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One Piece Discussion Thread Seventeen Fishman Island

Js250476

Js250476

10,751
4,347
After the Strawhat pirates finally journeyed 10km below the sea and reached Fishman Island they discovered a wonderful sea where the sunlight reaches the ocean floor, giant sea creatures, beautiful mermaids and even a princess/ancient weapon. But also a unexpected conflict started by the New Fishman Pirates lead by the inherited hatred from a expansive history of prejudice between Fishman and Human in the form of Hody Jones.

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Fisher tiger last moments
Fisher tiger last moments

One Piece - Luffy Challenges Big Mom!
One Piece - Luffy Challenges Big Mom!

Luffy Haki vs 50000 new Fishmen Pirate
Luffy Haki vs 50000 new Fishmen Pirate

One Piece Jinbe Gives Luffy His Blood
One Piece Jinbe Gives Luffy His Blood

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@Calaca for the canon filler Toei adds i think it's fine to use if it doesn't contradict canon events, for example:

Zoro jumping off the Dog to fight the tiger wouldn't be acceptable since we know he just straight up got lost on the dog rather than jumping off, so it can't be used even though the tiger does appear in the manga.

But for Zoro slaying the Magistrate and the new gambling scene doesn't contradict what we know and as we know isn't just filler and actually happened.

Oda did say the anime would cover events he didn't have time to cover in the anime so unless they're contradictions they seem completely fine it add.

  • (EDIT) obviously this will only cover up to wano since that's the only time we get clarification from Oda and seems to be the only time the anime is actively trying to do it in accordance to the manga.
 
The Calaca said:
Do you have the source for Oda's confirmation? I agree that non-contradictory events should be considered valid just like Sabo's flashback.
Click to expand...
Let me find it, I remember it being talked about when the Wano arc started so I'll try dig up the source.
 
SBS 80 is where Oda explains a bit about Sabo's, Koala's and Hack's story, saying the same thing the anime showed and even saying that the anime covered that part, which is essentially him saying that on top of having to figure some parts by ourselves, the anime is telling how the events happened.
 
The Calaca said:
SBS 80 is where Oda explains a bit about Sabo's, Koala's and Hack's story, saying the same thing the anime showed and even saying that the anime covered that part, which is essentially him saying that on top of having to figure some parts by ourselves, the anime is telling how the events happened.
Click to expand...

Which means that part is canon. Nice
 
Not too much. He would be faster, but would do even less damage than Boundman and Kaido would have enough earlier.

That's what happens when he rushes on an enemy without keeping the calm. His Kenbunshoku was off so he didn't expect such result.
 
I always thought King Cobra was Luffy's ultimate attack (except maybe Gomu Gomu no cannonball), is king kong gun actually stronger ?
 
Most likely.

I'd say Cannonball is a close second as it destroyed three Biscuit Soldiers and sent Cracker flying through Whole Cake, but KKG is definitely stronger. It destroyed a Haki infused ultimate attack from Doffy, his Spider Web, defeated him and made a mess in Dressrosa.
 
@The Calaca

I know that it would be rude for me to ask you this, but can you give us a rough estimation of when you will make the speed revisions?
 
Probably a few weeks. Mostly because Usklaverei has to update Rayleigh's calc for it might support an upgrade.
 
(Lol, just remembered the profile said that Boundman was "slower than Kata" on Luffy's side. I'm editing that because that's never once suggested and is totally false. It even says on Kata's page that he couldn't keep up w/out Haki, yet Luffy's side says "Nah, Kata's totally faster")

The suggestion that Snake-Man is > Bound-Man in power renders the latter a completely pointless ability. People forget that Bound-Man Luffy was wrecking Katakuri with ease until Kata activated his Haki again, which Luffy at the time did not have access to yet until later in the fight.

To Summarize:

Bound-Man vs Katakuri (Chapters 884/885): Katakuri could not block any Bound-man attack without being wounded and sent flying a great distance, nor did he ever meet its strength head-on even with his Power Mochi due to his physical power + Haki being inferior to Bound-Man's sheer physical power + Haki. He also failed to deal significant damage to Bound-man until VERY late into the fight, where we finally see Luffy coughing up blood from another successful hit from Power Mochi.

  • Side-Note: Since the fight was off-panel for the majority of the time, we can probably assume Luffy was hit several times from this tactic since Katakuri appears to have just been using his Power Mochi to engage Luffy, and never went into him close-range (Lol which makes the anime look completely ridiculous in comparison. Somehow Base Kata in the anime was overpowering Bound-man? Lul)
However, Bound-Man clearly did not have the speed necessary to circumvent Katakuri's Future-sight, nor did he have Kenbunshoku to match him in the first place, as Katakuri was capable of dodging the attacks, and deflected them with his Power Mochi, therefore he was able to outlast Bound-Man in a contest of stamina, and was likely going to be victorious if the fight continued with no Gear 4th timer (Unless Luffy got that opening he was trying to force).

  • Also, keep in mind Luffy's Kenbunshoku at this time was significantly below Katakuri's.
  • Bound-Man Luffy > Katakuri in Power and Durability, but Katakuri > Bound-Man in Speed due to Kenbunshoku.
  • If you disagree that Power Mochi < Kong Gun in power, keep in mind that Katakuri intentionally deflected the punch from the side instead of meeting it head-on. Clear sign, especially since he's got pre-cog.
Snake-Man vs Katakuri (Chapter 895): Luffy outright states that Snake-Man is faster than Bound-Man before throwing his first punch. Katakuri, despite obviously using Haki from the start, can not process how the attacks are coming from the side until after the second already connects, and despite dodging the third momentarily, he is still hit due to Luffy's attacks further accelerating the more they travel (and here's where people fail to comprehend Katakuri's strategy later due to not paying any attention to statements made--and also cuz of anime inconsistencies). Katakuri managed to withstand these 3 punches with minimal damage before taking initiative. IMMEDIATELY following this, Kata evades another initial culverin punch from a distance and chooses to GET CLOSE TO LUFFY.

  • Side-Note: A lot of people think Kata is equal to Luffy in speed due to what happens next, but this is merely them failing to comprehend exactly why Luffy is outspeeding Kata less--it's obvious as hell. Snake-Man is a RANGED form, NOT a Melee form. It's strength is that it attacks significantly faster the further it travels, NOT because of raw power and speed. It's at its weakest in a melee brawl, which is WHY Katakuri immediately closed the distance after Luffy made himself vulnerable through throwing another attack, as it's impossible to perform a retreat when you're already extending yourself in combat.
Anyways, after landing a Zangiri Mochi (which hurts Luffy), both engage in a melee brawl, and they come to a momentary draw as they send eachother flying, but what becomes clear here is that Katakuri--in melee--is superior to Snake-Man despite being slower.

  • Side-Notex2: From this exchange, there's A LOT being proven to the reader. 1) Most obviously, Snake-Man is inferior in strength to Katakuri, as when their fists clash, Luffy yelps in pain, and Katakuri is shown easily taking Snake-Man's punches directly and Luffy can't withstand the hits as well, as he's shown taking more consecutive strikes from Katakuri, 2) While Luffy is proven to be quicker, his statement about Snake-Man shows that he relies heavily on range as we see his final punch go a further distance before hitting Kata by passing him before swinging back. 3) Katakuri is NOT using his Awakening because that more ranged focused, which he is severely disadvantaged in due to Luffy keeping up via Kenbunshoku, and simply being a far faster combatant--especially at range. He is STRICTLY keeping the fight close quarters because that's where he has the advantage.
After the exchange, Luffy's back in a ranged position, which helps, but Katakuri has already learned that his is physically superior despite being lesser in speed. Therefore, when Luffy's next set of attacks come, instead of attempting to evade, Katakuri blocked the onslaught. During the attack, again, Luffy is incapable of distancing himself, therefore this is the perfect time for Kata to close the distance again. Using his Haki and tight movements, Kata deftly evades the incoming punches (Again, tight movements mitigate a speed disadvantage, especially from a distance) before once again reaching Luffy's position and landing a strike. In the end, both get desperate: Kata trying to enter melee range again while Luffy sets up King Cobra by having the attack loop around himself before Kata can get in range, striking him fast enough so that he can't evade (This is me assuming Kata can still shift his body mid-attack, which is what we've seen him do before).

So basically, from the Katakuri fight alone, we can determine that Bound-Man is superior to Snake-man in both Power and Durability, however, it is inferior in Speed... ESPECIALLY at range.

Katakuri chose to use Awakening to keep Bound-Man Luffy distanced from himself, so that he'd have extra time to catch attacks since Luffy proved himself to be stronger, but it was the reverse against Snake-Man. Snake-Man is faster than Bound-man, which in turn was already faster than Katakuri without using his Haki, but it's even worse for Kata at a distance due to Luffy's attacks gaining speed (likely power too from momentum). He recognized this and thus moved to Luffy's weakest position--his actual location.

In regards to power: Bound > Kata > Snake, but in regards to speed: Snake > Kata >/=/< Bound (We only ever saw Bound-Man fight Kata without Luffy's boost in Kenbunshoku, so... can't determine based on this).

Long story short, Bound-Man is definitely stronger than Snake-Man. Otherwise, what's the point of that form? lol
 
The Calaca said:
Most likely.
I'd say Cannonball is a close second as it destroyed three Biscuit Soldiers and sent Cracker flying through Whole Cake, but KKG is definitely stronger. It destroyed a Haki infused ultimate attack from Doffy, his Spider Web, defeated him and made a mess in Dressrosa.
Click to expand...
That 100% does NOT meet the standard for evidence . . .
 
Also to sum up @Cameron's long post. Awakened Katakuri=>Boundman=>Snakeman (Depending on SPD)<=>base Katakuri=>Snakeman (Again depending on SPD).
 
@Fix and Calaca - TBH, with 0 statements or evidence, we can't argue which form of Luffy's has the strongest attack (KKG/CB/KC from each respective form), but we don't even know if Canon Ball is even Tank-Man's strongest attack.

I firmly believe Tank-Man > Bound-Man > Snake-Man when it comes to straight up power, but there's no evidence to suggest Canon-ball to be > KKG simply because of the following: King Kong Gun is basically a further amp'd version of Bound-Man, where Luffy has to pump even more air than he initially did to transform into Bound-Man.

Basically, King Kong Gun > Bound-Man in power. An obvious concept, but one forgotten because people forget he "transforms" again before he uses the attack on Doflamingo (We don't know if he needs to do this anymore as of Wano, but we'll see. This argument only really applies to Luffy's first two keys in Post Time-skip).

As of right now, i firmly believe KKG is Luffy's currently shown strongest attack, but it has nothing (except Kong Gun and I guess Leo Bazooka cuz all were used on Doflamingo) to scale to.

Anyways, evidence Tank-Man (At least Full Version) is stronger than the rest (Except KKG): Canon-Ball destroyed several Biscuit soldiers using Cracker as the base--one shotting him in the process while Kong-Gun COULD destroy a Biscuit Soldier, but this was not a guarantee since they could withstand a punch if they were blocking with their shield. Meanwhile, a Kong Gun could break Katakuri's guard and injure him, sending him flying while every Snake-Man attack could barely hurt him, and failed to break his guard every time.

Face-value: Canon-Ball (TM:FV) > Kong Gun (BM) > Jet Culverin (SM) but also King Kong Gun (Enhanced BM) > Kong Gun (BM) > Jet Culverin (SM). So Tank-Man (FV at least) is > Bound-Man, but we literally can't say the same regarding KKG because that's simply not "Bound-Man".

King Cobra is straight up the weakest if we take everything into consideration lol.
 
So is Snakeman an overall a better form than Boundman (especially in wide open spaces) or would you say they are equal ? Or does it depend on the type of enemy ?
 
@Whis - It always depends. It's like rock-paper-scissors.

Tank-Man is a focus on pure Power and Durability. It is best vs an opponent with an impenetrable guard and high attack power (The former kind of makes 0 sense regarding Cracker since he charged straight into Luffy with no defense lol). Cracker's Biscuit soldiers were enough to momentarily halt Bound Man while Cracker could infinitely make more soldiers to replace them, so Luffy needed more power to finish the job in one blow, which he did since he blasted through a line of Biscuits and defeated Cracker at the same time.

  • Emphasis on Power and Durability. No regard for mobility or speed.
Bound-Man is a balance. It's perfect in a brawling situation where both agility and strength are called into action. It perfectly incorporates speed and mobility (Albeit inferior to Snake-Man) with power and durability (Albeit inferior to Tank-Man). It is the standard go-to since it has no specific weakness, and in regards to each fight, Luffy was capable of overpowering Doflamingo, Cracker and Katakuri before each of them exposed their special abilities (Doflamingo's Awakening, Cracker's true ability, and Katakuri's Future-Sight) which all equalized the playing field, rendering Bound-Man incapable of successfully defeating any of them.

  • So basically, Bound-Man focuses on all aspects of Power, Durability, Speed, and Mobility, but none of them are enhanced to their "peak"
    • King Kong Gun should be treated as an "enhanced" version of Bound Man, as it's simply far superior to any of Luffy's previous attacks with the form. He used this to grant himself enough strength to defeat Doflamingo, though this KO'd himself as he pushed himself beyond his limit to do so.
Snake-Man is a pure focus on Speed and Mobility. It is also the best at range because, according to Luffy, its speed increases the more it expands. This was VERY important to use on Katakuri, because as shown with Bound-Man, even though Katakuri was weaker, he used his Kenbunshoku Haki and his Awakening to react to Bound-Man's attacks and also keep him at a safe distance. If Katakuri employed this same tactic, he would have outright lost because Luffy has the advantage at a distance. Katakuri nearly won the battle because he kept getting in Luffy's face where his attacks were the slowest.

  • Snake-Man regards Speed and Mobility above all else. Not much care for either Power (unless range because Momentum is a thing) or Durability at all.
If Katakuri did the same thing (melee) on Bound-Man like he did against Snake-Man, he would have basically thrown the fight. And if he did the same thing (Range/Awakening) to Snake-Man as he did against Bound-Man, he would have also thrown the fight. Katakuri read the situation and simply acted in a way that would most likely give him the victory, and he was nearly successful.

All forms are equal, but used for entirely different purposes.
 
To continue with my last post, regarding Luffy's 3 main Gear 4th fights:

Katakuri and Doflamingo each would have defeated Luffy if he used Tank-Man. Luffy's lack of mobility and speed would have left him vulnerable to each because they are both capable of reacting to Bound-Man and are DEFINITELY going to stay out of range against a seemingly immobile form (if not being just "slower" than Gear 4th). They would each use their ranged and awakening attacks, and easily waited out the timer before defeating him.

  • Doflamingo also uses mainly cutting attacks, so he'd eventually start cutting into Luffy if he breaks his Haki.
  • Cracker, being a HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE melee combatant completely failed against this form, as it is tailored to simply overpower that sort of fighter.
Doflamingo, Cracker, and Katakuri were ALL inferior to Bound-Man in a physical contest, Doflamingo and Katakuri resorted to keeping him at a distance until his strength ran out while Cracker used distractions and numbers to allow him to engage Luffy in between attacks. Luffy beat all of them in each physical category, but not enough to render his opponents useless against him, and since he's on a timer, it's even worse since he can't draw the fight out.

  • He could not defeat anyone with this form, but then he used more energy to create the KKG since his KG attacks were too weak to take Doflamingo down, though this was incredibly risky since the attack uses more energy. And if Doflamingo could hold his own against BM Luffy with grave injuries, he certainly can without them.
Doflamingo would have lost to Snake-Man Luffy, Cracker probably would have won EASILY, and Katakuri goes either way.

  • Doflamingo plays "keep-away" in character, and his ability is more suited for ranged attacks, so he would have fallen prey to Luffy's countless attacks since we know he is definitely slower than Bound-Man to some extent, which is even slower than Snake-Man, which is even slower than his ranged attacks. Doflamingo probably would not have chosen to go melee range because it's not his typical go-to, and Snake-Man would have stayed out of range easily due to speed. Doffy's only chance is outlasting the timer, which is very possible, but as long as Snake-Man is up, he's screwed and has to hide behind threads to stand a chance.
  • Cracker is a literal tank, and would just hide within/behind his Biscuit Soldiers. Snake-Man is weaker than Bound Man, which could barely destroy each Biscuit Soldier, so Cracker would be perfectly safe taking the onslaught of attacks while just sitting there making more shields at a clap while simultaneously attacking with his Biscuits.
  • Katakuri... well, my first wall of text in this thread explains what basically happened. It was basically a draw.
Overall, here's each opponent's strongest/weakest match-up for Gear 4th in my opinion:

Doflamingo: Weak against Snake-Man, Very Strong against Tank-Man (Ranged fighter slaps). Impasse with Bound-Man via Awakening and Thread Enhancement compensating his physical shortcomings.

Cracker: Very Weak against Tank-Man, Very Strong against Snake-Man. Equal against Bound-man via numbers/walls

Katakuri: Slightly Weak against Snake-Man, Slightly Strong against Tank-Man (As long as he stays ranged lol). Equal to Bound-Man via Kenbunshoku.

TL;DR

Against Tank-Man: Doffy > Kata > TM Luffy >> Cracker

Against Bound-Man: Cracker = Kata = Doffy >/= BM Luffy

Against Snake-Man: Cracker >> SM Luffy =/> Kata > Doflamingo

But if Luffy's Goken just straight-up bypasses durability even through Haki, Snake-Man defeats all of them pretty easily, Bound-Man defeats all of them too, and Tank-Man just... sits there being useless against Doffy/Kata.
 
Kay rant over.

Let's hope Luffy develops a Gear 4th that basically enhances everything to their peak. Basically Tank Man Power/Dura with Snake Man Speed/Mobility. He might actually be able to fight Kaido properly (Lose, but still fight lmao). Probably just a "perfect" Gear 4th. Or just Bound-Man enhanced to its peak.
 
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