One Piece: Asura's multiplier

[LordGinSama]

So limited matter manipulation / power null? I suppose that explains how he turned dense slashes of air pressure into mist.

 

[Eminiteable]

I guess so, there's also something about the swords he manifests being actually as strong as if he was wielding 9 swords, waiting for an accurate translation for it. Also it reconfirms something from another Databook where Asura only activates when Zoro's spirit is at it's highest, or something like that.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think Limited Matter Manipulation via Ashura sounds good.

 

[Bobsican]

Isn't that just Deconstruction?

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah deconstruction looks more accurate.

 

[Purgy]

Shouldn't evidence be posted before people say they agree with it? Not to say Eminiteable isn't trustworthy, but it seems odd that people are agreeing with something that hasn't actually been proven.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I've seen the scans before, so that's why I commented, but you're right they should be posted here for everyone to see.

Also yeah, I guess Deconstruction might be more accurate? Though I'm not sure, since the whole "turn to mist" thing implies a change in state rather than straight up destruction. Not sure tbh.

 

[Eminiteable]

Want to come back to this, for some reason the translation site translated 霧散 as only "atomisation" but it actually translates to Vanishing/Dispersing, my bad.

Although now that it's been brought up I wonder if (what the statement is referring too) turning opponent's attacks into mist on it's own justifies anything.

Also the source:

 

[KingTempest]

Evidence link.
Rankyaku is just compressed air. He's turning the air into mist.

 

[LordGinSama]

So power null instead of matter manipulation / Deconstruction?

 

[KingTempest]

I'd say drop the matter manip and keep deconstruction, he's clearly "uncompressing" the air attack.

 

[Eminiteable]

Uncompressing compressed air into mist wouldn't be possible with brute force would it?

 

[Xulrev]

Adding abilities to Ashura based on what's been provided seems fallible.

We know it's much stronger than his strongest attacks, I agree with ant and damage that 'far higher' seems a bit much. Perhaps simply just Higher with Ashura would be adequate to put on the profile.

The addition of anything else is based in superfluous secondary information that can be taken several ways, or guesswork trying to shoehorn supplementary evidence to fit some form of added power/ability. It's raw force based on the feats we have, until we get more feats just leave it alone with what's easily provable.

 

[Purgy]

I agree with Xulrev

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unwatch this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me if you need my help later.

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't quite see how the information that the Vivre cards is secondary information or using guess work. The site states that Zoro make the blade of Compressed Air vanish, which is something that can't be done through traditional Attack Potency. It's air, it's not something that can turn into mist or disappear via interacting with it.



Personally speaking I've always taken it as Zoro's Ashura offering him a counter measure against long ranged elemental attack, causing them to dissipate, ergo limited Power Null should fit the bill. Even if it's a "possible" he's still outright canceling and negating the attack itself.


It should be worded in his profile as "limited power nullification ( Can negate and turn air based attacks into mist. )

 

[Xulrev]

There is literally nothing on-panel whatsoever that implies Power Nullification is somehow a thing Zoro spontaneously gains.


Air slashes in One Piece can be physically overpowered and interacted with. They're tangible things. Zoro's Ashura simply overpowers Kaku's Rankyaku due to increased AP.

There's no need to overanalyze and try to incorrectly apply additional abilities where none exist. The justification for it is exceptionally suspect and ultimately weak.

 

[Eminiteable]

Well either way, if we take it just as brute force here's how it can be considered far higher:

Asura Zoro >>> Rankyaku "Amane Dachi" >> Yontoryu Zoan Kaku > Santoryu Zoro >/= Zoan Kaku

Zoro showed he was equal if not stronger than Zoan Kaku on several occasions, the only time he got overpowered badly was when Kaku started using Yontoryu, his Rankyaku "Amane Dachi" is considered far superior to himself (and Jabra who ran away when Kaku first used this move). Zoro reduced this attack to nothing and said attack scales far above base Zoro, I think far higher is more accurate considering this.

 

[LordGinSama]

Kaku launches an attack, that turns into mist the second Zoro hits it that seems self evident to me as far as his limited power nullification goes. Once again, as I said before this would only apply to air based attacks.


Jozu deflected the air slash, Zoro completely turned Kaku's into mist. There's a massive difference between the two feats, one is redirecting the trajectory of the attack while the other is turning it into a fine mist. As you said yourself, these attacks are physical and Zoro turned a physical attack into a fine mist. Which isn't exactly the most tangible substance out there, he's altering the state of the compressed air and causing it to turn into mist. Your Jozu argument falls apart here since they're very different situations.



The reasons are blatantly there, Kaku launched an attack at Zoro and Zoro altered the state of it and caused it to turn into mist. There's nothing that's wrong here unless one tries to argue that Zoro can go around negating something he doesn't have feats for. And the argument that "he's never show cased this ability before." isn't legitimate considering how often Zoro pulls out new abilities like Ashura itself.

 

[Xulrev]

Far Higher, as Ant stated, seems to imply tiers higher. No justification for that is solid.

GinSama, mist being a byproduct of highly compressed air being dispersed rapidly is....not outside the realm of real physics. Compressed air gets super cool (just grab a can of compressed air), expanding air rapidly heats if done so in a short timeframe. Being forcibly dispelled via physical force would create mist.

 

[Eminiteable]

Wouldn't Asura Zoro be a tier higher considering that scaling chain? I mean one shotting someone is considered a 7 times difference and taking into account what it did to Amane Dachi it's arguably above even that.

Also higher seems to just be used to determine if a character is higher but in the same tier according to the attack potency page, so Zoro doesn't necessarily need to be "tiers" higher to qualify, rather, a tier higher.

 

[LordGinSama]

Compressed air is cold because of Adiabatic cooling, which is caused by volume expansion. Which clearly isn't the case here, as this blast of super pressurized air isn't increasing in volume, it's flat out disappearing instead. That's ignoring the fact that compressed air isn't actually filled with air, it's filled with various gases which get released as pressure. Kaku's attack is a literal blade of air itself.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wouldn't Asura Zoro be a tier higher considering that scaling chain? I mean one shotting someone is considered a 7 times difference and taking into account what it did to Amane Dachi it's arguably above even that.

Also higher seems to just be used to determine if a character is higher but in the same tier according to the attack potency page, so Zoro doesn't necessarily need to be "tiers" higher to qualify, rather, a tier higher.

Yes, I've seen plenty of characters get "far higher" for significant amps, even though they're considered in the same tier.
It's just that the power up is so massive, that just higher doesn't quite do it justice.

 

[LordGinSama]

The 7.5 figure only applies to vs matches, so that can't be used. But I've never seen "far higher" as meaning several tiers above.

 

[Xulrev]

@GinSama

Perhaps the visualization of a vapor cone would be more apt then? Regardless of circumstance, air can indeed produce atmospheric qualities similar to mist or vapor when put to extreme conditions.

Attempting to claim Zoro can manipulate matter in some form or nullify abilities based on this one circumstance would be bizarre, ESPECIALLY considering we, the audience, still have zero clue precisely how Ashura operates in-verse even. It's one of the biggest ability mysteries to date.

 

[LordGinSama]

Conditions, meaning temperature. Zoro has no such ability with his Ashura ability as far as we know.



The fairest and most straightforward comprise I can see here is a "Higher" for Enies Lobby and the following added to his profile. "Can dissipate air based projectiles." and simply leave it at that, at the very least it should be noted in the profile.




Ashura as of Sabaody would be 3x his base form for damaging the X-29 by himself when it previously required a combined attack from Luffy, Zoro and Sanji to damage it.

 

[Purgy]

Ashura being 3x base is never stated, nor is it shown comparable to a 3x multiplier that is stated, meaning it can't be given a multiplier according to the multipliers page

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else.

 

[LordGinSama]

Combined attacks are also taken as multipliers. Character A takes the combined force of character B, C and D all of which are comparable. Character C later amps and deals damage that only a combined attack from 3 comparable characters combining their attack could accomplish.



That's a blatant 3x amp and such methods have already been accepted for other verses.

 

[Xulrev]

That's now how it works.

Me shooting two guns doesn't multiply the potency of each bullet two times over, and for the same reason we aren't going to multiply the power for Ashura.

Cin explained this very well earlier in the thread, and I feel his input is being ignored to attempt and claim it's a multiplier.

Per strict wiki rules, there's no multiplier statement, and the logic doesn't hold up for Zoro, it really shouldn't apply, agreed with Purgy

 

[Purgy]

I didn't write the multipliers page, I'm just quoting what it says, and it pretty clearly says multipliers come from statements, not reasoned from other things like you're doing.

If other verses have used that method then they need revising, either that or the standards for multipliers need changing.

 

[LordGinSama]

It's obviously not against site rules if it was accepted and approved by the literal staff members here for a different verses on the same basis. Let's not hold the verse to the highest level of scrutiny for the simple sake of being stubborn. You can quite literally take a look at the Fairy Tail profiles and you'll be taken the thread where staff, including admin approved it.



And no, that's another false comparison. Shooting two guns isn't a combined attack, it's just that. Shooting two guns, it's as simple as that and vastly different than three comparable character attacking and combining their attack against the same opponent.


The only one doing the ignoring is you, you literally ignored the fact that Cin was the one who brought the evidence for Sabaody Ashura being 3x. I'm simply basing my argument on his, which anyone has yet to counter.





It's absolutely hypocritical and a massive double standard to accept this method for one verse that's already been accepted by various staff members.

 

[Xulrev]

It's absolutely hypocritical and a massive double standard to accept this method for one verse that's already been accepted by various staff members.

No, it's holding this to the rules of the site. Other verses ignoring rules of the site doesn't mean jack to us on this thread because we didn't argue for that. Take it up with staff honestly, since that sounds fallacious

 

[Purgy]

I'm not familiar with Fairy Tail or its accepted multipliers, but as I said, if that verse is abusing that method then the verse needs revising or the multiplier standards need changing.

Standards exist to be followed, if one verse is ignoring them that doesn't mean every verse should also ignore them.

If you have an issue with how multipliers are used here, make a thread to have them changed, as it stands, we go by the Multipliers page.

 

[LordGinSama]

It's obviously not ignored if staff were present to verify said thread. Said staff members were familiar with said rule, and they still approved of the method. And with all due respect, I'm inclined to go with the words of the people who literally wrote said rule and run with site. It's an acceptable method of scaling, otherwise it wouldn't have been approved by the very people who wrote it.



I could say the same thing about your entire argument. The both of you are abusing what's written down, despite the same people who wrote it being accepting to different methods. If that's truly a hill you wish to die on then be my guest, but various staff members already approved of this method of scaling. So if you wanna change that then you can feel free to make a CRT regarding it.




I also find it funny how Purgy is abusing what's written in the page despite being on board with similar concepts in Bleach. Yhwach was never stated to multiply his power via absorbing opponents, yet it's treated as such. So I suppose it's fine as long as it applies to your vese huh?

 

[LordGinSama]

Matter of fact I'll make the thread myself to settle this. It's pretty asinine to reject this when plenty of verses already function the same, which were accepted by staff so we can put this on pause for now.

 

[Purgy]

We don't need to make the CRT, it's written on the page, your argument is based on the words of staff members that

1. You haven't proven
2. Means nothing because staff members aren't infallible and are capable of forgetting/breaking standards just like anybody else.

Baseless accusations, I didn't participate in any of the threads to have Bleach multipliers accepted, I only partook in the threads after they were accepted that involved applying them to scaling, and Yhwach absorbing people and adding their power to his own is a little different than what you're arguing with Zoro.

Feel free to make the thread, I have zero issues with the standards changing.

 

[Xulrev]

This is getting somewhat petty and puerile and derailing the thread; if Cin wants to comment again, perhaps someone like damage, we could move forward.

 

[LordGinSama]

Washing my hands of this topic until the blatant elephant in the room is addressed.

 

[LordGinSama]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/multipliers-clarifications-and-regulations.109260/

 

[Damage3245]

Ashura being 3x base is never stated, nor is it shown comparable to a 3x multiplier that is stated, meaning it can't be given a multiplier according to the multipliers page

I'm in agreement.

I think the general consensus is to remove the mutlipler and replace it with "higher with Asura."

We just need to figure out what the rest of the new ratings will be.