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I am aware this is a contentious issue, but I have several problems with the current 5-C scaling for original Dragon Ball characters. The entire concept of the 5-C scaling is centered around a flawed logic suggested in this thread which justifies the scaling. Now, I'm not suggesting that Master Roshi's 5-C feat should be deemed an outlier again. What I'm arguing is that he should be the sole 5-C character for the Dragon Ball series until Piccolo's moon busting feat in Dragon Ball Z arrives. The scaling for all other DB characters should be returned to how it was before the 5-C change. This should also apply to the Toei versions of the Dragon Ball characters who are Low 5-B other than Roshi.
The main thing I want to tackle is understanding exactly what Roshi's MAX Power form really is. This thread did a good job of explaining it, but I want to go into a bit more depth with my argument for it.
MAX Power Form is EXTREMELY Inefficient
This is something that has to be realized. I'd argue it's probably the most inefficient form in the series until Frieza's revival. In the two times that the form was ever used in Dragon Ball, we have seen just how limiting it can be. When Master Roshi first used it to put out the flames on Fire Mountain, it took him quite a bit to prepare the form, and just one Kamehamaha wave was enough for him to be taken out of the form. Then it happens again at the 21st Martial Arts Tournament. Master Roshi decides to take on his MAX Power form and launches a Kamehameha wave at full power to destroy the moon. Once he unleashes his Kamehameha wave, he once again goes out of the form and is significantly weakened as a result, to the point he can only fire one more Kamehameha wave before he runs out of energy.
The only two times Roshi ever uses this form, it has been to unleash an extremely powerful Kamehameha wave. The incredible bulk this form gives him clearly hampers his movement and fighting abilities significantly. He could barely even move from his spot whenever he took the form. If it wasn't such a burden. then why didn't Roshi just use his MAX Power form to overpower Goku's Oozaru form physically or even make an attempt? It's because the strain it puts on his body is too much for him to maintain it for very long. It's only by Frieza's Resurrection that he's honed the form well enough that he can actually fight in close-quarters combat using his MAX Power form. But during Dragon Ball, from what is demonstrated of the form both times, it's a significant burden on Roshi that's only used as a last resort to destroy a very large, non-moving object.
"Serious" Roshi
Here is the main crux of the argument that was used in the previous thread to upgrade everyone to 5-C. Daizenshuu states that Tien and Master Roshi have a power level of 180. I do not argue this power level. What I am arguing is that the premise that Master Roshi's "serious state" is the same as his max power state, or that the muscular form he used when fighting Tien is the power level with 139, is ridiculous. One can clearly see there is a difference between Master Roshi's regular state and when he gets serious. When he prepares to eliminate the fires on Ox Mountain, you can see that he is very skinny and looks like a decrepit old man. THAT is his regular state when he's not fighting serious, and when his power level is 139. Not entirely muscular like his MAX Power form, but still muscular enough. The very fact they went out of their way to mark them as the same power level of 180 goes to show they directly considered Roshi's muscular form to be his "serious" form, not his MAX Power form.
The guidebook which was being used as evidence in the previous thread says Roshi's power level is 139 when he's not fighting. There's even in-series evidence to prove my point. In the series itself, when Bulma uses the scouter, she calculates Master Roshi's power level in his regular state as 139. This means Roshi and Tien were at equal power levels of 180 if we are using the logic of the guidebook.
Master Roshi Surrendered to Tien Without Using his MAX Power form or MAX Power Kamehameha. He Admitted He Would Have Lost Had the Fight Kept Going. That Means Master Roshi Knew it Wouldn't Be Powerful Enough to Defeat Tien.
That is not true. Just because Roshi said he would've lost had the fight continued does not imply that Tien had surpassed Roshi's MAX Power state. The direct quote says, "Even if I had gone on fighting like that, I suppose I would have lost." "Like that" is in specific reference to his serious, muscular form he took, which supports the idea Roshi wasn't talking about his MAX Power state at all.
Even if he had used his MAX Power form and unleashed his full power Kamehameha wave, exactly what would it have done? First, if it had hit, there's the fact that it would've killed Tien, something which is against the rules and something he didn't want to happen. There's no guarantee that he could've controlled it well enough to avoid hurting any of the spectators or not take a chunk of the planet along with it. That's assuming the Kamehameha wave lands at all. With the load-up time it takes for Master Roshi to prepare his MAX Power Kamehameha wave, Tien would've just been able to dodge it.
We saw a principle like this play out when Piccolo fought Raditz. He prepared his Special Beam Cannon, which drastically increased his power into an energy blast, but Raditz just dodged it. The same would apply here. Tien would dodge the powered-up Kamehameha wave, as he'd know that it would be an enhanced version of the Kamehameha wave far more dangerous than anything he'd been dealing with, leaving Master Roshi even more vulnerable than before. Then again when Future Trunks used Super Saiyan Third Grade against Cell and couldn't land any blows against him. Power doesn't mean much if you don't have the speed to hit your opponent. Roshi is a master martial artist smart enough to understand that, which is why he never uses the MAX Power form in combat during the original Dragon Ball series.
Master Roshi Said No Version of the Kamehameha Wave Would Work Against Tien's Tri-beam.
This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence to suggest that Tien had surpassed the 5-C Kamehameha. I think it's tempting, but it's still not a direct indication that the Tri-beam is comparable to the MAX Power Kamehameha wave. Remember that Roshi was speaking in the context of watching Goku's match with Tien, and Krillin was asking if Goku's Kamehameha wave would work against Tien. I argue that Roshi was referring to whether any version of Goku's Kamehameha wave would be strong enough to deal with the Tri-beam. If Roshi outright said, "Even my MAX Power Kamehameha wave wouldn't be enough," I'd concede. But it's too ambiguous, and with the evidence I've already demonstrated so far, I don't think this should be used as a main point for 5-C Tien.
Master Roshi Trained and Was Stronger in the 22nd World Tournament.
Just because Master Roshi trained three years from the 21st World Tournament does not mean he became as strong in his regular form as his MAX Power Kamehameha wave. All that would mean is he'd become significantly stronger compared to his previous self in the past world tournament. You would have to show proof or statements that he'd reached the heights of his 5-C through direct statements, and all the statements used to support the idea are based on flawed or ambiguous logic.
Master Roshi said All His Students Surpassed Him.
That does not automatically correlate to all his students surpassing him in raw power. Multiple aspects come with surpassing someone. Battle instincts, speed, tactics, techniques, intuition. Never once did Master Roshi say, "Even my MAX Power form wouldn't be enough against them." Given that Roshi fights in his serious, more muscular form whenever he's fighting strong opponents during Dragon Ball, it seems clear that Roshi meant his students had surpassed his serious state, his power level of 180. If you want to try and otherwise, you have to give me proof that any of these fighters displayed any similar levels of strength to Roshi's moon-busting Kamehameha wave before Piccolo's feat in Dragon Ball Z. Since no such proof exists, it is more appropriate to assume that his students surpassed his serious state and not his MAX Power form, given all of the flaws with the form I've already listed.
Now, generally, does the statement of "X character surpasses me" imply they surpass them in raw power? Yes. But not always. That statement does not always encompass every aspect of a character's abilities. In this instance, given the fact there are no other 5-C feats displayed during Dragon Ball, this is one of the exceptions to the rule. To prove this isn't the exception, there would have to be more specific, repeated statements and feats demonstrated. For instance, in One-Punch Man, when Suiryu fights Gouketsu and is completely overpowered, Suiryu says, "He is above me in all aspects," or "He's stronger than I am in many ways," depending on the translation. That's an example of a more clear-cut demonstration of "surpassing" being used to refer to strength and other aspects. No such statement was ever made by Roshi in the manga or anime.
Nobody Can Multiply Their Strength So Much at That Point in the Series.
The previous thread tried to argue since Vegeta said no one should be able to multiply their strength, it wouldn't make sense that Roshi's MAX Power could give him such a drastic boost in power. Vegeta is not the narrator or an expert in every aspect of ki. He didn't know how to sense ki or how to mask his ki before he went to Earth. He also didn't know that Frieza's transformations could give him such a drastic boost in power. There are many different ways for warriors to train or increase their strength. Master Roshi is over 300 years old and spent 50 years mastering his Kamehameha wave. As its creator, he would have the most experience drawing upon its maximum potential compared to his students. He's had plenty of masters and time to travel the world. While yes, the boost in power may seem excessive, it's clearly been shown that it's the case for Roshi.
Besides, it's not as though no humans eventually reach Moon level. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha reach power levels of over 1,000 with years of training. Roshi's been alive for decades, so he's had even more time than they did to hone his skills, but he could only draw upon this ridiculous level of strength through his MAX Power form until training some more.
Now you might say, "If he managed to get such a ridiculous boost in power with his MAX Power form, why didn't he hone it?" Because he didn't feel the need to train any further. He was the strongest in his era and enjoying a life of relaxation and luxury. Why waste time honing such a ridiculously strong form when even his regular form was practically unmatched? It's only after being inspired by his students that he started training again and mastering his MAX Power form to the point that by Resurrection F', he could use it more practically.
King Piccolo was stronger than Master Roshi, and he didn't use the MAX Power Kamehameha Wave against King Piccolo. That Means he Knew King Piccolo Would've Been Able to Withstand the MAX Power Kamehameha.
This goes under the same logic as the Tien match. Master Roshi has to take a bit to activate the form, and he only has one shot with the MAX Power Kamehameha wave. King Piccolo wouldn't be dumb enough to just stand there and tank a Kamehameha wave when he sees the muscle mass Roshi gains in his MAX Power form. He did it against Goku, but that's because he'd already witnessed his abilities and knew Goku was weaker than him. There would have had to be a way to restrain King Piccolo, probably have fighters like Goku and Tien keep him restrained, which was impossible and risked getting Goku and Tien heavily injured or killed in the process. Even if King Piccolo was indeed stupid enough to stand there and take the Kamehameha wave, Roshi isn't dumb enough to hinge the fate of the world on something King Piccolo MIGHT do, nor would he risk destroying the planet when he knew the Evil Containment Wave was the more likely option to succeed.
Another point which supports the argument that the Dragon Ball characters aren't Moon level is King Piccolo's feat of destroying a city. It takes him a significant amount of time to charge the energy needed to destroy only a city, and he clearly puts effort when firing the energy blast. This heavily implies that it's the most damage he could unleash with his energy. The fact that this is the highest level feat besides the Moon-busting calc until the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is a strong indicator the rest of the cast is not at the moon-busting level until DBZ.
Conclusion
To summarize, the 5-C scaling to the MAX Power Kamehameha is predicated on flawed logic. There are several inefficiencies that come with Master Roshi's MAX Power form in the original Dragon Ball series and he has only ever been able to fire one Kamehameha wave before he exhausts the form. It is very ineffective to use against an enemy, which is why the MAX Power Kamehameha isn't used this way until the Tournament of Power against Ganos. There are no 5-C feats or even remotely similar feats during the course of the original Dragon Ball series, and using the one feat of a uniquely powered-up form unleashing an energy wave that no character had ever endured should not be how the verse scaling should be done.
My proposal is that the Dragon Ball scaling go back to how it was originally, when the 22nd Budokai characters and onward were ranked to 8-B, and we use the previous scaling for King Piccolo to 7-B. I would need assistance in this regard, but I still feel it's worth the effort, as the current scalings and their justifications are inadequate.
The main thing I want to tackle is understanding exactly what Roshi's MAX Power form really is. This thread did a good job of explaining it, but I want to go into a bit more depth with my argument for it.
MAX Power Form is EXTREMELY Inefficient
This is something that has to be realized. I'd argue it's probably the most inefficient form in the series until Frieza's revival. In the two times that the form was ever used in Dragon Ball, we have seen just how limiting it can be. When Master Roshi first used it to put out the flames on Fire Mountain, it took him quite a bit to prepare the form, and just one Kamehamaha wave was enough for him to be taken out of the form. Then it happens again at the 21st Martial Arts Tournament. Master Roshi decides to take on his MAX Power form and launches a Kamehameha wave at full power to destroy the moon. Once he unleashes his Kamehameha wave, he once again goes out of the form and is significantly weakened as a result, to the point he can only fire one more Kamehameha wave before he runs out of energy.
The only two times Roshi ever uses this form, it has been to unleash an extremely powerful Kamehameha wave. The incredible bulk this form gives him clearly hampers his movement and fighting abilities significantly. He could barely even move from his spot whenever he took the form. If it wasn't such a burden. then why didn't Roshi just use his MAX Power form to overpower Goku's Oozaru form physically or even make an attempt? It's because the strain it puts on his body is too much for him to maintain it for very long. It's only by Frieza's Resurrection that he's honed the form well enough that he can actually fight in close-quarters combat using his MAX Power form. But during Dragon Ball, from what is demonstrated of the form both times, it's a significant burden on Roshi that's only used as a last resort to destroy a very large, non-moving object.
"Serious" Roshi
Here is the main crux of the argument that was used in the previous thread to upgrade everyone to 5-C. Daizenshuu states that Tien and Master Roshi have a power level of 180. I do not argue this power level. What I am arguing is that the premise that Master Roshi's "serious state" is the same as his max power state, or that the muscular form he used when fighting Tien is the power level with 139, is ridiculous. One can clearly see there is a difference between Master Roshi's regular state and when he gets serious. When he prepares to eliminate the fires on Ox Mountain, you can see that he is very skinny and looks like a decrepit old man. THAT is his regular state when he's not fighting serious, and when his power level is 139. Not entirely muscular like his MAX Power form, but still muscular enough. The very fact they went out of their way to mark them as the same power level of 180 goes to show they directly considered Roshi's muscular form to be his "serious" form, not his MAX Power form.
The guidebook which was being used as evidence in the previous thread says Roshi's power level is 139 when he's not fighting. There's even in-series evidence to prove my point. In the series itself, when Bulma uses the scouter, she calculates Master Roshi's power level in his regular state as 139. This means Roshi and Tien were at equal power levels of 180 if we are using the logic of the guidebook.
Master Roshi Surrendered to Tien Without Using his MAX Power form or MAX Power Kamehameha. He Admitted He Would Have Lost Had the Fight Kept Going. That Means Master Roshi Knew it Wouldn't Be Powerful Enough to Defeat Tien.
That is not true. Just because Roshi said he would've lost had the fight continued does not imply that Tien had surpassed Roshi's MAX Power state. The direct quote says, "Even if I had gone on fighting like that, I suppose I would have lost." "Like that" is in specific reference to his serious, muscular form he took, which supports the idea Roshi wasn't talking about his MAX Power state at all.
Even if he had used his MAX Power form and unleashed his full power Kamehameha wave, exactly what would it have done? First, if it had hit, there's the fact that it would've killed Tien, something which is against the rules and something he didn't want to happen. There's no guarantee that he could've controlled it well enough to avoid hurting any of the spectators or not take a chunk of the planet along with it. That's assuming the Kamehameha wave lands at all. With the load-up time it takes for Master Roshi to prepare his MAX Power Kamehameha wave, Tien would've just been able to dodge it.
We saw a principle like this play out when Piccolo fought Raditz. He prepared his Special Beam Cannon, which drastically increased his power into an energy blast, but Raditz just dodged it. The same would apply here. Tien would dodge the powered-up Kamehameha wave, as he'd know that it would be an enhanced version of the Kamehameha wave far more dangerous than anything he'd been dealing with, leaving Master Roshi even more vulnerable than before. Then again when Future Trunks used Super Saiyan Third Grade against Cell and couldn't land any blows against him. Power doesn't mean much if you don't have the speed to hit your opponent. Roshi is a master martial artist smart enough to understand that, which is why he never uses the MAX Power form in combat during the original Dragon Ball series.
Master Roshi Said No Version of the Kamehameha Wave Would Work Against Tien's Tri-beam.
This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence to suggest that Tien had surpassed the 5-C Kamehameha. I think it's tempting, but it's still not a direct indication that the Tri-beam is comparable to the MAX Power Kamehameha wave. Remember that Roshi was speaking in the context of watching Goku's match with Tien, and Krillin was asking if Goku's Kamehameha wave would work against Tien. I argue that Roshi was referring to whether any version of Goku's Kamehameha wave would be strong enough to deal with the Tri-beam. If Roshi outright said, "Even my MAX Power Kamehameha wave wouldn't be enough," I'd concede. But it's too ambiguous, and with the evidence I've already demonstrated so far, I don't think this should be used as a main point for 5-C Tien.
Master Roshi Trained and Was Stronger in the 22nd World Tournament.
Just because Master Roshi trained three years from the 21st World Tournament does not mean he became as strong in his regular form as his MAX Power Kamehameha wave. All that would mean is he'd become significantly stronger compared to his previous self in the past world tournament. You would have to show proof or statements that he'd reached the heights of his 5-C through direct statements, and all the statements used to support the idea are based on flawed or ambiguous logic.
Master Roshi said All His Students Surpassed Him.
That does not automatically correlate to all his students surpassing him in raw power. Multiple aspects come with surpassing someone. Battle instincts, speed, tactics, techniques, intuition. Never once did Master Roshi say, "Even my MAX Power form wouldn't be enough against them." Given that Roshi fights in his serious, more muscular form whenever he's fighting strong opponents during Dragon Ball, it seems clear that Roshi meant his students had surpassed his serious state, his power level of 180. If you want to try and otherwise, you have to give me proof that any of these fighters displayed any similar levels of strength to Roshi's moon-busting Kamehameha wave before Piccolo's feat in Dragon Ball Z. Since no such proof exists, it is more appropriate to assume that his students surpassed his serious state and not his MAX Power form, given all of the flaws with the form I've already listed.
Now, generally, does the statement of "X character surpasses me" imply they surpass them in raw power? Yes. But not always. That statement does not always encompass every aspect of a character's abilities. In this instance, given the fact there are no other 5-C feats displayed during Dragon Ball, this is one of the exceptions to the rule. To prove this isn't the exception, there would have to be more specific, repeated statements and feats demonstrated. For instance, in One-Punch Man, when Suiryu fights Gouketsu and is completely overpowered, Suiryu says, "He is above me in all aspects," or "He's stronger than I am in many ways," depending on the translation. That's an example of a more clear-cut demonstration of "surpassing" being used to refer to strength and other aspects. No such statement was ever made by Roshi in the manga or anime.
Nobody Can Multiply Their Strength So Much at That Point in the Series.
The previous thread tried to argue since Vegeta said no one should be able to multiply their strength, it wouldn't make sense that Roshi's MAX Power could give him such a drastic boost in power. Vegeta is not the narrator or an expert in every aspect of ki. He didn't know how to sense ki or how to mask his ki before he went to Earth. He also didn't know that Frieza's transformations could give him such a drastic boost in power. There are many different ways for warriors to train or increase their strength. Master Roshi is over 300 years old and spent 50 years mastering his Kamehameha wave. As its creator, he would have the most experience drawing upon its maximum potential compared to his students. He's had plenty of masters and time to travel the world. While yes, the boost in power may seem excessive, it's clearly been shown that it's the case for Roshi.
Besides, it's not as though no humans eventually reach Moon level. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha reach power levels of over 1,000 with years of training. Roshi's been alive for decades, so he's had even more time than they did to hone his skills, but he could only draw upon this ridiculous level of strength through his MAX Power form until training some more.
Now you might say, "If he managed to get such a ridiculous boost in power with his MAX Power form, why didn't he hone it?" Because he didn't feel the need to train any further. He was the strongest in his era and enjoying a life of relaxation and luxury. Why waste time honing such a ridiculously strong form when even his regular form was practically unmatched? It's only after being inspired by his students that he started training again and mastering his MAX Power form to the point that by Resurrection F', he could use it more practically.
King Piccolo was stronger than Master Roshi, and he didn't use the MAX Power Kamehameha Wave against King Piccolo. That Means he Knew King Piccolo Would've Been Able to Withstand the MAX Power Kamehameha.
This goes under the same logic as the Tien match. Master Roshi has to take a bit to activate the form, and he only has one shot with the MAX Power Kamehameha wave. King Piccolo wouldn't be dumb enough to just stand there and tank a Kamehameha wave when he sees the muscle mass Roshi gains in his MAX Power form. He did it against Goku, but that's because he'd already witnessed his abilities and knew Goku was weaker than him. There would have had to be a way to restrain King Piccolo, probably have fighters like Goku and Tien keep him restrained, which was impossible and risked getting Goku and Tien heavily injured or killed in the process. Even if King Piccolo was indeed stupid enough to stand there and take the Kamehameha wave, Roshi isn't dumb enough to hinge the fate of the world on something King Piccolo MIGHT do, nor would he risk destroying the planet when he knew the Evil Containment Wave was the more likely option to succeed.
Another point which supports the argument that the Dragon Ball characters aren't Moon level is King Piccolo's feat of destroying a city. It takes him a significant amount of time to charge the energy needed to destroy only a city, and he clearly puts effort when firing the energy blast. This heavily implies that it's the most damage he could unleash with his energy. The fact that this is the highest level feat besides the Moon-busting calc until the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is a strong indicator the rest of the cast is not at the moon-busting level until DBZ.
Conclusion
To summarize, the 5-C scaling to the MAX Power Kamehameha is predicated on flawed logic. There are several inefficiencies that come with Master Roshi's MAX Power form in the original Dragon Ball series and he has only ever been able to fire one Kamehameha wave before he exhausts the form. It is very ineffective to use against an enemy, which is why the MAX Power Kamehameha isn't used this way until the Tournament of Power against Ganos. There are no 5-C feats or even remotely similar feats during the course of the original Dragon Ball series, and using the one feat of a uniquely powered-up form unleashing an energy wave that no character had ever endured should not be how the verse scaling should be done.
My proposal is that the Dragon Ball scaling go back to how it was originally, when the 22nd Budokai characters and onward were ranked to 8-B, and we use the previous scaling for King Piccolo to 7-B. I would need assistance in this regard, but I still feel it's worth the effort, as the current scalings and their justifications are inadequate.
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