One Piece: Asura's multiplier

[XDragnoir]

So, i read Zoro vs Kaku again (chapter 417 mainly). and i didn't see anything about multipliers, so, what was used in the previous threads to have the multiplier accepted?

Afaik, the main base to it was the number of swords (visuals aren't accepted as reason to multipliers), but it isn't consistent (another important factor to accept multipliers) to when zoro is using less than one sword (i.e his Ichitoryu should have 1/3 of his strength but that does not happen).

 

[Damage3245]

I think those are some good points. I'd also be curious to know the original reasons.

 

[XDragnoir]

Just to add, someone once said the logic was:

Zoro was fighting Kaku on equal grounds, and Asura was able to oneshot him and his strongest attack. Idk where a multiplier would be needed to all of that to happen.

There is also the fact Zoro never used Asura post timeskip, but that does not mean anything to it's tier post timeskip tier, since Zoro's fights so far were against fodder.

 

[Eminiteable]

I agree with downgrading Asura just to far higher since the site doesn't accept multipliers via visuals.

Can't be too sure what the original justification was, it seemed most just accepted it as fact when it was applied to his post time-skip page.

(i.e his Ichitoryu should have 1/3 of his strength but that does not happen).

Although this is untrue.

 

[XDragnoir]

Although this is untrue.

Well, maybe not 1/3 if we take nitoryu as being 377, ichitoryu would need to be 188 and santoryu 564, but as you know, the gap between each style, and the gap from Zoro to others, mainly Luffy and Sanji, isn't that big. I think the best would be having G3, G2, DJ and Asura in the 420 range

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If no one brings any evidence for an actual number multiplier then I'm fine with changing it.

 

[Eminiteable]

would be having G3, G2, DJ and Asura in the 420 range

Huh? Zoro was already in that range based off his own feats, hell even pre-timeskip while Luffy and Sanji were using diable Jambe and Gears Zoro stayed base.

Well, maybe not 1/3 if we take nitoryu as being 377, ichitoryu would need to be 188 and santoryu 564

I will make a thread soon clearing up the scaling for Zoro, I don't know if 1/3 is completely true but I know there is a visible gap in power between his styles, this will need to be discussed.

 

[Eminiteable]

The only justification I can even think off is in sabaody where the monster trio needed to combine their attacks to harm the pacifista, yet Asura on its own could harm it a comparable amount if not more.

Although again that's not justification for a multiplier increase its just one instance.

 

[XDragnoir]

Huh? Zoro was already in that range based off his own feats, hell even pre-timeskip while Luffy and Sanji were using diable Jambe and Gears Zoro stayed base.


I will make a thread soon clearing up the scaling for Zoro, I don't know if 1/3 is completely true but I know there is a visible gap in power between his styles, this will need to be discussed.

No, Zoro is a 377 character, what he did in the 420 range?

There IS a gap, it isn't a ridiculous gap like 188 to 564, his main thing is 3 swords, he can't use all his power with 1 or 2, but that does not mean there is an actual tier change based in the number of swords alone. The point is exactly that, to Asura be a times 3, ichitoryu should be 1/3 of santoryu, but Zoro does not work like that.

 

[Eminiteable]

Fujitora, Denjiro, Kawamatsu. And every 377 megaton character he has fought was one shot, I think it's absurd to suggest Zoro is only in the 420 range with an unknown power up when he's already got plenty of feats to put him there in base.

But either way this isn't relevant to this topic so I'll drop it.

 

[XDragnoir]

If you think Zoro should be 420 by default, do a CRT about it, currently he isn't.

But anyway, everyone seems to agree the multiplier for Asura should be removed, it will only change Zoro keys post TS, and only Enies Lobby key and Thriller Bark key for pre TS, the problem is that i have no idea what should be TB Zoro and others base stats without this multiplier, currently, Pacifista scale to SA Moria, and it was damaged by Asura, making the Monster Trio 1/3 of Pacifista's tier, so i think the new tier would be 7C+, but the power ups would still be L7B, right?

Or maybe remove the L7B, since everyone attacked the Pacifista, it seems strange to scale the trio to it like if they have defeated it alone.

 

[Eminiteable]

That was actually a thread i was working on before the forum move started. Thriller Bark needs revisions. In fact Enies Lobby - Sabaody needs serious revisions.

Also working on the Zoro revised scaling now, making a sandbox for it.

 

[KingTempest]

Actually, Zoro's moves are kinda weird.
With this statement

When zoro is using less than one sword (i.e his Ichitoryu should have 1/3 of his strength but that does not happen).

You're not wrong, maybe it does.
(Ho means both phoenix and cannon).
Ittoryu uses 36 pound cannon pre-timeskip and 360 pound cannon post-timeskip where he throws 1 air slash.
Nitoryu uses 72 pound cannon pre-timeskip, then 720 pound cannon post-timeskip where he throws 2 air slashes.
Santoryu uses 108 pound cannon pre-timeskip, then 1080 pound cannon post-timeskip where he throws 3 air slashes.

His explanation for it makes sense for it to be a multiplier (maybe it's a stretch, maybe it's not, I say it makes sense though).
1 lifetime, 36 torments. 2 lifetimes, 72 torments. 3 lifetimes, 108 torments.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, yeah, he creates one air slash with each attack, but we do not treat 3 attacks of a 300MT character to do 900MT damage, for example

 

[LordGinSama]

That depends actually, if it's several or combined attacks we take them as multiplier, at least from my experience in FT threads. That being said I do agree with Zoro's sword styles being portrayed as multipliers, given all the one shots and vast amps each one gets.



Base Zoro is above 377- equal to 420 Megatons. Nito doubles, Santoryu triples. Given all the context and feats Zoro has for these I'd say the 2x multiplier from Nito and 3x for Santoryu should work.



Character A tanks two attacks, one from Character B and another from character C. Character C and B are comparable, so the durability of character A would be 2x.


If it's aimed at the same spot then I'd argue for that multiplier legit.



Btw I'm pretty sure Ashura is stated make Zoro 3x stronger according to a Databook iirc.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't like FT, so i will not say anything.

So, not only you are saying Zoro is 420 normally, but that he is 3x420 with santoryu? Well, gladly, a multiplier needs to be stated directly, otherwise it isn't a valid one.

No, a 500MT character can tank even more than 2 attacks from a 300MT character, and if it is the same verse, it would just put A above B and C, not even in a higher value.

We don't use multipliers from databooks, i am sure of that.

 

[LordGinSama]

1: Can relate, doesn't mean it isn't valid however.



2: Not really? Smh with these accusations, i gave both figures as I'm not sure to which he scales to. And the Santoryu is valid, and multipliers don't need to be directly stated. As I said earlier with my analogy, we accepted those type of multipliers. Literally look at any FT profile, it's a valid method and I'm gonna use a phrase you like to use a lot. Don't like it? Oh well make a CRT about it.


3: Irrelevant and not what I said, I made no mention of a 500+ Megatons character. And no, those are combined attacks, two 7-A characters attacking at once and combining their attack would make it 2x as strong, character A tanked said attack so his durability must be 2x their AP. Once again this method is valid and is used on several profiles, if you have an issue with it you can feel free to make a CRT about it.

 

[XDragnoir]

2: Not really? Smh with these accusations, i gave both figures as I'm not sure to which he scales to. And the Santoryu is valid, and multipliers don't need to be directly stated. As I said earlier with my analogy, we accepted those type of multipliers. Literally look at any FT profile, it's a valid method and I'm gonna use a phrase you like to use a lot. Don't like it? Oh well make a CRT about it.

So, you said he is 3x377?

I was literally said in a CRT yesterday that a multiplier needs to be stated. I understand absolutely nothing about FT, so even if i look at any profile, i have no idea what would anything there mean.

And please, explain why the Santoryu multiplier is valid.

3: Irrelevant and not what I said, I made no mention of a 500+ Megatons character. And no, those are combined attacks, two 7-A characters attacking at once and combining their attack would make it 2x as strong, character A tanked said attack so his durability must be 2x their AP. Once again this method is valid and is used on several profiles, if you have an issue with it you can feel free to make a CRT about it.

The 500MT was an example where tanking many attacks does not mean a multplier (it rarely does, actually). You never said the two characters would be attacking at the same time and combining their attacks you said "Character A tanks two attacks" there is no way i would interpret "two attacks" as "two attacks that fused into a single one", you even said "if aimed in the same spot", so no, it could be what you meant, but it wasn't what you said.

On a side note, i really dislike "go make a CRT", but people tend to say that to me, so i started saying that to others. It makes sense, tho, because afaik, everything here needs a CRT to be accepted.

 

[LordGinSama]

1: Because he scales to either one of those figures, it's the explanation of the argument. There's nothing to "debunk" so this part is irrelevant to this discussion.


2: No, they don't. Mind telling me who told you that nonsense? Because there are dozens of profiles without stated multiplier, FT is just one of the many examples. In all of my time of being here I've never seen "needs to be directly stated" to be accepted which is what your entire argument relies heavily on.



3: I don't need to, someone above already posted the evidence which you blatantly ignored the rest. He replied with several paragraphs, you replied with one with no citation nor evidence. I mean really, you yourself haven't debunked anything let alone provide proper citation to your claims.



4: I suppose you missed the "Character B and C are comparable", not my fault your reading comprehension isn't suffice. There's two characters attacking someone, said two characters have the same AP so that's 2 7-A attacks from two different characters attacking a singular target. Are you not familiar with psychics or how basic enegry transversal works??? Character A would have durability twice that of each singular character attacking them, he tanked an attack from 2 other 7-A's, ergo his durability would be 2x since that's what they attacked him with. FYI; repeating your argument doesn't magically become better by repeating yourself like a broken logic. Quite literally everything you say here is debunked by said method being on several profiles.


5: Okay????

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean I guess I understand the idea behind 3 swords being 3x stronger than one sword, but doesn’t Zoro’s Ittoryu show feats comparable to his Santoryu a lot of the time, Shishi Sonson one shot Mr 1 While Santoryu couldn’t do anything to him, not sure Zoro’s sword techniques scale that way, I’m willing to believe that the 180 Pound Ho is 3x stronger than the 36 Pound Ho

 

[LordGinSama]

ShiShi Sonson is one of Zoro's finishing moves so that's probably exempt since he also utilizes Busoshoku Haki in that particular move.



Edit: Kenpachi from Bleach while using Kendo is a 2x multiplier for the same reason why Zoro's would.

 

[XDragnoir]

2: No, they don't. Mind telling me who told you that nonsense? Because there are dozens of profiles without stated multiplier, FT is just one of the many examples. In all of my time of being here I've never seen "needs to be directly stated" to be accepted which is what your entire argument relies heavily on.


3: I don't need to, someone above already posted the evidence which you blatantly ignored the rest. He replied with several paragraphs, you replied with one with no citation nor evidence. I mean really, you yourself haven't debunked anything let alone provide proper citation to your claims.



4: I suppose you missed the "Character B and C are comparable", not my fault your reading comprehension isn't suffice. There's two characters attacking someone, said two characters have the same AP so that's 2 7-A attacks from two different characters attacking a singular target. Are you not familiar with psychics or how basic enegry transversal works??? Character A would have durability twice that of each singular character attacking them, he tanked an attack from 2 other 7-A's, ergo his durability would be 2x since that's what they attacked him with. FYI; repeating your argument doesn't magically become better by repeating yourself like a broken logic. Quite literally everything you say here is debunked by said method being on several profiles.

2: Wrath of Itachi, here, i also read something about that in a DBZ CRT where the SSJs multipliers were rejected for being from the databooks and not the manga.

3: I mean, the only thing i am trying to change here is Asura current tier, if Zoro is 3x or 2x 377 or in the 420 range i really don't care, my only problem was Asura, and it seems Emini (who plans to revise Zoro), Griffin and possibly Damage agreed with Asura's multiplier being removed due to lack of statements and feats that indicate a 3x multiplier.

4. Ehhh, them being comparable should mean they combined their 2 attacks into one? If that is the case, yeah, my bad on that, my comprehension is indeed lacking sometimes due to English being my 3rd language.

But, thinking about it, if multipliers do not need to be stated to be accepted, doesn't that turn Asura into a valid multiplier?

 

[CinCameron20]

This argument about "1/3 for Ittoryu" is pretty ridiculous considering Zoro's body does not change whether he is using 1, 2 or 3 swords. He can still use both hands (and has) for 1-sword attacks. Not to mention some of his Ittroyu attacks have helped him defeat characters who could tank his Nitoryu and Santoryu attacks. His motions between Nitoryu and Santoryu are interchangeable and the only difference is that he is attacking another location with another sword. The only case where this should matter is obviously his air-slashes since Shusui allowed him to fuse all 3 air-slashes together into a single more powerful one. Or an attack where all 3 blades converge onto the same location and apply more pressure than a single-arm swing. The only case that supports the latter here is Zoro's named attacks where he strikes with all 3 blades at once.

The thing about Ashura is that Zoro acquires 4 extra limbs and 2 heads (Still via unknown means). Ignoring the heads because they physically can not strike the same place simultaneously, Zoro having 6 arms as opposed to 2 arms strike the same location simultaneously is obviously going to triple the damage. To be fair though, a 3x multiplier for a form that has only been shown lasting for a SINGLE attack is not going to drastically change the outcome of a versus fight whether Zoro was winning or not before resorting to it.

• Logically having extra body parts that are the same strength as the original will increase the damage by an equal value. 6 arms = 2 arms*3...

Now talking about Zoro's scaling. He's >377 MT. He is NOT 420 MT in ANY case whatsoever. Kawamatsu was not trying to kill Zoro and intended to stop his fight (I mean if you really want to try to scale Zoro to someone who might end up 6-C over him stopping one casual attack... ok). Fujitora has been casual for most of Dressrosa because he doesn't support Doflamingo.

I feel the need to constantly remind everyone who discusses OP scaling that HAKI does not factor into the stats unless stated otherwise, or that is the only AP feat for the character (I.E. Gear 3rd Luffy Post TS, Bellamy, Gear 4th Luffy, and almost no-one else). Zoro is 377 MT with Nitoryu AND Santoryu because guess what, he scales slightly above Pica.

• WITH Haki and named attacks, his attacks are obviously stronger, as he one-shot Pica and Killer, who each could challenge Zoro with his standard fighting capabilities. This is not reflected in his AP/Dura, and all Haki users in general are under the assumption that they are an undetermined value higher than their stats.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with Cin that the 3x multiplier still works perfectly for Pre Time Skip Zoro, but the Post Time Skip add should be left as unknown, as Zoro could grow more arms or less.

 

[CinCameron20]

Since the common belief is that Ashura comes from Zoro wielding Sandai Kitetsu, the "transformation" is likely the same until proven otherwise. Making it "unknown" under an assumption that something has changed is something I disagree with since there's nothing to back this up, and we should treat Ashura as we always have: "3x Multiplier, and only effective for one named attack" since there's nothing to suggest otherwise currently.

It's a shame that Zoro has not gotten an opponent that could force him to go all out since Luffy's getting the big-bad every arc (Granted, Doffy/Cracker/Kata would all whoop him). I was hoping Zoro would fight Jack, but considering the latter just got face-rolled and needs time to recover his injuries, this would be very unlikely. I doubt a Tobi-Roppo is going to force Zoro or Sanji for that matter to unleash everything. But I don't see either Sanji/Zoro defeating King or even Queen unless they are made to work together in a 2v1 situation (which, come on... Sanji and Zoro working together for the first time since the Fox Pirates? Please happen).

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree with Cin that the 3x multiplier still works perfectly for Pre Time Skip Zoro, but the Post Time Skip add should be left as unknown, as Zoro could grow more arms or less.

If a multiplier does not need to be stated, why we don't ive a times 3 to G3 as well? It has the same or even better feats than Asura, pre timeskip.

 

[KingTempest]

If a multiplier does not need to be stated, why we don't ive a times 3 to G3 as well? It has the same or even better feats than Asura, pre timeskip.

What feats?

 

[CinCameron20]

If a multiplier does not need to be stated, why we don't ive a times 3 to G3 as well? It has the same or even better feats than Asura, pre timeskip.

Gear 3rd Luffy is already stronger than Ashura Zoro pre time-skip given that Zoro only beat someone about half as strong as Lucci.

Post time-skip they all got stronger on their own, so there's no reason to suggest Gear 3rd Luffy is stronger than Ashura Zoro post timeskip

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not so sure that simply having additional limbs would multiply your attack potency in that way.

Plenty of characters in fiction have multiple limbs, or the ability to grow multiple limbs, but we don't give them multipliers for the amount of limbs they possess.

 

[CinCameron20]

Tbh, I'm mixed about the downgrade for Asura, but you are correct. The only real evidence is that Zoro went from struggling in a high-diff fight to suddenly one-shotting Kaku, but now that I think about it, that's a typical Shounen troupe for a character to often one-shot an opponent upon revealing a transformation.

We could change it to "far higher" instead, but I'm neutral leaning towards keeping the 3x multiplier.

And to make it clear again, I'm totally against having Santoryu scale 1.5x stronger than Nitoryu Zoro for reasons already stated.

 

[XDragnoir]

What feats?

Base Luffy wasn't able to bypass Lucci's Tekkai, much less when he used his Hybrid form, then G2 started to damage him, in fact, there was blood in most attacks during G2, and then against G3 we have Lucci saying "i am going to lose my consciousness", Kaku wasn't using Tekkai against Asura.

In Sabaody, Luffy was the final punch, so if we do a small power hierarchy for the 3 last attacks, we have G3 > Asura > DJ.

It seems strange to treat Asura as the only multiplier when there is superiority of G3 in the 2 times Asura was used, G2 and DJ would probably be a times 2 btw, since Sanji heavily damaged Jabra through Tekkai, which was blocking all of his normal attacks, same for G2 and Lucci (DJ damaged Jabra much more than G2 damaged Lucci tho, if we are talking about proportion).

And i know G3 is already stronger than Asura Pre-TS, but if we are going to keep the times 3 for post TS Zoro, it makes no sense to not do the same to the others, it seems we aren't going to keep the multiplier tho, so all i can say is that i am confused as hell.

Also, i forgot to link this page when Lord Gin asked who told me a multiplier needs to be stated to be applied, my bad.

 

[Omimi]

we use databook case by case and i think DBZ multiplier was not accepted since its inconsistent/ larger multiplier

 

[Eminiteable]

In Sabaody, Luffy was the final punch, so if we do a small power hierarchy for the 3 last attacks, we have G3 > Asura > DJ.

Disagree with this: during sabaody Base Zoro, G2 Luffy and Diable Jambe Sanji all attacked the pacifista in a combined attack to damage it, showing they're equals (diable Jambe on its own couldn't harm the pacifista).

In thriller bark it was a similar case of Sanji using diable Jambe on Oars and dealing less damage than Zoro in base.

The final attack doesn't dictate that it was the strongest since they did say "it will only need one more hit to take it down" so really there is no evidence of which was greater only that both Asura and Gear Third could harm it.

 

[XDragnoir]

My point was that G3 is stronger, why are talking about DJ being weaker like if that even mattered? I never said DJ was comparable to Asura. DJ made the Pacifista bleed, and DJ strength is that it does internal damage, anyway, so "couldn't harm" isn't right.

Flambage Shot is > Mouton Shot, due to being a DJ move, instead of a DJ upgraded move, so the combined attack at the start does not mean much.

You are talking like if Asura and G3 were the important attacks, adding information about "how Diable Jambe is weaker than Zoro in base", but we know by EL that the gap from the monster trio to the others is really big, and Sanji damaged a Pacifista that had mostly suffered damage from the others, while Asura didn't do any notable damage to a Pacifista that had been weakened by Sanji and the others. Franky said "one more attack" two times, one before Asura and one after Asura.

 

[Eminiteable]

My point was that G3 is stronger, why are talking about DJ being weaker like if that even mattered? I never said DJ was comparable to Asura. DJ made the Pacifista bleed, and DJ strength is that it does internal damage, anyway, so "couldn't harm" isn't right.

The DJ never made The Pacifista bleed, we see later against a new pacifista that Sanji did no damage to it with his diable Jambe when he was alone. It was brought up to show Those three characters at that level couldn't harm a pacifista alone.

Flambage Shot is > Mouton Shot, due to being a DJ move, instead of a DJ upgraded move, so the combined attack at the start does not mean much.

Is there any proof there is notable difference in power level between techniques? Because I don't think there is.

Only Robin and Nami damaged the Pacifista beforehand and it was done via using its own laser against it and passing electricity through it. I'm saying they're the only two attacks to harm the pacifista so they're the only ones that should individually scale. There's not enough information to determine which is stronger between gear third and Asura from the scene alone. However, we do know the Vivre cards for pre-timeskip say they're both equal and we know Zoro was injured at this point.

So yeah for sabaody scaling I don't see why Gear Third would be proof of a greater increase than Asura.

 

[RoyGundam]

Shi-Shi Son-Son is one of Zoro's strongest attacks - is Ittoryu Iai

more swords =/= more power

 

[Eminiteable]

Shishi Sonson in the pre-timeskip was via haki in the pre-timeskip, which is why it's stronger.

 

[RoyGundam]

Shishi Sonson in the pre-timeskip was via haki in the pre-timeskip, which is why it's stronger.

That is an interesting perspective. And technically Zoro was using Ryou in that

 

[LordGinSama]

Not really much of a perspective as much as it is canon fact, iirc the new Databook even stated that Zoro utilized low tier Busoshoku Haki for that particular move.

 

[Ryuga21]

I always thought that Ashura guarantees more lethality than attack power itself. Anyway, I'm neutral but I think it's strange to guarantee a multiplier to a character only because he grow extra-parts of his body. Cracker Biscuit Soldier can create up to a thousand arms if I'm not mistaken, he would'nt gained a 1000x multiplier based on that alone.