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Obito and Madara vs The Ashen One.

All DS Protags have several items that teleport them back to bonfires even across different universes. And at worst the Ashen One can just kill himself and resurrect back at the bonfire near the fight anyway.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
For what reasons? No one has even made any actual arguments yet, just stating that each team has Wincons.
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Being serious, what area is the final explorable one for the low 6-B Ashen one? cause currently, with me being extremely inexperience with both (besides seeing meme DS3 runs) and talking to someone who knows about Nautro, they're saying it'll be either obito & madara or incon. based on what we could gather basically from what Ashen can do, not is able to do from limitations.
 
M1keyOnDiscord said:
Being serious, what area is the final explorable one for the low 6-B Ashen one? cause currently, with me being extremely inexperience with both (besides seeing meme DS3 runs) and talking to someone who knows about Nautro, they're saying it'll be either obito & madara or incon. based on what we could gather basically from what Ashen can do, not is able to do from limitations.
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Your comment makes no ******* sense. Elaborate.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Your comment makes no ******* sense. Elaborate.
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DS3 has separated areas that have level recommendations, and Me and the other person I was talking to off-site, are not completely sure what the "6-B" ranking would limit The Ashen One in regions he could explore, and therefore the technical equipment he could have based on the regions he could go to (technically he could be "Maxed level" for "recommendation" wise, but we are asking purely based on the recommend levels that each area has. For instance, Road Of Sacrifices has a recommended level of 30-45 according to the wiki, however, I am unaware of how the scaling on VS battles goes except when it comes to the potency of attacks and whatnot.

So, what "area" would be the limiting factor when it comes to Ashen One's equipment? As-in The last area he could technically interact with / get equipment from, or the 1st area he is not able to interact with / get equipment from.
 
M1keyOnDiscord said:
DS3 has separated areas that have level recommendations, and Me and the other person I was talking to off-site, are not completely sure what the "6-B" ranking would limit The Ashen One in regions he could explore, and therefore the technical equipment he could have based on the regions he could go to (technically he could be "Maxed level" for "recommendation" wise, but we are asking purely based on the recommend levels that each area has. For instance, Road Of Sacrifices has a recommended level of 30-45 according to the wiki, however, I am unaware of how the scaling on VS battles goes except when it comes to the potency of attacks and whatnot.

So, what "area" would be the limiting factor when it comes to Ashen One's equipment? As-in The last area he could technically interact with / get equipment from, or the 1st area he is not able to interact with / get equipment from.
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The problem is the Low 6-B Key for the Ashen One comes from him fighting the Nameless King, which you can't do unless you've already made it past the Dancer and the way the game presents that point is after killing 3 Star Level Characters, so to be honest with you the Low 6-B Key shouldn't even exist in the first place and yet it does because no one on VSB can apparently figure that out.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
You mean Obito using Izanagi with his Rinnegan? Can you prove he can do that or that Madara will even let him do that before getting revived?
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Just go to the Kamui Dimension and use the Sharingan housed there for genjutsu use.

If Obito and/or Madara are hit, Izanagi and catch him off guard.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
The problem is the Low 6-B Key for the Ashen One comes from him fighting the Nameless King, which you can't do unless you've already made it past the Dancer and the way the game presents that point is after killing 3 Star Level Characters, so to be honest with you the Low 6-B Key shouldn't even exist in the first place and yet it does because no one on VSB can apparently figure that out.
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Okay so for 1. do we go with equipment obtainable post-Nameless king cause VSB is confusing, and 2. Are we considering Chakra, and by extension jutsus (Excluding ones that do not require chakra, for example certain forms of taijutsu) as magic?
 
  1. I don't think it's actually all that confusing. I'm pretty sure End Game just refers to literally the final boss of each game and characters that fight the final boss and characters that fight characters that fight the final boss. And characters that link the first flame.
  2. For the most part, I believe we do not equalize Charka as magic, as it's much more like Chi, which we differentiate from most magic here.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
  1. I don't think it's actually all that confusing. I'm pretty sure End Game just refers to literally the final boss of each game and characters that fight the final boss and characters that fight characters that fight the final boss. And characters that link the first flame.
  2. For the most part, I believe we do not equalize Charka as magic, as it's much more like Chi, which we differentiate from most magic here.
Click to expand...
That still leaves the scaling mess of killing 3 Star Level Characters before fighting the Nameless King who is High 6-C/Low 6-B, which is where said Key comes from so it doesn't make sense regardless. Either we need to treat the biggest plot point of the game as an Outlier, the Nameless King shouldn't scale to the Ashen One or the Nameless King needs an Upgrade for any of this to make sense.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
  1. I don't think it's actually all that confusing. I'm pretty sure End Game just refers to literally the final boss of each game and characters that fight the final boss and characters that fight characters that fight the final boss. And characters that link the first flame.
  2. For the most part, I believe we do not equalize Charka as magic, as it's much more like Chi, which we differentiate from most magic here.
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Then yeah theres no way for Ashen One to win imo.
Even if he used the bonfire to whatever advantage, they could just suck it up with kami and force it in his dimension, unless its explicitly (somehow) banned then I see nothing but incon for immortality and Ashen having very minor chance of countering Madara's regen and Obito's Kami, even if he is aware of it.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
That still leaves the scaling mess of killing 3 Star Level Characters before fighting the Nameless King who is High 6-C/Low 6-B, which is where said Key comes from so it doesn't make sense regardless. Either we need to treat the biggest plot point of the game as an Outlier, the Nameless King shouldn't scale to the Ashen One or the Nameless King needs an Upgrade for any of this to make sense.
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Or we could just kill Star level for anyone other then full power Gwyn, hint hint, nudge nudge, star level is wank
 
That's actually a common misconception as it's canon that the first flame is weaker with each repeated linking, but that's neither here nor there as this isn't a revision thread and I don't plan on making that failure revision in the near future.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
Or we could just kill Star level for anyone other then full power Gwyn, hint hint, nudge nudge, star level is wank
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Look after meming and wanting the Roll master(tm) to win, I really don't see any way he can play off either of them unless he had a way to chancel Chi-related things, which afaik are not in DS3 in anyway, shape, or form. Not to mention Edo Madana, with Perfect Susano'o, would just clap DS if he tried to get close. best thing we can get is a win for them due to moving the bonfire into the room area and forcing Ashen to just vibe there, or an incon of "no bonfire movement bad" and so Ashen just respawns, tries to kill 'em, dies, repeat. Unless Im just ignorant of something In DS3 that would give ashen the slightest chance of canceling out a non-magical feat.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
That's actually a common misconception as it's canon that the first flame is weaker with each repeated linking, but that's neither here nor there as this isn't a revision thread and I don't plan on making that failure revision in the near future.
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Either way, we're extremely off-topic.

Now for the actual debate itself, I can see Madara and Obito barely pulling out a W because I honestly don't think they'll be able to get that Genjutsu on the Ashen One unless they pin them down with their higher Lifting Strength and force their eyes open together which is also gonna be difficult to do when o honestly think that they're not as skilled as the Ashen One is but their Precog and Power Mimicry for copying Fighting Styles is gonna eventually save their asses here.
 
pretty sure ashen one has various magical spells/items that help against physical damage but i dont recall him having anything against genjutsu illusion.
 
M1keyOnDiscord said:
Look after meming and wanting the Roll master(tm) to win, I really don't see any way he can play off either of them unless he had a way to chancel Chi-related things, which afaik are not in DS3 in anyway, shape, or form. Not to mention Edo Madana, with Perfect Susano'o, would just clap DS if he tried to get close. best thing we can get is a win for them due to moving the bonfire into the room area and forcing Ashen to just vibe there, or an incon of "no bonfire movement bad" and so Ashen just respawns, tries to kill 'em, dies, repeat. Unless Im just ignorant of something In DS3 that would give ashen the slightest chance of canceling out a non-magical feat.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure Dark Drift can Neg the Susano'o since it Dura Negs Shields, including the Dark Hand which isn't even an actual shield but a Forcefield made of Magic and the Dark Hand also isn't the Ashen One's only Wincon against Madara here since they also have the Lifehunt Scythe that drains people's Life Force from them. With Obito, the Ashen One just needs to avoid getting Mindhaxed and BFR'd if he does try to BFR the Bonfire since he can One-Shot Obito and his Bijū.
 
Ashen one can also use soul attacks and infuse if with his weapon which edos are susceptible to and pretty sure obito doesnt resist soul manip.
 
Loyd said:
Ashen one can also use soul attacks and infuse if with his weapon which edos are susceptible to and pretty sure obito doesnt resist soul manip.
Click to expand...
I thought his Soul Arrows and shit didn't actually damage the Soul, just use them as projectiles? That's how the Dark Souls Profiles imply them to be used.
 
is it? its been too long myabe im wrong its listed in soul manipulation but maybe it doesnt directly attack the soul.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I'm pretty sure Dark Drift can Neg the Susano'o since it Dura Negs Shields, including the Dark Hand which isn't even an actual shield but a Forcefield made of Magic and the Dark Hand also isn't the Ashen One's only Wincon against Madara here since they also have the Lifehunt Scythe that drains people's Life Force from them. With Obito, the Ashen One just needs to avoid getting Mindhaxed and BFR'd if he does try to BFR the Bonfire since he can One-Shot Obito and his Bijū.
Click to expand...
So Incon? Cause you could make arguments that Dark Drift explicitly has only been shown to affect physical and magical, which as you stated before, you akin chakra more to chi, and susano is a physical form of chakra.
darkhand and lifehunt seem like valid wincons if he stays hit-less and uses them pretty well, but thats assuming he can multi-task on all of 'em at once, since taking his eyes off of Obito, Biju, or Madana could lead to a swift death and a pretty simple BFR for him.
 
M1keyOnDiscord said:
So Incon? Cause you could make arguments that Dark Drift explicitly has only been shown to affect physical and magical, which as you stated before, you akin chakra more to chi, and susano is a physical form of chakra.
darkhand and lifehunt seem like valid wincons if he stays hit-less and uses them pretty well, but thats assuming he can multi-task on all of 'em at once, since taking his eyes off of Obito, Biju, or Madana could lead to a swift death and a pretty simple BFR for him.
Click to expand...
I feel like we are ignoring the fact that Ashen One can summon other versions of himself to help in fights.
 
Loyd said:
does ashen one get prep time? or does he start in the ring
Click to expand...
No Prep time.
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
I feel like we are ignoring the fact that Ashen One can summon other versions of himself to help in fights.
Click to expand...
I never restricted the Soapstones.
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
After going through the various Soul spells, the best I could find is a mention of magic tending to ignore the more physical defenses
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So extremely limited Dura Neg then?
M1keyOnDiscord said:
So Incon? Cause you could make arguments that Dark Drift explicitly has only been shown to affect physical and magical, which as you stated before, you akin chakra more to chi, and susano is a physical form of chakra.
darkhand and lifehunt seem like valid wincons if he stays hit-less and uses them pretty well, but thats assuming he can multi-task on all of 'em at once, since taking his eyes off of Obito, Biju, or Madana could lead to a swift death and a pretty simple BFR for him.
Click to expand...
The Susano'o is literally a Physical Humanoid Shield made of Chakra, that's all that needs to be said and the Bijū are almost a Non-Factor if it wasn't for their higher Lifting Strength that could pin the Ashen One down. Like I said earlier, the Ashen One can One-Shot Obito and the Bijū and technically Madara as well if he doesn't whip out the Perfect Susano'o, but only two of their moves work on Madara due to his and the Edo Jinchūriki's Regen so they need to play this carefully, even with extra Ashen Ones to support them.
 
I mean lets just dump some dumb possibilities to make this more clear. Photo could just spam kamui to keep them in his space. Even if he uses the dark sighn to come back madara could just be waiting there to either seal him or use genjustu which would work. I don't think there is much he could do against a planetary devastation restrict all of his movements so he can't force respawn and gets sealed. Could just rip his soul out again and again. And they could just bring each other back using the path.
 
The Dark Sign is thought based, that's how it's treated in every single Dark Souls Protagonist Thread it's brought up in so Chibaku Tensei is ******* useless here.
 
Even though he does an action to use it lmao thats dumb. But even then there isn't anything they can do against sealing or genjustu still. Especially izanami
 
LordEscanor said:
Even though he does an action to use it lmao thats dumb. But even then there isn't anything they can do against sealing or genjustu still. Especially izanami
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When have Obito and Madara ever used Izanami? Obito especially ain't using that shit with his Mangekyo that has Kamui on it and he can't cast it with Madara's Rinnegan either so that's out. Madara might do it only because he knows that when he gets Resurrected that he's gonna take his eye back from Obito. Also, what other Jutsu would they even have after Chibaku Tensei because I don't remember them using any Sealing Jutsu other than that
 
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