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OG Dragon Ball 5-C Scaling to Roshi's Moon-Busting Feat Should be Removed

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LordTracer said:
This is about where I’m at as well. I don’t have any issue with 22nd Budokai Tien, Roshi, Goku, etc. being 5-C, but I also don’t particularly mind them being downgraded.

But King Piccolo? KP Arc and 23rd Budokai Goku, Piccolo Junior, Kami, 23rd Budokai Krillin, Yamcha and Tien, etc? They should absolutely stay 5-C.
Click to expand...
My exact thoughts which is why I don't get those trying to say Goku"s 23rd Kamehameha isn't moon level suddenly and now saying any guides and statments made are unreliable 🤔

Hmmm..
 
SunDaGamer said:
Shenron used a similar kind of technique Elder Guru and Elder Kai use to bring out people's potential which worked despite the elders being far weaker than Namek Krillin or Ultimate Gohan, if Piccolo asked Shenron to straight up multiply his power then it wouldn't work
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I mean......Orange Piccolo was an "extra", aka, something else aside from the "inner power" he unleashed to Piccolo, that is what i was refering to
 
I'm ambivalent for now but losing 5-C Chi-Chi would be a damn shame 😔

Are the characters stated to be STRONGER than Roshi? Not characters that could beat him in a fight. Characters that are literally, physically stronger.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
The context of the student’s surpassing them seems to clearly reference their strength. I think Roshi stating his students surpassing him should mean just that. Yamcha having a BP of 177 is why 180 was accepted as being 5-C in the Topaz thread, and with feats that support that. For example, Yamcha being able to impress Kami, tank blows from Kami, and damage Kami with his Sokidan. This is the same Kami who’s WAY stronger than the Goku who beat Demon King Piccolo, as the others have shown above why he’s definitely 5-C. That’s why 177 starts the 5-C stuff, and 180 is smoothly into 5-C.
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Damage3245 said:
This is my current view on it too, yeah.
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LordTracer said:
This is about where I’m at as well. I don’t have any issue with 22nd Budokai Tien, Roshi, Goku, etc. being 5-C, but I also don’t particularly mind them being downgraded.

But King Piccolo? KP Arc and 23rd Budokai Goku, Piccolo Junior, Kami, 23rd Budokai Krillin, Yamcha and Tien, etc? They should absolutely stay 5-C.
Click to expand...
 
Vizer04 said:
He didn't make any valid points,, all he did was accussing OP of "bullshiting" which is incredibly rude and derails the discussion.
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It's a simple ass equation: Max roshi busts the moon. Roshi himself states that there are characters he can't defeat, or characters that are outright stronger than him or surpassed him [Kid goku, tien, King piccolo, kami piccolo...] and we have Kami piccolo/rossi who can restore/recreate the moon to solidify it even more.
It's pretty simple really.
Denying Moon level of db is as Denying that the earth is round. Heck you might event convince a flat earther.
Even a blind deaf paralysised person can see, hear and feel this is God Tier level bullshitting.
Click to expand...
 
Put me as disagree and delete this shiii and close this. Anything past 22nd Budokai undeniably above Max Roshi. And to call out the official guidebooks that explicitly make this clear without pointing out any of the "contradictions" .....which to no surprise certain people seem to agree with without actual fact checking the OP...... is utter bull and such opinions should not be entertained. Its 2024 going on 2025 and we are still questioning the reliability of the Daizenshuu?????
 
LordTracer said:
This is about where I’m at as well. I don’t have any issue with 22nd Budokai Tien, Roshi, Goku, etc. being 5-C, but I also don’t particularly mind them being downgraded.

But King Piccolo? KP Arc and 23rd Budokai Goku, Piccolo Junior, Kami, 23rd Budokai Krillin, Yamcha and Tien, etc? They should absolutely stay 5-C.
Click to expand...
Seems good to me as well from what I've read here.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
It is your place when the entire premise of the argument that King Piccolo is 5-C relies on the assumption that Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha wouldn't have been enough to defeat King Piccolo.
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not really,

creating assumptions and stating them as factual don't help your argument

because any interpretations you or I come up with will be inherently inferior to what is said in the text.
CiscoTheSoto said:
There's also the straightforward fact that Roshi needs to have a clear, non-moving target in order to fire his MAX Power Kamehameha wave, otherwise it would miss anad potentially blow up the planet.
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except neither of those things is a fact

Roshi only using it on stationary targets ≠ he can only use it on stationary targets.

He also never displays worry that he will destroy the planet, not even when he aims it at said planet when putting out the fire mountain.
CiscoTheSoto said:
Having a stronger attack does not inherently mean you're stronger than the opponent. It's been demonstrated several times with SSJ Vegeta Final Flash vs Cell, SSJ Goku Kamehameha vs Cell, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon against Raditz. All those characters were acknowledged as stronger, but they were still susceptible to a weaker opponent's strongest attack. Same applies here. King Piccolo would still be susceptible to the MAX Power Kamehameha because it's vastly stronger.
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You would have a point if Roshi's statements weren't holistic.

Like there is no arguing Roshi saying that Piccolo's power was greater than either him or Tien could imagine, if he could manifest a power superior let alone imagine one.

Or Roshi saying he doesn't even compare to Goku in power, if he has a technique that could erase him if Goku stood still.

when someone says X is more powerful than Y in Dragon Ball, it's usually not a statement made to be interpreted with caveats.

especially without anti-feats or contradictions to actually make a feasible reason to argue against Roshi's very straightforward statements.
CiscoTheSoto said:
Direct Statements don't automatically reflect the AP. I repeatedly stated that and mentioned that having a powerful attack is worthless if you can't use it. And I never said that Tier 5 lore wasn't present. I'm arguing only one character ever displayed such a feat and that he was unique in it until Piccolo replicated it in DBZ.
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Direct Statements from credible sources without contradictions, caveats, or anti-feats do automatically reflect AP.

Not every verse has the luxury to depict multiple tier 5 feats in the limited setting the story takes place.

So how does the Author show these characters are threats to their verse's higher-end feats? statements of comparison from viable sources.

You don't need several tier 5 feats for a line of scaling to be viable.
 
I'm gonna have to disagree with completely gutting 5-C for Pre-Saiyan Saga characters outside of Roshi.
Other people have brought up these points supporting 5-C scaling which I agree with:
  • Dragon Balls have the restriction of not being able to grant a wish that exceeds Kami's power (this is meant to be taken in a quantitative way as the example we are given is Vegeta and Nappa's power being far above Kami's so Shenron can't just kill them) but they can create the Moon
  • Guidebook says Kikoho > Kamehameha and explicitly mentions it with reference to Roshi's MAX Power one busting the Moon
  • King Piccolo is said to be beyond all aspects of other martial artists when he shows up in his arc
 
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SunDaGamer said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with completely gutting 5-C for Pre-Saiyan Saga characters outside of Roshi.
Other people have brought up these points supporting 5-C scaling which I agree with:
  • Dragon Balls have the restriction of not being able to grant a wish that exceeds Kami's power (this is meant to be taken in a quantative way as the example we are given is Vegeta and Nappa's power being far above Kami's so Shenron can't just kill them) but they can create the Moon
  • Guidebook says Kikoho > Kamehameha and explicitly mentions it with reference to Roshi's MAX Power one busting the Moon
  • King Piccolo is said to be beyond all aspects of other martial artists when he shows up in his arc
Click to expand...
^

Plus I want to make it known again that Kami is stronger than the Goku who beat DKP, and Yamcha with a BP of 177 impressed, took blows, and damaged Kami. So there’s no reason Yamcha should not scale to 5-C either.
TheGodOfICE777 said:
The context of the student’s surpassing them seems to clearly reference their strength. I think Roshi stating his students surpassing him should mean just that. Yamcha having a BP of 177 is why 180 was accepted as being 5-C in the Topaz thread, and with feats that support that. For example, being able to impress Kami, tank blows from Kami, and damage Kami with his Sokidan. This is the same Kami who’s WAY stronger than the Goku who beat Demon King Piccolo, as the others have shown above why he’s definitely 5-C. That’s why 177 starts the 5-C stuff, and 180 is smoothly into 5-C.
Click to expand...
 
SunDaGamer said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with completely gutting 5-C for Pre-Saiyan Saga characters outside of Roshi.
Other people have brought up these points supporting 5-C scaling which I agree with:
  • Dragon Balls have the restriction of not being able to grant a wish that exceeds Kami's power (this is meant to be taken in a quantative way as the example we are given is Vegeta and Nappa's power being far above Kami's so Shenron can't just kill them) but they can create the Moon
  • Guidebook says Kikoho > Kamehameha and explicitly mentions it with reference to Roshi's MAX Power one busting the Moon
  • King Piccolo is said to be beyond all aspects of other martial artists when he shows up in his arc
Click to expand...
A man of fricken reason. THIS right here
 
SunDaGamer said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with completely gutting 5-C for Pre-Saiyan Saga characters outside of Roshi.
Other people have brought up these points supporting 5-C scaling which I agree with:
  • Dragon Balls have the restriction of not being able to grant a wish that exceeds Kami's power (this is meant to be taken in a quantative way as the example we are given is Vegeta and Nappa's power being far above Kami's so Shenron can't just kill them) but they can create the Moon
  • Guidebook says Kikoho > Kamehameha and explicitly mentions it with reference to Roshi's MAX Power one busting the Moon
  • King Piccolo is said to be beyond all aspects of other martial artists when he shows up in his arc
Click to expand...
Tack on Piccolo Jr. surviving the Super Kamehameha (which has numerous 5-C statements) too when Krillin convinces Goku not to hold back on him too with Krillin (PL 210) pushing this casual piccolo yet still being below Kami (PL 220), DKP (PL 260), and Tien I'd say this is solid
 
SunDaGamer said:
Dragon Balls have the restriction of not being able to grant a wish that exceeds Kami's power
Click to expand...
That doesn't neccesarily mean that Kami is Moon level for that. Moori the Elder Namekian would be Planet level since Porunga recreated Earth.
 
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Vizer04 said:
That doesn't neccesarily mean that Kami is Moon level for that. Moori the Elder Namekian would be Planeta level since Porunga recreated Earth.
Click to expand...
i mean that's not that ridiculous tbh.

a PL of 10,000 is Planetary in DB and Earth is considered small by their standards.

Moori being in the couple thousands isn't insane.

edit: his PL is above Nappa's apparently so yeah, definitely Planet Level.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
The 220 Kami PL doesn't have the best source (It's the same one that places Mr. Popo's PL in the thousands), so I wouldn't use it.
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Its post saiyan saga training in that one so not really an proof against anything and its not even higher than raditz or a saiba
 
However, he's explicitly NOT stronger than Nappa in the Namek Saga. The Warriors Namekians that Dodoria killed were only 3,000 in power, equal to Appule but certainly not to Nappa.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Plus I want to make it known again that Kami is stronger than the Goku who beat DKP, and Yamcha with a BP of 177 impressed, took blows, and damaged Kami. So there’s no reason Yamcha should not scale to 5-C either.
Click to expand...
Kami was impressed... but by both his own words and Roshi's, he's far more powerful than Yamcha. He could've just been impressed by Yamcha's skill without considering Yamcha anywhere on the same level as him.

Kami was also caught off-guard by Yamcha's one attack that left an injury on the body Kami was borrowing (so not Kami's real body getting hurt) and the moment he got serious he instantly defeated Yamcha. There's also no evidence that the blows that Yamcha took from him were Moon level.
 
AwkguyDB said:

Literally implies his own Kamehameha aint got shit on 22nd Budokai Kikoho
Click to expand...

He means the technique itself, not his own Kamehameha.

The Galick Gun and Final Flash are stronger techniques than the Kamehameha but there are certain Kamehameha's that are stronger.

Yamcha's Kamehameha ≠ UI Goku Kamehameha
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Still. Weekly Shonen Jump's list of Power Levels makes mistakes like placing Kami below Demon King Piccolo and Roshi over Yamcha.
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its not a mistake when the Kami they have is saiyan saga kami where he is literally weaker wdym? And You don't even know what you're talking about because these are the weekly Jump levels and here's a second to double down.

the 220 for Kami comes from saiyan saga as his power level from when he restores the moon
 
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