One Piece: AP Revision of High Tiers

[Js250476]

For pica people were discussing him constructing the flower hill

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that should also be regular AP as far as I know. He uses the same type of power for his attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245

I would greatly appreciate if you would correct all of the One Piece pages that have been messed up from not scaling the bird cage as regular attack potency, despite that I clearly repeatedly stated that it should be.

 

[Antvasima]

The tier categories at the bottom of the character profiles also have to be updated.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Ant

Birdcage was scaled as AP though per your request. We just decided before in this thread that it doesn't scale to anyone.

Yeah, I forgot about the tier categories.. sorry about that

 

[Antvasima]

If it scales to Doflamingo's regular AP, it scales to Luffy and all other characters of his level.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Ant

We had a huge discussion here about Doflamingo's Bird Cage being separate from his normal attacks. More than that, I'm pretty sure Damage was the one who started the discussion about that topic.

With all due respect, I disagree with the way things were handled here. I and Damage proposed the new scalings, everybody agreed with them, and when I started editing them everybody suddenly changed their mind. If someone actually thinks that it scales to his regular AP, then he should've said so in the discussion itself, BEFORE we all decided to edit the profiles. You were the one who said that you agree with the changes and that the edits can be made.

All I did was follow the changes Damage proposed, and yet I'm somehow at fault now that some people changed their mind right when I started performing edits.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm just very annoyed at how things were handled here. Wasting 4 hours on the revision only to have people saying that the scaling should actually be different at the last moment isn't the right way to handle things.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have to handle lots of different tasks, and sometimes overlook things, but I apologise if I have caused offence.

Anyway, if Luffy can overcome Doflamingo's thread manipulation attacks, he should logically scale to their AP, i.e. the bird cage. The current statistics do not make particular sense.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Monkey D. Luffy (New World Saga): At least 7-A (Superior to Zoro and Sanji), High 7-A with G2 & G3 (Kept up with Fujitora), At least High 7-A with G4 (Overwhelmed Doflamingo)
Doflamingo: High 7-A (Kept up with Luffy), 6-C with Birdcage (Calced)

Trafalgar Law: At least 7-A (One-shot Vergo), High 7-A with Gamma Knife (Dealt heavy damage to Doflamingo)

Zoro: 7-A (Calc), likely higher with Asura

Pica: Likely 7-A (Held back Zoro temporarily, but was ultimately weaker)

Vergo: Likely 7-A (Roughly comparable to Pica)

Sanji: Likely 7-A (Managed to hold back Vergo temporarily)

Katakuri: Likely 6-C

Smoothie: Likely 6-C

Cracker: At least High 7-A

Fujitora: At least High 7-A, likely higher, High 6-C with meteors

Sabo: At least High 7-A, likely higher

Jack: Likely 6-C

Inuarashi: Likely 6-C

Nekomamushi: Likely 6-C

This isn't all of them, but thoughts on this?

Here are the scalings Damage suggested, but later we agreed on replacing "Likely 6-C" with "At least High 7-A, likely higher"

Also Damage has a good explanation here on why Doflamingo's Bird Cage =/= his regular AP. That was the biggest point of the revisions honestly.

 

[Standuser081]

I kind of agree with @Ant here. The fact that Luffy managed to break through God Thread, which should be comparable if not stronger than the birdcage, means that Luffy should scale to it. But I think that only G4 Luffy can be scaled to it since it was in that form that he broke it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, Luffy and the other characters on his level should be 6-C.

 

[Standuser081]

I posted not only twice, but three times, didn't I?

 

[Captain_Torch]

Well, I'm not in the mood to debate this point so I'll leave this up to Damage when he returns.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. For once, I think that we are entering unwarranted downplay territory though.

The One Piece fans among our visitors would be justified to get angry at us for this.

 

[Standuser081]

Also Damage has a good explanation here on why Doflamingo's Bird Cage =/= his regular AP. That was the biggest point of the revisions honestly.

Except that God Thread was in his Awakened form, not his regular AP.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Well. personally I'm pretty sure the the commanders are somewhere around 6-C, however we still lack calculations for that.

And the birdcage was implied to be indesctructible inverse, same as Bart's barriers. Even Fujitora's strongest attack failed against it, which is where the calculation comes from. So the argument that Doflamingo's Black Knight = Birdcage is really flawed, for the reasons brought up above. And overall, the Bird Cage seems separate from Doflamingo's normal attacks. It was a plot device in a way, since nobody could stop it and the only way of stopping it was defeating Doflamingo.

And Pica building himself should be Environmental Damage, since it isn't really applicable to AP. The calculation scales how Pica created his golem, but there's nothing that implies that it's = to his physical attacks.

I for one think that the One Piece profiles are finally more accurate compared to before.

But this is just my 2 cents about this. What the majority agrees with is what will be accepted, so we'll see how the argument goes I guess.

 

[Standuser081]

My logic is that

G4 Luffy > Awakened Doflamingo > Non-Awakened Doflamingo

so unless you're saying that the birdcage is stronger than his "awakened" attacks, I think that G4 Luffy can be scaled to it.

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't make any sense that Doflamingo's would be able to exercise less force with his most powerful thread attacks than he can by spreading them over a large area. Lots of verses would have to be downgraded if we subscribed to this principle. As it is we are unfairly singling out One Piece.

 

[fandom_9TailAcno]

7-A G4 luffy is more than lowball to me, 6-C and higher is better tier and make more sense

 

[Stefano4444]

And the birdcage was implied to be indesctructible inverse, same as Bart's barriers. Even Fujitora's strongest attack failed against it, which is where the calculation comes from. So the argument that Doflamingo's Black Knight = Birdcage is really flawed, for the reasons brought up above. And overall, the Bird Cage seems separate from Doflamingo's normal attacks. It was a plot device in a way, since nobody could stop it and the only way of stopping it was defeating Doflamingo.

It was never explicitly stated something like that, only that they were extremely durable.

But the fact that Gear 4th Luffy was able to shatter Doflamingo's Awakening threads, which should be superior to his standard threads, the same things that the Bird Cage is made of, prove that the threads can be destroyed.

And the combine strength of most people on Dressrosa, along with the strong pirates and marines was able to momentaneary stop the Bird Cage from moving, show once again that it has a physical limit.

Also i'm pretty sure that if Fujitora trully wanted, he could have destroyed the Bird Cage or he could have just directly beat Doflamingo, the only reason he didn't is because he wanted Luffy to defeat Doflamingo, so that he could use that event as proof to abolish the Shichibukai.

And Pica building himself should be Environmental Damage, since it isn't really applicable to AP. The calculation scales how Pica created his golem, but there's nothing that implies that it's = to his physical attacks.

For just physically moving the mountain size golem's body weight millions/billions of tons for several meters, Pica would still need to generate a lot of energy/power (likely in the Megatons of TNT), energy/power that he can likely infuse intro his physical attacks.

If Pica could lift the Flower Hill by using the same Devil Fruit power that was used for creating the giant golem other than moving it, then is logical to assume that he can infuse his golem's punch the same magnitude of power.

And if you really don't think that feat can be scaled to Human Pica, at least i think is reasonable that it can be scaled to Golem Pica or only when using his Devil Fruit power, so something like this:

Likely Mountain level/7-A physically, Island level/6-C with Devil Fruit power.

 

[Damage3245]

My logic is that

G4 Luffy > Awakened Doflamingo > Non-Awakened Doflamingo

so unless you're saying that the birdcage is stronger than his "awakened" attacks, I think that G4 Luffy can be scaled to it.

Why would his Birdcage not be stronger? And where is this idea coming from that his Awakened Strings are powerful than the usual strings he creates?

 

[Damage3245]

I will be back at my PC later tonight and I can make a summary detailing both sides of the Birdcage argument. Would everyone be okay with waiting until then?

 

[Standuser081]

My logic is that

G4 Luffy > Awakened Doflamingo > Non-Awakened Doflamingo

so unless you're saying that the birdcage is stronger than his "awakened" attacks, I think that G4 Luffy can be scaled to it.

Why would his Birdcage not be stronger? And where is this idea coming from that his Awakened Strings are powerful than the usual strings he creates?

It was imbued with Arnament Haki.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll cover that in my list of responses.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would much prefer if we avoid an argument and just scale Luffy and the comparable characters from the bird cage. This is our standard approach to other verses, and it will leave a very sour taste in the mouths of our visitors if we single out One Piece with a different standard.

 

[Gear2ndGandalf]

Not to mention King Kong Gun > God Thread > Non-awakened threads. I agree that G4 is likely 6C territory.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, I am too busy to argue about it, but I am familiar with our standard approach for cases like this, and we cannot make an exception without having to handle lots of upcoming claims of extreme bias from our visitors, especially not for such a prominent franchise.

I extremely seldom push my authority around, but in this case that is my official ruling in this matter. I would greatly appreciate help to enforce it.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't intend to selectively single out One Piece in anything, can I explain my reasoning in a few hours?

 

[Antvasima]

Not scaling the bird cage to Doflamingo's other strongest thread attacks is inevitably singling out One Piece, since we don't tend to use this approach for other franchises.

You can explain yourself, but I most likely will not accept it, and I am very overworked and also stressed out today (since it is election day in my country, and the wrong result could lead to a complete disaster).

 

[Damage3245]

Well, don't worry about this topic at least for a few hours. I will be very thorough on my examination of the scaling being used here and I wouldn't suggest anything that wasn't fair and reasonable.

I don't have anything against One Piece, it's even one of my favourite manga series.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But then again,people now complaining the downgrade because this revision: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2079205

 

[Antvasima]

Look, I am repeating over and over that this issue isn't up for discussion. We have our standard approach for these types of situations, and cannot make an exception, regardless whether or not you personally like the franchise.

I would greatly appreciate your help with cleaning up this mess.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I wasn't so much complaining as confused, the time I first made the thread, the only person who had changed was Luffy, he was suddenly High 7-A, and then everybody started getting downgraded and I got more confused, why wouldn't we scale everyone to Doflamingo's BirdCage

 

[Antvasima]

We should definitely scale everybody of Doflamino's level and above to the bird cage.

 

[Damage3245]

What are you counting as being on his level? Base Luffy? Because there are legit problems with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Gear 4 Luffy during his fight with Doflamingo, and all characters of a similar level that were previously scaled to either of them.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I'm personally against making flawed decisions simply based on the fact that people might consider it "downplay" otherwise. I think verses should be scaled using facts, and not by "the fans might get angry".

Not to mention the fact that Doflamingo isn't the only character who has a move about his tier. Vsbattles has a ton of characters who have special attacks which are far above the level of others.

This revision is meant to fix the previous mistakes, so I'm personally against putting them on a certain tier just so that the visitors are satisfied. Well, it's not up to me to decide though. I'll wait for the arguments that Damage brings.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, that would make a lot less profiles to fix so the full list of changes isn't all bad.

I'll also say that I did plan on reviewing the profiles after I had got back to my PC.

 

[Antvasima]

@Captain Torch

Doflamingo uses the same type of power, thread manipulation, for all of his attacks. It doesn't make sense for him to use far less energy for some full force attacks than others.

@Damage3245

Okay. Thank you for the help. Don't forget to check, and if necessary adjust, the tier categories at the bottom of all the pages that Torch edited as well.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Didn't Pica used to have a 6-C feat that a ton of people scaled to? What ever happened to that?