One Piece: Post-timeskip Gear 3rd and Zoro's Swordstyles revision

[Eminiteable]

It's accepted here that Zoro's various sword styles multiply his strength accordingly, since it was yet to be implemented I wanted to start with his Post-time skip's first key.
(Note: Preferably I don't want to touch his Onigashima Key as it would require new scaling based only on the early chapters of the raid that will become obsolete when the actual Wano scaling thread happens)

Based on his currently accepted scaling this would make Zoro's tiers look like this:

Tier: 275 megatons with Ittoryu, 550 megatons with Nitoryu, 825 megatons with Santoryu, far higher with Busōshoku Haki, 2475 megatons with Asura

Which is fine, however, there is one feat performed by Ittoryu Zoro that actually would change the scaling slightly but not drastically: Zoro with Ittoryu was capable of overpowering Fujitora's gravity and pushing him back with his attack. Now, this shouldn't scale Zoro to Fujitora whatsoever, however, it should scale Ittoryu Zoro above Doflamingo's physicals (who scales to this feat) as unlike Zoro Doflamingo attempted to kick Fujitora but failed to move him whatsoever. The feat of pushing back Fujitora while he's blocking was also performed by Gear 2nd + 3rd Luffy and as such he should scale above Doflamingo's physicals with Gear 2nd + 3rd.

Making Zoro's scaling look like this:

Tier: 7-A (312 Megatons) with Ittoryu, higher (624 Megatons) with Nitoryu, even higher (936 Megatons) with Santoryu, High 7-A (1 Gigaton) with Busōshoku Haki, far higher (3 Gigatons) with Asura

Attack Potency: Mountain level with Ittoryu (Pushed back Fujitora with his attack which Doflamingo failed to do), Mountain level+ with Nitoryu (Is two times stronger than Ittoryu. Would have killed Basil Hawkins if not for his ability and matched his amped Straw-Man. cut down Monet's snow wall, while a smaller one could take the majority of a Gatling Gun from Gear 2nd Luffy w/ Buso), higher with Santoryu (Is three times stronger than Ittoryu. One shot overdosed Hyouzou), Large Mountain level with Busōshoku Haki (Even without Shusui he one-shot Killer who clashed equally against Nitoryu), Large Mountain level+ with Asura (Is three times stronger than his Santoryu w/ Buso)

Striking Strength: Mountain Class with Ittoryu, Mountain Class+ with Nitoryu, higher with Santoryu, Large Mountain Class with Busōshoku Haki, Large Mountain Class+ with Asura

Durability: Mountain level+ (As a physical fighter, he can withstand the force of his own physical attacks. Can block hits from those who can match his AP), Large Mountain level with Busōshoku Haki, even higher with Asura

And Luffy's Gear 2nd+3rd justification would look something like this:

Tier: 7-A (312 Megatons) with Gear 2nd+3rd,

Attack Potency: higher with Gear 2nd+3rd (Far stronger than Gear 2nd or Geard 3rd. Pushed back Fujitora with his attack which Doflamingo failed to do)

 

[KingTempest]

Luffy scales with Gear 2nd + Gear 3rd
Zoro's scaling is fine

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Question: Why does Zoro have an Asura mention for his Beginning of Timeskip key?

He never once uses it

 

[Damage3245]

Question: Why does Zoro have an Asura mention for his Beginning of Timeskip key?

He never once uses it

Tradition, I guess.

Once a character exhibits a certain power in one key, it is just generally carried over to the next key because he could do it, but just never did during the time that key covers.

Personally I think it would simplify the profiles a bit if it was removed.

 

[Eminiteable]

Question: Why does Zoro have an Asura mention for his Beginning of Timeskip key?

He never once uses it

Because he still has it as we saw against Kaidou, him not needing to use it (or more like Oda wanting to wait exactly 500 chapters) wouldn't stop it from being on his profile.

Luffy scales with Gear 2nd + Gear 3rd
Zoro's scaling is fine

I see, I'll update it then.

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[Damage3245]

Large Mountain level with Busōshoku Haki (Even without Shusui he one-shot Killer who clashed equally against Nitoryu)

Defeating a 7-A+ character wouldn't necessarily be enough to jump Zoro up to High 7-A.

 

[KingTempest]

Defeating a 7-A+ character wouldn't necessarily be enough to jump Zoro up to High 7-A.

I guess it's supporting justification for Haki upscaling from w/out Haki, as that Zoro (without Haki) is ~930 Megatons

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Tradition, I guess.

Once a character exhibits a certain power in one key, it is just generally carried over to the next key because he could do it, but just never did during the time that key covers.

Personally I think it would simplify the profiles a bit if it was removed.

Meh, I think we should just remove it since it’s never been showcased

 

[Eminiteable]

Defeating a 7-A+ character wouldn't necessarily be enough to jump Zoro up to High 7-A.

You're right but like Tempest mentioned it's basically just meant as support since the Santoryu rating is very close to the next tier.

 

[Damage3245]

higher with Gear 2nd+3rd (Far stronger than Gear 2nd and 3rd. Pushed back Fujitora with his attack which Doflamingo failed to do)

Pretty sure that should be "Far stronger than Gear 2nd or Gear 3rd".

 

[Eminiteable]

Pretty sure that should be "Far stronger than Gear 2nd or Gear 3rd".

Thank you, I've changed it.

Meh, I think we should just remove it since it’s never been showcased

We know how strong it is in comparison to Zoro & we know he still has it and how he uses it in the post-timeskip. For similar reasons we still include King Kong Gun rating in the WCI key as even though he didn't use we know how strong it is and we know it functions the same as in it's other keys.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I agree with the op


I also agree on keeping his asura, he can still use it and would use it if needed in whichever arc he is in, he just only uses it if he's put in that position to use it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Thank you, I've changed it.

We know how strong it is in comparison to Zoro & we know he still has it and how he uses it in the post-timeskip. For similar reasons we still include King Kong Gun rating in the WCI key as even though he didn't use we know how strong it is and we known it functions the same as in it's other keys.

I suppose that's fine

 

[KillerH]

If Im not mistaken in thriller bark shusui sword is mentioned to be several times stronger

than other swords. Will the several times multiplier apply? let say like 3x. so his santoryu is (3x1)+1+1=5. So Zoro Santoryu is like 5x his ittoryu?

 

[KingTempest]

no

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The OP is fine.

 

[Damage3245]

I have my doubts personally. Doflamingo's rating is taking his Haki into account as well, but there's no indication that he was using Haki against Fujitora or was particularly serious.

For Zoro just pushing back Fujitora as his primary 1 sword justification, it isn't exactly a solid chain.

 

[Eminiteable]

I have my doubts personally. Doflamingo's rating is taking his Haki into account as well, but there's no indication that he was using Haki against Fujitora or was particularly serious.

Doflamingo did harm Luffy with Buso: Koka active but there was also several times he didn't have it active and still hurt Luffy, same thing happened with his Black Knight.

Sure in these cases they're using haki to bypass his resistance but not much evidence of amping otherwise they'd use koka.

For Zoro just pushing back Fujitora as his primary 1 sword justification, it isn't exactly a solid chain.

He also stopped Sanji's Diable Jambe (who also hurt Luffy) and with a ranged slash one-shot a Seaking that was several times stronger than the one Gear 2nd Luffy one-shot.

Not to mention even just downscaling from his Nitoryu feats gives a very close rating to his fujitora feat.

 

[Eseseso]

1. I'm glad that Gear 2+3 is getting a good scaling, since it's clearly above both 2 and 3 on their own and deserves to get looked at.

2. What exactly would Gear 2+3 scale to or above, scaling and power value wise?

3. I agree with Asura being cut from Beginning of Timeskip Zoro's Key FRA, but I wouldn't care if it was kept.

4. So if I'm doing the math correctly:

Oven boiling sea calc (312.305959723 megatons) < Doflamingo < Ittoryu Zoro

2x Ittoryu Zoro = Nitoryu Zoro = 624.61 megatons

3x Ittoryu Zoro = Santoryu Zoro = 936.917 megatons

Busoshoku Zoro upscales to 1 gigaton (since apparently it's far above Santoryu, which is really close to 1 gigaton)

Asura is either 2.8108 gigatons (if it is 3x Santoryu), or 3 gigatons (if Busoshoku upscales to 1 gigaton from Santoryu)

How's that?

 

[Eminiteable]

1. I'm glad that Gear 2+3 is getting a good scaling, since it's clearly above both 2 and 3 on their own and deserves to get looked at.

2. What exactly would Gear 2+3 scale to or above, scaling and power value wise?

It scales above Doflamingo's physicals who scale to 312 Megatons.

4. So if I'm doing the math correctly:

Oven boiling sea calc (312.305959723 megatons) < Doflamingo < Issho < Ittoryu Zoro

Zoro's not scaling above Issho, re-read the op.

 

[Eseseso]

Zoro's not scaling above Issho, re-read the op.

Ok, I re-read and removed the Issho part, but what about the rest of Zoro's scaling I listed?

 

[Eminiteable]

Ok, I re-read and removed the Issho part, but what about the rest of Zoro's scaling I listed?

Check the OP, I edited it so you can see the values with the exact scaling.

 

[Eseseso]

Check the OP, I edited it so you can see the values with the exact scaling.

Ok, so it's basically what I thought.

Just as long as you're positive that Busoshoku Haki Zoro upscales from one shotting someone so far away from high 7-A (the multiplier between 1 gigaton and 624 megatons is 1.602x, and I've had proposed upscales denied for multipliers quite a bit below that).

 

[Eminiteable]

Just as long as you're positive that Busoshoku Haki Zoro upscales from one shotting someone so far away from high 7-A (the multiplier between 1 gigaton and 624 megatons is 1.602x, and I've had proposed upscales denied for multipliers quite a bit below that).

You should re-read the thread, he's upscaling from his Santoryu rating not his Nitoryu one. The feat is listed as a support for his buso feats.

 

[Eseseso]

You should re-read the thread, he's upscaling from his Santoryu rating not his Nitoryu one. The feat is listed as a support for his buso feats.

Oh, I see.

Sorry, I'm a bit scatterbrained today, what with finals and all.

But if you're sure about all the upscalings, then I agree with all your proposals for Zoro and Gear 2+3 Luffy.

 

[Eminiteable]

But if you're sure about all the upscalings, then I agree with all your proposals for Zoro and Gear 2+3 Luffy.

Thanks, I'm pretty sure considering what it says about this on the powerscaling page:

It is possible for a character who is depicted as vastly superior to another in a statistic to be placed in a tier above the other, given that the other character is close to the the next tier. However, this ultimately needs to be decided through case-by-case analysis.

And the difference between the tiers in a little over 1.05 times a difference.

 

[Eseseso]

Thanks, I'm pretty sure considering what it says about this on the powerscaling page:

And the difference between the tiers in a little over 1.05 times a difference.

Got it.

And it's basically a given that even Buso Zoro with 1 sword >>> Haki-less Santoryu, so this is fine.

I still miss 6-C Zoro though. Dude basically demolished every other 6-C character this forum put him up against.

 

[Eminiteable]

I suppose that's fine

What's your opinion on the other proposals in the op?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What's your opinion on the other proposals in the op?

Overall it's fine

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, back at my PC.

Pushed back Fujitora with his attack which Doflamingo failed to do

Personally I still don't like this as the sole justification of Zoro's 1-sword AP.

He moved an opponent with an attack that they weren't expecting versus Fujitora not budging from an attack from Doflamingo that he was expecting and on guard for.

Doflamingo did harm Luffy with Buso: Koka active but there was also several times he didn't have it active and still hurt Luffy, same thing happened with his Black Knight.
Sure in these cases they're using haki to bypass his resistance but not much evidence of amping otherwise they'd use koka.

If he's still using Haki, then he's still amping himself, even if it is not as high as Hardening would bestow.

There's no indication that he used a full strength kick on Fujitora, especially given that he wasn't serious about actually fighting him since he backed down right away.

He also stopped Sanji's Diable Jambe (who also hurt Luffy) and with a ranged slash one-shot a Seaking that was several times stronger than the one Gear 2nd Luffy one-shot.

Do you mean Doflamingo stopped Sanji or Zoro stopped Sanji?

Not to mention even just downscaling from his Nitoryu feats gives a very close rating to his fujitora feat.

Sure, but that's a different justification in my eyes.


At the moment I don't have a solid alternative without diving back into the manga for an investigation, but right now the scaling chain seems very shaky when we're making a no-Haki Zoro end up being multiple times stronger than the 2nd-strongest fighter in the entire Big Mom Pirates. The backscaling involved here should be removed IMO, and it would be safer to split the statistics of Luffy, Zoro and possibly Sanji.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I would be lying if I wasn't extremely skeptical of this Zoro scaling

Especially when Base Pica clashed with Nitoryu Zoro and then Gear 3rd Luffy messed up the Giant Stone Golem

 

[Eminiteable]

Personally I still don't like this as the sole justification of Zoro's 1-sword AP.

He moved an opponent with an attack that they weren't expecting versus Fujitora not budging from an attack from Doflamingo that he was expecting and on guard for.

Wrong, in both cases he was as on guard as he could have been for the attack. This idea that he was more on guard for Doflamingo is unfounded, and in fact we even get a VFX for Fujitora that he sensed Zoro's attack showing he wasn't off-guard when taking it.

If he's still using Haki, then he's still amping himself, even if it is not as high as Hardening would bestow.

There's no indication that he used a full strength kick on Fujitora, especially given that he wasn't serious about actually fighting him since he backed down right away.

No, not all haki is an amp to themself, you can use selective abilities of haki without relying on amping yourself; for example was Rayleigh using greater than 6-B+ force when he used haki to harm Luffy (as it's a requirement to bypass his resistance) or was Zoro using higher than his base AP when he used haki to cut Monet (Despite the fact he didn't want to hurt her for "reasons". In both cases the answer is no, you can use haki to bypass a devil fruit user's ability without needing to amp your AP.

Looked pretty angry when Fujitora suggested he would get rid of Doflamingo and based on the next page that's how Doflamingo took it. Fujitora told him to calm down as they can still work together at the time being; Doflamingo however had every intention of taking down Fujitora as later on he brought up with his crew that they would need to bring him down, only that it would be difficult.

Do you mean Doflamingo stopped Sanji or Zoro stopped Sanji?

Nope, Zoro stopped Sanji when he attempted to attack him with diable jambe.

Sure, but that's a different justification in my eyes.

Personally I still don't like this as the sole justification of Zoro's 1-sword AP.

It's not then.

At the moment I don't have a solid alternative without diving back into the manga for an investigation, but right now the scaling chain seems very shaky when we're making a no-Haki Zoro end up being multiple times stronger than the 2nd-strongest fighter in the entire Big Mom Pirates.

When did no Haki Zoro become stronger than Katakuri, even with this scaling???

The backscaling involved here should be removed IMO, and it would be safer to split the statistics of Luffy, Zoro and possibly Sanji.

Wdym?

Especially when Base Pica clashed with Nitoryu Zoro and then Gear 3rd Luffy messed up the Giant Stone Golem

covered this in the gear 2nd thread but these "sword clashes" have explicitly been described as Zoro blocking the opponent's attacks in the previous two arcs. Also the stone golem doesn't scale to Pica physically so not sure why you brought that up.

 

[SnookB]

I would be lying if I wasn't extremely skeptical of this Zoro scaling

Especially when Base Pica clashed with Nitoryu Zoro and then Gear 3rd Luffy messed up the Giant Stone Golem

I wouldn't rely on Pica too much in this scaling. Somehow Pica was FAR more confident using full body armament (claiming invincibility, which he never said when using the giant stone golem) than when he was in his giant stone form.
Pica with haki might unironically scale over his stone self.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eminiteable]

Since four staff members have agreed with the proposals would it be fine to apply the changes now?

 

[KingTempest]

Looks good to apply

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I'll just say I'm neutral on it so it should be fine to apply.

 

[Eminiteable]

Looks good to apply

Yeah, I'll just say I'm neutral on it so it should be fine to apply.

Thanks, I'll need Luffy's profile unlocking to apply the changes.