doflamingo, but these points are irrefutable as they happen in canon.
Also, regarding Jozu, i think it should be noted on his profile, he has high resistance or immunity to slashing attacks, and Daz Bones should also have this ability due to being made of steel, and being unscathed by Zoro in their fight until the very end (possible haki usage or swordsman technique we're just being alluded to). After all, Daz blocked a slash from Mihawk before promptly being one-shot (again, possible haki usage). This would explain Jozu being able to maintain his position and block the attack, if we were to assume Mihawk threw that attack with the full intent on hurting WB.
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Why would he need high resistance to slashing attacks as opposed to just having extremely high durability in his diamond form? After all the only time he took damage in his diamond form to my knowledge is when Aokiji froze him and broke off his arm which is easily explained by Aokiji possessing durability negation.
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Regarding most Paramecia, who are of the physical variant, they have resistances to specific types of attacks. Daz resists slashing attacks via statements and even proving this against Zoro (who needed to develop a method on cutting through steel), and I'm pretty sure Jozu's fruit is a superior variant, so resistance to slashing attacks and possibly even other physical attacks.
So I'm sure Jozu would have higher durability against all physical attacks including slashing attacks, but elemental attacks like fire, ice, heat, etc should not be effectively blocked out by his diamond form.
So maybe "At least High 7-A normally (Should be comparable to the other commanders), possibly 6-C when against physical attacks (Blocked a slash from Mihawk in his diamond form)" regarding his Durability
So I'm sure Jozu would have higher durability against all physical attacks including slashing attacks, but elemental attacks like fire, ice, heat, etc should not be effectively blocked out by his diamond form.
So maybe "At least High 7-A normally (Should be comparable to the other commanders), possibly 6-C when against physical attacks (Blocked a slash from Mihawk in his diamond form)" regarding his Durability
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is better put admirals with likely 6-C for damages Whitebeard, and Akainu should be scalling with Yonkous, since he almost kills whitebeard in Marineford with two attacks. And Aokiji is comparable to Akainu (Punk Hazard fight). Commanders don't scalling with admirals. Jozu was one-shoted by Aokiji, Marco falls with a casual attack from Garp, Akainu easily kills Ace and Vista don't make nothing in the war.
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@Rei - they are already being listed with a likely to 6-C (But still At least High 7-A), and we've been over that the Admirals each have a form of Durability negation. Akainu melted/vaporized WB's chest and head and can liquify steel instantly. Meanwhile, with WB using Haki in combat, he smacked all of Akainu's attacks aside and nearly one-shot him. There's only one instance where he clashed equally with WB (unless it was filler) and afterwards, WB dominated until his heart attack.
Only known Haki users (Marco [tho he was relying mostly on his regen], Jinbe, Rayleigh, WB, Shanks, Jozu, Vista, and so on) have been seen blocking the DF attacks from the 3 Admirals
Only known Haki users (Marco [tho he was relying mostly on his regen], Jinbe, Rayleigh, WB, Shanks, Jozu, Vista, and so on) have been seen blocking the DF attacks from the 3 Admirals
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Regarding the rest, I'll just repeat myself. Fire, wind, water, whatever attk that isn't a straight punch. They all have an energy output calculated and fixed to an AP (Chech the table). All this Dur negation is being thrown around way too easily. its much simpler to just let go of the underline, never proven, and obviously contradicted, assumption that WB is physically 6-C. Mihawk to for that matter.
At least High 7-A, possibly 6-C. easily as strong as whitbeard's commanders. Possibly as powerful as Shanks but has yet to be seen.
At least High 7-A,physically. Possibly 6-C AP with quakes. While not as physically imposing as other Yonkos in his old age, WB should still have a way of holding them off.
At least High 7-A, possibly 6-C. easily as strong as whitbeard's commanders. Possibly as powerful as Shanks but has yet to be seen.
At least High 7-A,physically. Possibly 6-C AP with quakes. While not as physically imposing as other Yonkos in his old age, WB should still have a way of holding them off.
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Whitebeard has numerous statments that imply he was the strongest pirate at his time of death.
Buggy claims he is the man closest to One Piece and the strongest living pirate: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5YLTuopcJ...BpiUYShVR6aZF5VZiU62_QCHM/s16000/0233-013.png
Whitebeard also considers himself the strongest: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tVf0jfe6s...ea1epieJfVtVeMroCoLmygCHM/s16000/0563-023.png
Whitebeard is not the kind of character who would brag about his own strength to himself. So their is no reason to doubt that he is.
Even the info sections in the Marnieford arc volumes state Whitebeard is the strongest pirate: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i_DzGxnMN...fnR0RQwmspHmcQpdwh4d7wCHM/s16000/0552-006.png
Big Mom states that if she had the giants she would have defeated Kaido, Shanks and even Whitebeard: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YG7868DfG...CD4RUZA10ltHNZQ0QCHMYBhgL/s16000/0847-015.png
So Big Mom considers Whitebeard above the rest of the Yonko. Some have tried to argue that she is talking about the crew. However, Big Mom could defeat everyone weaker than Whitebeard herself without her own crew (she is vastly above her own commanders who are comparable to Whitebeard's commanders and easily took an attack from G4 Luffy). So she must be specifically talking about the Yonko.
Mihawk also wanted to test the difference in strength between himself and Whitebeard: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WJu_Xgcb9...r-PAPEUC9L_om8PXUuomkQCHM/s16000/0553-014.png
This is after he lost intrest in fighting Shanks. So Mihawk must consider Whitebeard above Shanks in strength.
This should be more than enough to argue to Whitebeard is comparable to (if not the strongest of) the Yonko.
Buggy claims he is the man closest to One Piece and the strongest living pirate: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5YLTuopcJ...BpiUYShVR6aZF5VZiU62_QCHM/s16000/0233-013.png
Whitebeard also considers himself the strongest: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tVf0jfe6s...ea1epieJfVtVeMroCoLmygCHM/s16000/0563-023.png
Whitebeard is not the kind of character who would brag about his own strength to himself. So their is no reason to doubt that he is.
Even the info sections in the Marnieford arc volumes state Whitebeard is the strongest pirate: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i_DzGxnMN...fnR0RQwmspHmcQpdwh4d7wCHM/s16000/0552-006.png
Big Mom states that if she had the giants she would have defeated Kaido, Shanks and even Whitebeard: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YG7868DfG...CD4RUZA10ltHNZQ0QCHMYBhgL/s16000/0847-015.png
So Big Mom considers Whitebeard above the rest of the Yonko. Some have tried to argue that she is talking about the crew. However, Big Mom could defeat everyone weaker than Whitebeard herself without her own crew (she is vastly above her own commanders who are comparable to Whitebeard's commanders and easily took an attack from G4 Luffy). So she must be specifically talking about the Yonko.
Mihawk also wanted to test the difference in strength between himself and Whitebeard: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WJu_Xgcb9...r-PAPEUC9L_om8PXUuomkQCHM/s16000/0553-014.png
This is after he lost intrest in fighting Shanks. So Mihawk must consider Whitebeard above Shanks in strength.
This should be more than enough to argue to Whitebeard is comparable to (if not the strongest of) the Yonko.
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@Rei - Doesn't even appear like WB was using his DF whereas Akainu was (If the scan prior says otherwise, by all means, show it). Then we see Akainu throw a punch and WB stops it with his own before the fight goes off-panel.Js250476 said:
Doesn't seem like Akainu is comparable in that aspect. Very different from the anime, in fact.
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@Fix - Lolok. He may not have had Kaido's design down yet, but ALL of the Yonko have engaged eachother face to face on occasion. Somehow the lack of design means Kaido is irrelevant to the lore until post time-skip? Illogical.
Whitebeard was hailed as the strongest man/pirate/thing in the world after Roger's death. Kaido was only called the strongest creature after the time-skip, which was, ooo guess what, AFTER WB DIED.
Shanks engaged Kaido during the events of Marineford, but obviously it's unknown if they even fought, or Kaido backed off... either way, that implies Shanks as being a note-worthy threat to Kaido, otherwise, why would he show up to Marineford unscathed in any case (and Kaido was intent on intercepting WB)? Not to mention Kaido was confirmed to have been captured by the marines and other Yonko alike more than a few times. Only issue is that no one could kill him (we don't know if he has some special ability to be invulnerable or what)
And the Admirals literally do ignore durability... Do you not understand how temperature affects the body? Akainu melts steel instantly, and has been shown vaporizing WB's body parts on more than one occasion. The ability to vaporize part of his skull instantly is Dura negation. Aokiji freezes people and it corrodes their body via frost-bite, or the cold makes their bodies brittle that simply falling over shatters them. Kizaru beams have vaporized targets. The only exception is against Haki, which, AGAIN, nullifies the effects of Devil Fruits.
Whitebeard was hailed as the strongest man/pirate/thing in the world after Roger's death. Kaido was only called the strongest creature after the time-skip, which was, ooo guess what, AFTER WB DIED.
Shanks engaged Kaido during the events of Marineford, but obviously it's unknown if they even fought, or Kaido backed off... either way, that implies Shanks as being a note-worthy threat to Kaido, otherwise, why would he show up to Marineford unscathed in any case (and Kaido was intent on intercepting WB)? Not to mention Kaido was confirmed to have been captured by the marines and other Yonko alike more than a few times. Only issue is that no one could kill him (we don't know if he has some special ability to be invulnerable or what)
And the Admirals literally do ignore durability... Do you not understand how temperature affects the body? Akainu melts steel instantly, and has been shown vaporizing WB's body parts on more than one occasion. The ability to vaporize part of his skull instantly is Dura negation. Aokiji freezes people and it corrodes their body via frost-bite, or the cold makes their bodies brittle that simply falling over shatters them. Kizaru beams have vaporized targets. The only exception is against Haki, which, AGAIN, nullifies the effects of Devil Fruits.
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In Ace's novel it was stated that Kaido is strongest creatur with the existence of WB , I know it's not canon but Oda read it and approved it + WB was extremely sick Marco said that, Akaino said that . He was still a monster but he was stapped by normal Marines . If it was BM or Kaido they will walk with no damage Kaido won't need to use his haki until an Admiral show up BM tanked a KG with her elbow casually
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@Cin,
Please clam down. I asked for the panel proving Old and Sick Whitebeard fought Kaido as you claimed but the bottom line is you didn't provide it. Everything else you posted just deviates from that.
Let's please all move on from dieing WB (Who was noted as being nowhere near his prime) being comparable to Kaido and then making a cornucopia of excuses to justfify who else does/doesn't scale to Kaido
Please clam down. I asked for the panel proving Old and Sick Whitebeard fought Kaido as you claimed but the bottom line is you didn't provide it. Everything else you posted just deviates from that.
Let's please all move on from dieing WB (Who was noted as being nowhere near his prime) being comparable to Kaido and then making a cornucopia of excuses to justfify who else does/doesn't scale to Kaido
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We consider the novels as supportive canon.
If it says that about WB then I'm Fine with him and all the people who scales being 6-C.
If it says that about WB then I'm Fine with him and all the people who scales being 6-C.
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Still Downgrade?
Stefano4444
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Either that or they should still get scale from Whitebeard, who scale from Zunisha, who is At least 27.9 Gigatons by merely walking, after all only the likes of Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru had been capable to trully handle Whitebeard (oblivius when his illness wasn't affect him) and not be treated as fodders.Ercosore said:
And Zunisha's walk feat is several times above baseline 6-C (at least 6.488 times), so each Admiral should still be 6-C despire be weaker than WB, and Jack did survive Zunisha's trunk (which is too 6-C) when he hasn't fully recover from his previous fight, which can support the possibility that scaling from Zunisha isn't limited to just the Yonkou.
So i think the most correct powerscale for High Tiers and Top Tiers should be:
Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaido, Big Mom, Blackbeard, Mihawk, Garp, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Sengoku = 6-C
Katakuri, Cracker, Smoothie, King, Queen, Jack, Gear (4th Luffy), Ace, Marco, Jozu, Vista, Fujitora = Likely 6-C
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re...ormation_from_ace_novel_vol_2/#ampf=undefined
I found this + in sandman's translation
I found this + in sandman's translation
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@Stefano; Cracker and Smoothie have nothing suggesting them to be Likely 6-C.
Most of the commanders should be At least High 7-A.
The ones that are Likely 6-C on top of that should be the ones shown to be capable of harming either an Admiral or a Yonkou.
Most of the commanders should be At least High 7-A.
The ones that are Likely 6-C on top of that should be the ones shown to be capable of harming either an Admiral or a Yonkou.
Stefano4444
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Cracker and Smoothie are Sweet Commanders just like Katakuri, meaning their strength wouldn't be too far off Katakuri or at least its illogical to think they must be on two complete different league of power (not when Cracker could fight off Gear 4th Luffy for hours) and logically they shouldn't be much weaker than other Top Yonko Commanders such as Jozu (who could hold off Aokiji until be distracted), Vista (who had fought Mihawk for a brief period of time) or Jack (who again survive Zunisha's trunk).Damage3245 said:
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Snack was also a Sweet Commander and he got beaten by Urouge.
Whitebeard has sixteen Commanders, yet there is no reason to think all sixteen must be on the same league as Marco.
Cracker fought against Gear 4 Luffy but was never shown actually tanking hits outside of his Haki-armored biscuits. He only clearly landed one good hit on him. This does not make him Likely 6-C.
Whitebeard has sixteen Commanders, yet there is no reason to think all sixteen must be on the same league as Marco.
Cracker fought against Gear 4 Luffy but was never shown actually tanking hits outside of his Haki-armored biscuits. He only clearly landed one good hit on him. This does not make him Likely 6-C.
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That actually should make Cracker 6-C at least for his AP.
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@Rin; that version of Luffy's Gear 4 isn't 6-C. That version is At least High 7-A, High 7-A+ with King Kong Gun.
Luffy's Gear 4 only becomes 6-C after getting stronger fighting Katakuri (assuming we're rating Katakuri as 6-C?)
Luffy's Gear 4 only becomes 6-C after getting stronger fighting Katakuri (assuming we're rating Katakuri as 6-C?)
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Boundman was stated and shown to be superior to Katakuri from the beginning of the fight.
Stefano4444
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Urouge's Devil Fruit power may had be the reason why he was able to defeat Snack.Damage3245 said:
I did say Top Yonkou Commanders for a reason, as in the sense of the strongest ones, which is also proven by their rank within the WB crew.Damage3245 said:
Marco, 1th Division Commander
Ace, 2th Division Commander
Jozu, 3th Division Commander
Vista, 5th Division Commander
The 4th Commander was Thatch, but we don't nothing about him but for what we know he may indeed be between Vista and Jozu in term of power.
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Alright. I think all of the Sweet Commanders should probably be rated as At least High 7-A then. Probably Higher for Katakuri's durability considering the number of hits he was able to take and keep on fighting.Calaca Vs said:
Unless we just put that under endurance.
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