Kishin Seiken (Demonic Sword) Multiplier

[WindyAttack]

I believe we should have at least a 3x multiplier for Demonic Holy Sword.

Since it’s stated to be Gun’s strongest attack, and we know Gun has knowledge of CQC because he has combat ability on par with UI Daniel, who himself knows CQC.

This should be consistent because it’s stated again and again for both Gun Park and UI Daniel that they know all martial arts and have already mastered them. By the time this statement was made, CQC had already been introduced, so it should be inclusive of that as well.

And since CQC is already accepted as a 3x multiplier, this should apply to Demonic Holy Sword too, considering it’s directly stated to be above Gun’s other attacks.

Now this should be consistent, since other Kings’ attacks like Jinrang’s or Taesoo Ma’s copy were tanked by Paecheon with literally zero visible damage, while Kishin Seiken made him cough up blood and sent him flying into a faraway wall, even making him nearly lose consciousness. So it was something close to a one-shot.

Bonus point: I believe Feint and Counter should also be at least a 3–5x multiplier, since it’s stated that it multiplies the attack many times over. This should be consistent, as Yujae believes Feint and Counter could most likely knock out Jaegyeon Na in a single attack.

Now, I believe Death Hand and Death Kick should also receive a multiplier on par with Feint and Counter, around 3x or even a little higher, like 4x–5x, since narratively they are stronger than 2T Unique Skills because they are 3T Unique Skills.

This should be more consistent because it’s stated that Yujae, through training, became stronger and a monster by developing Death Hand. On top of that, it’s also stated that Jaegyeon overcame his own limits by developing Death Kick, which would make his previous limit, Feint and Counter, inferior to his current 3T skill.

This should be further consistent since Yujae couldn’t defeat Jaegyeon with Feint and Counter, while Jaegyeon was using Death Kick, making it clearly superior to it.


Agree: @Aksh_sky @WindyAttack @CatLover313 (Only Agrees with Feint And Counter Being a 3x multipler) @Pyro9278 (Same As Cat)

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[WindyAttack]

@CatLover313 @Aksh_sky @Viott Opinion on this?

 

[Aksh_sky]

Idk if multipliers can get accepted like ts in vsbw but if it does then I agree. Btw Jaegyeon Na and Yujae's feint and counter is also a multiplier since it's stated to increase AP by many times.

U can change the OP and add ts point too since i believe Jaegyeon scales to or above Johan in terms of AP and Yujae's feint and counter would scale to 0.6 tons via that.

Even if we say that Yujae cannot counter death kick or that Jaeg doesn't scale about Johan in terms of AP, but awakened Jaeg deffinately does scales to it and awakened Yujae can theoretically counter awakened Jaeg.

 

[WindyAttack]

Idk if multipliers can get accepted like ts in vsbw but if it does then I agree. Btw Jaegyeon Na and Yujae's feint and counter is also a multiplier since it's stated to increase AP by many times.

U can change the OP and add ts point too since i believe Jaegyeon scales to or above Johan in terms of AP and Yujae's feint and counter would scale to 0.6 tons via that.

Even if we say that Yujae cannot counter death kick or that Jaeg doesn't scale about Johan in terms of AP, but awakened Jaeg deffinately does scales to it and awakened Yujae can theoretically counter awakened Jaeg.

Hmm

 

[WindyAttack]

Bump

 

[Aksh_sky]

Bump

You've made it today nly, why are u bumping it already. Ur supposed to bump ever next day...or I think maybe even everyday...idk, but the only one ik that is ur supposed to bump ur calcs in calc eval thread every fortnight.

 

[CatLover313]

@CatLover313 @Aksh_sky @Viott Opinion on this?

Just to let you know, I didn't get any notifications and had to look at the verse threads to see this.

Disagree with Kishin Seiken being 3x. Gun probably knows about CQC, but it doesn't mean he actually has CQC in his arsenal, especially since he's never shown it. Can't even use the UI Daniel instance as the first time he used CQC was in the 1A arc, and there's no evidence he used it in his first fight against Gun.

Agree with Feint and Counter being 3x due to the Many Times over statement.

 

[Kakistan]

Same reasons as CatLover. Also, as for the AP difference between Daniel's copies, the two you showed were when Daniel was initially in the middle of holding back his strength so that he could use the Strategy. Of course, Kishin Seiken is definitely stronger (given Gitae's acknowledgement of it), but you can't attribute the AP difference to a multiplier.

Though, I think we should add Death Kick/Hand as a 3x-5x as well due to it being far stronger than Feint & Counter. (I'm leaning to 5x given it's heavily more potent.)

 

[Pyro9278]

I am somewhat skeptical that Gun has mastered all the martial arts to the point of saying he "has mastered the CQC" when it is really implausible in his character, we have never seen him use it nor many other techniques that this should involve. There may be knowledge concerning it, yes, but this does not imply there must be a connection between the CQC multiplier and the Demon Sword.

What I can come to think of is that the Demon Sword has some amplifier of its own from Damage Boost (which if it does, only the profile is so outdated that it doesn’t reflect any of that). And in any case this amplifier can be applied to both Gun and Daniel, who has repeatedly shown he uses it, and also to Johan, who must have copied it.

Now regarding the multiplier from Feint & Counter, I think it makes sense, it should have at least a 2x and because Death Kick and Death Hand are superior to this they should have at least a 3x. Should only be applicable in attack speed and AP.

 

[WindyAttack]

Just to let you know, I didn't get any notifications and had to look at the verse threads to see this.

Disagree with Kishin Seiken being 3x. Gun probably knows about CQC, but it doesn't mean he actually has CQC in his arsenal, especially since he's never shown it. Can't even use the UI Daniel instance as the first time he used CQC was in the 1A arc, and there's no evidence he used it in his first fight against Gun.

Agree with Feint and Counter being 3x due to the Many Times over statement.

I've already justified this via Guns skills being on par with UI Daniel logically if UI Daniel and Gun are on the same level of Skills and it's stated narratively that UI Daniel has perfect experiences meaning all experiences in this context thus building up consistency to them knowing and mastering all martial arts

Also Gun and UI Daniel are both stated multiple times to know all martial arts + having masterd them

 

[WindyAttack]

Same reasons as CatLover. Also, as for the AP difference between Daniel's copies, the two you showed were when Daniel was initially in the middle of holding back his strength so that he could use the Strategy. Of course, Kishin Seiken is definitely stronger (given Gitae's acknowledgement of it), but you can't attribute the AP difference to a multiplier.

Though, I think we should add Death Kick/Hand as a 3x-5x as well due to it being far stronger than Feint & Counter. (I'm leaning to 5x given it's heavily more potent.)

I've already given 2 types of reasoning for that it's fine if you disagree with the first one but I'm not really seeing any new refutations to Them knowing all martial arts thus that being inclusive of CQC

Also I'm pretty sure this is a argument from silence

And yea this is also wrong since holding back in this context is in reference to Daniel intentionally not using his full extent of copys that doesn't mean he's pulling his punches or something this is evident with Kitae vs Daniel where he was using weaker copys while holding back and using stronger copys when he gets fullly locked in

 

[WindyAttack]

I am somewhat skeptical that Gun has mastered all the martial arts to the point of saying he "has mastered the CQC" when it is really implausible in his character, we have never seen him use it nor many other techniques that this should involve. There may be knowledge concerning it, yes, but this does not imply there must be a connection between the CQC multiplier and the Demon Sword.

What I can come to think of is that the Demon Sword has some amplifier of its own from Damage Boost (which if it does, only the profile is so outdated that it doesn’t reflect any of that). And in any case this amplifier can be applied to both Gun and Daniel, who has repeatedly shown he uses it, and also to Johan, who must have copied it.

Now regarding the multiplier from Feint & Counter, I think it makes sense, it should have at least a 2x and because Death Kick and Death Hand are superior to this they should have at least a 3x. Should only be applicable in attack speed and AP.

Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he doesn't have it it's narratively implied and stated and is consistent with the narrative

A author logically cannot show Gun doding every single type of Martial arts due to story concern also this is a argument from ignorance

 

[Pyro9278]

Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he doesn't have it it's narratively implied and stated and is consistent with the narrative

A author logically cannot show Gun doding every single type of Martial arts due to story concern also this is a argument from ignorance

It's not ignorance; I'm saying it's implausible for the character. I doubt PTJ was speaking semantically when they said Gun "knows and masters all martial arts," including CQC.

 

[CatLover313]

I've already justified this via Guns skills being on par with UI Daniel logically if UI Daniel and Gun are on the same level of Skills and it's stated narratively that UI Daniel has perfect experiences meaning all experiences in this context thus building up consistency to them knowing and mastering all martial arts

Also Gun and UI Daniel are both stated multiple times to know all martial arts + having masterd them

The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl. Unlike UI Daniel who contains multiple statements from different fighters about his skill prowess. But I won’t argue for that and it can be something staff can ask more on.

Assuming it is true though, granting Gun theoretically "knows" CQC, that only gets him the foundation, and the panels that were used in the 3x CQC CRT distinguished baseline CQC and the upgraded version, which is explicitly tied to a personally trained and customized style built on top of that foundation ("depending on the styles you create"). Manager Kim has his own custom CQC that he made which is taught to Warren so it’s fair for them to get the 3x multiplier. So what needs to be proven is that Guns mastery in CQC is high enough to justify a Unique CQC for the multiplier which results in your Kishin argument and said evidence besides that one quote is very very lacking.

Ultimately though, really seems like that one quote of knowing every martial arts without demonstrating it is hard carrying this CRT and seems more like a staff decision thing rather than anything anyone can argue ngl.

 

[Pyro9278]

The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl.

To be fair, Gun didn't even teach Lil Daniel everything he knows, or if he did, then Gun is implying that he doesn't master all martial arts as he seems to. Since Gun refers to "all techniques under the sun," and the Rising Sun is Japan, he's only referring to martial arts originating in Japan, or at least from the Yamazaki Clan.

 

[CatLover313]

Since Gun refers to "all techniques under the sun," and the Rising Sun is Japan, he's only referring to martial arts originating in Japan, or at least from the Yamazaki Clan.

dang, didn’t think we’d be metaphor interpreting now

 

[Pyro9278]

dang, didn’t think we’d be metaphor interpreting now

That's what I think, and it's quite logical to assume that he had mastered all styles of Karate along with other Japanese martial arts.

 

[JirensMom]

I agree with the OVT multiplier, but not the kishin seiken multiplier.