One Piece: Asura's multiplier

[LordGinSama]

Btw Zoro should get limited durability negation for his Blazing Dragon technique, since the flames spawn from within the opponent. Obviously he needs to cut you first but as soon as he does flames spawn in the opponent.

 

[KingTempest]

I like how the Monster Trio all has fire moves

 

[CinCameron20]

@XDragnoir - There's no where that suggests that Ashura Zoro > G3 Luffy pre time-skip. And G3 Luffy does not get a 3x multiplier because there's no logical way to suggest this.

If you want to get technical:

In terms of raw power: Gear 3rd Luffy > Zoan Lucci = Gear 2nd Luffy > Seimei Kikan Zoan Lucci (speed/mobility oriented) > Base Lucci > Base Zoro =/> Base Kaku

(And since I wanna throw Zoan Kaku in, but can't relate him to Base Lucci in any way): Ashura Zoro >> Zoan Kaku > Base Zoro =/> Base Kaku

No where in this power-scaling suggests Ashura Zoro is even comparable to Gear 3rd Luffy or Zoan Lucci. In fact, Usopp and Luffy were both adamant that if Luffy could not defeat Lucci, the rest of the SHs, even together, would also fall--which obviously includes Zoro. We even account this for the scaling in Lucci's description.
----

@LordGinSama - The funny thing is that Zoro's Ittoryu techniques are often his most powerful base techniques due to Shi-shi Son Song, and Hiryu: Kaen (The only outlier obviously being 36-pound canon due to being the weakest). He has one-shot opponents who could tank his Nitoryu/Santoryu attacks with them, which completely deletes this whole "Scale Santoryu to be 3x Ittoryu" argument from earlier

I'm wondering if we will see him take out his next opponent with another Ittoryu technique. Still want him to be forced into using Ashura at least.

 

[CinCameron20]

I always thought that Ashura guarantees more lethality than attack power itself. Anyway, I'm neutral but I think it's strange to guarantee a multiplier to a character only because he grow extra-parts of his body. Cracker Biscuit Soldier can create up to a thousand arms if I'm not mistaken, he would'nt gained a 1000x multiplier based on that alone.

Sadly, since the fight against the original Biscuit was off-panel, it's impossible to say how well Luffy was faring before the soldier began adding limbs. He actually was able to clash against the Biscuit's sword and forced him to drop Pound before the Biscuit got 3 sets of arms and began overpowering Luffy.

Also, the Thousand part is definitely an exaggeration, and misunderstood, as the "Thousand Arms" is supposed to refer to Cracker's ability to generate an (exaggeratedly) large number of "arms" or "soldiers" (Either way we never see a biscuit with more than 3-sets of arms, and we only see Cracker ever spawn like 8 or 9 soldiers. Granted, he had weaker ones scattered throughout Wholecake).

 

[Damage3245]

So it looks like everyone is general in agreement on removing the current Asura multiplier.

Whose profile besides Zoro will need updating?

 

[CinCameron20]

I think Zoro might be the only one affected by this, because the only other character that even mentions Ashura Zoro is Zoan Rob Lucci, but it does not affect his tier.

 

[Eminiteable]

No it does in fact effect a lot of tiers, specifically nearly every sabaody - thriller bark tier.

 

[KingTempest]

@XDragnoir - There's no where that suggests that Ashura Zoro > G3 Luffy pre time-skip. And G3 Luffy does not get a 3x multiplier because there's no logical way to suggest this.

If you want to get technical:

In terms of raw power: Gear 3rd Luffy > Zoan Lucci = Gear 2nd Luffy > Seimei Kikan Zoan Lucci (speed/mobility oriented) > Base Lucci > Base Zoro =/> Base Kaku

Yellow Databook says Luffy = Zoro. I don't know which forms, but it just says Luffy = Zoro

 

[RoyGundam]

Poor Zoro ... he got a badass transformation but it looks like such a pain to draw that Oda basically gave up on it

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah databook yellow does state Zoro = Luffy post Enies lobby.

The Vivre cards reaffirm this at Sabaody with Luffy = Zoro

And another one for Alabasta states the same thing (forget the name)

 

[KingTempest]

Gear 2nd Luffy fought Pacifista alongside base Zoro, then Gear 3rd landed the final hit after Asura... idk man.

Also, how is Doriki working in the scaling?

 

[Eminiteable]

Revising it since by site laws we shouldn't be using it linear like we are, already worked on a draft and will turn it into a blog as soon as possible since it's sort of required for this CRT to go through (mainly for thriller bark and Sabaody but those arcs needs somewhere else to scale too which is Enies Lobby so the revisions are all included)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I know I'm late, but I agree with removing the multiplier for Ashura since it seems kinda baseless from what I gathered.

Also I agree with @Eminiteable about Zoro scaling, but that's not too important yet. I'll voice my opinion more when he posts his CRT.

 

[LordGinSama]

Iirc there's still a Databook reference for Zoro's Ashura. Last I recall someone posted it in a discussion thread before the site move but that's lost now.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Oh that would be extremely helpful if someone could find it. I'll try looking for it too.

 

[LordGinSama]

I think Emin is the one who orginally posted, me and OP argued about this months ago and someone posted the 3x databook scan.

 

[Purgy]

@Eminiteable I know of the statement that says Zoro and Luffy have similar battle power from databook yellow, but doesn't the Vivre Card databook also state Zoro's strength is second to Luffy's?

And the Vivre Card databook is more recent, it kinda conflicts with the other statement.

 

[Eminiteable]

No I covered this a while ago (old thread, I think it was before the forum move so it should still be there), that was apparently a mistranslation.

船長に次ぐ戦闘能力の高さ敵 組しきの二番手を仕留める

"Highest fighting capability next to the captain."

This only applies to his pre-timeskip Vivre card and is consistent with the other Databooks, and as ive found out recently the Vivre cards actually get updated on the one piece website to correct misinformation. This was never corrected.

 

[Purgy]

Old threads don't exist anymore unless they were archived I believe

I've seen two translations of it and both say Zoro is the second strongest of the crew behind Luffy, I can't read Japanese so posting that doesn't really mean anything to me, though I will ask, why is your translation of it anymore accurate than people who actively translate One Piece related stuff and are trusted to do so accurately?

What other databooks corroborate Zoro being = to Luffy?

If other stuff in the databook was corrected but this wasn't, wouldn't that suggest it isn't a mistranslation?

 

[Eminiteable]

What other databooks corroborate Zoro being = to Luffy?

Tempest said above, it's databook yellow.

If other stuff in the databook was corrected but this wasn't, wouldn't that suggest it isn't a mistranslation?

No the literal information is correcred, none of the translations done are official, just the information itself is corrected if it's incorrect. Examples Sabo being dead corrected, Shanks being Yonko before meeting Luffy, Lucci having haki in pre-timeskip.

I can't post images on this website so I'll link you to where the translations can be seen, they break it down on why it accurately translate to Next to:

Why whoever translated as "second to" did so idk, if it's Artur's it may be his bias like when he translated "Shanks can fight toe-to-toe/equally with even the marine admirals" to "Shanks can masterfully fight the marine admirals" or something along those lines.

 

[Purgy]

In that case it seems fine to me

Artur's was one of them, the other was this

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah idk why both of them view that as second, unless they think "next to" = "second to", but no in the case it would have said something like "the highest fighting capability second/behind the captain" but it doesn't.

I've never viewed someone being next to being behind, idk if that's just me tho.

 

[CinCameron20]

No it does in fact effect a lot of tiers, specifically nearly every sabaody - thriller bark tier.

Thanks for the reminder. Zoro used Ashura to damage the Pacifista which tanked a combined attack from the Trio, so that could be a supporting thing for the 3x multiplier (except it would only apply to this key completely. Enies Lobby key should simply be "Far higher" since back-scaling is kinda shifty).

If anything, the description for Thriller Back Zoro's "High 7-C" should instead say "Could damage the Pacifista via combination attacks with Sanji and Luffy".

Thriller Bark Luffy should be High 7-C with Gear 2nd instead of Low 7-B (he used Gear-Stacking to ultimately take down Moriah anyways)

It only impacts the High 7-C characters. Low 7-B characters scale from Asgard Moriah and Pacifista.

----

In regards to Zoro =/< Luffy: "Next to" can imply either equal or behind (the gap being undetermined). Until proven otherwise, it's always best to go for the lesser. Not like it necessarily matters with current scaling since Zoro's only slightly weaker than Luffy.

 

[Eminiteable]

How does "he's the highest next to" imply he's second to someone? That literally doesn't make sense, it they say you're the best at something but you also stand next to someone else that would mean both are the highest.

The context given is "he has the highest fighting capability in the crew, next to the captain" he would still be the highest just that Luffy is also the highest, making them equals.

 

[RoyGundam]

How does "he's the highest next to" imply he's second to someone? That literally doesn't make sense, it they say you're the best at something but you also stand next to someone else that would mean both are the highest.

The context given is "he has the highest fighting capability in the crew, next to the captain" he would still be the highest just that Luffy is also the highest, making them equals.

highest, next to Luffy implies that Zoro <= Luffy

 

[Eminiteable]

It most definitely does not imply that.

次ぐ either means "to rank next to" or "come after", the sentence structure doesn't work with "to come after" so it wouldn't work.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Eminiteable]

It's concluded that Asura is just changed to "far higher" as far as I can tell since no evidence has come for the multiplier.

But this revision effects a lot of profiles since a lot of scaling relies on that multiplier.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. "Far higher" sounds like several tiers higher though. Isn't "higher" enough?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I think "higher with Asura" should be enough.

 

[LordGinSama]

"Far higher" should work better, Asura is a massive amp and Cin already provided why Zoro's Asura as of Sabody could be 3x. He damaged the Pacifista while a combination attack from Luffy, Zoro and Sanji couldn't.



So Saboady Asura would either be at least a 3x or he should outright scale to Low 7-B in that form.

So

 

[Damage3245]

@LordGinSama; they could harm the Pacifista even without their amped attacks, and other characters like Chopper could harm the Pacifista as well.

 

[LordGinSama]

Chopper never harmed the Pacifica, they outright tanked his attack. Robin damaged him via slamming it's mouth shut and making it implode, Nami could only damage them via electrical attacks. Which I dont need to explain how that's durability negation against a machine. I mean really, that's outright misinformation and ignoring blatant context.

 

[RoyGundam]

BTW Zoro also left an actual scratch on Kuma's body with a shi-shi son-son

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. "Far higher" sounds like several tiers higher though. Isn't "higher" enough?

I think that this argument still applies though.

 

[CinCameron20]

"Far higher" for Enies Lobby Zoro imo (one-shotting a character who could tank his Santoryu attacks beforehand)

Probably keep 3x multiplier for Sabaody since it allowed him to hurt a Pacifista that withstood a combined attack from Zoro/G2 Luffy/DJ Sanji

Post time-skip should probably be "higher" since we don't know how much stronger it is.

Also, Zoro should have Illusion Creation via Enbima Yonezu Oni Giri as he makes it appear as though his blades are bending/waving, causing some form of mirage.

@Eminiteable - "Next to" can either mean "at the same level" or "right behind/2nd place", but either way, Zoro is the 2nd strongest Strawhat via stats anyways when ignoring Jinbe, who joined way later.

 

[Eminiteable]

@Eminiteable - "Next to" can either mean "at the same level" or "right behind/2nd place", but either way, Zoro is the 2nd strongest Strawhat via stats anyways when ignoring Jinbe, who joined way later.

If you were to take that 'next to' interpretation then you would have to say Luffy is second to Zoro considering its stated he has the highest fighting capability, but that makes less sense since the only two other Databooks state they're equals outright.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that "far higher" sounds like several tiers higher to a casual visitor, which would not be a good idea.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm in agreement with Antvasima.

 

[Eminiteable]

Idk if it's enough evidence for "Far Higher" but a very recent article came out that covers a lot on Zoro on One-Piece.com (same place they update the info on the vivre cards etc)

and they had a small section on Asura where they say "The Power is enough to cause atomization of the opponent's attack."