Nyarlathotep (Cthulhu Mythos) VS The Presence (DC Comics)

[Hat_mchat]

That implies azathoth is incapable of connecting nyarlathotep to himself, which is by definition a limitation, so clearly there is some flaw in that logic. Regardless, nyarlathotep is an outer god which in and of itself qualifies for type 5

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So, let's see if I understand it: They're all part of Azathoth, and when Azathoth wakes up, they won't be destroyed, they'll just become one with him again, is that right?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Yes that is true, although that is not why they are type 5, merely a consequence of it. They are type 5 due to not being bound by concepts of death, existence, non-existence etc.

 

[ProspectX]

That's more towards the direction of transduality.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Whatever you want to call it, it still is enough for type 5, which is complete inability to die.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

 

[Hat_mchat]

"If it is possible to destroy such a character"

No

 

[ProspectX]

That implies azathoth is incapable of connecting nyarlathotep to himself

Why would azathoth need to connect to something that is merely his dream? It's already a part of him, but he is still boundless by nature. Anyhow if yog-soth is the second most powerful after azathoth then i can only see type 5 belonging to him.

 

[Burstchaos]

If Azathoth wants, he can kill anyone in the series; if he can't he's not a tier 0 and if he can (which he should be able to do, as a tier 0) then they don't have type 5. Type 5 really should be exclusive only for tier 0's.

 

[ProspectX]

If Azathoth wants, he can kill anyone in the series; if he can't he's not a tier 0 and if he can (which he should be able to do, as a tier 0) then they don't have type 5. Type 5 really should be exclusive only for tier 0's.

Exactly^ what my subject implies.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

What about Yog? Azathoth can kill him if he wants, so, why does he have Type 5 Immortality?

 

[ProspectX]

What about Yog? Azathoth can kill him if he wants, so, why does he have Type 5 Immortality?

Because a other high 1-A, featherine got the same type.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So what? Azathoth can still kill him if he wants.

 

[ProspectX]

the term kill is not even useful, it's called erasing. Anyhow since Versus battle can't explain their judgment in a way more than "typically tier 0's", i can only accept that high-1A has type 5 immortality. Look at the demon bane verse, none of the high-1A got that rating for some reason.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Erase from what? Yog trancends all concepts.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

See thread Kaltias linked in which I explain this in detail.

Also DMB Nyar and Yog have Type 5 in the series, as well.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Ok, I guess.

 

[ProspectX]

Erase from what? Yog trancends all concepts.

It doesnt matter what he is erased from, yog is nothing more than a dream to Azathoth. All those concepts and forms have no meaning before a TIER 0.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Then why does he have Immortality Type 5?

 

[ProspectX]

I really dont care if High 1-A's are depicted with type 5 immortality in this site, but giving it to 1-A's is quite the understatement of the rating.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

If Azathoth wants, he can kill anyone in the series; if he can't he's not a tier 0 and if he can (which he should be able to do, as a tier 0) then they don't have type 5. Type 5 really should be exclusive only for tier 0's.

Exactly^ what my subject implies.

You guys were saying that Nya doesn't have Type 5 Immortality because Azathoth can kill him, but Azathoth can kill Yog too.

 

[ProspectX]

See thread Kaltias linked in which I explain this in detail.
Also DMB Nyar and Yog have Type 5 in the series, as well.

It needs to be clarified in the power and abilites section for the profiles.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This falls under stuff like the "omnipotence paradox"

You could argue a Tier 0 isn't Tier 0 if they can't kill themselves, and argue that they can't have Type 5 immortality if they can. The true answer, however, is that this dichotomy does not apply to them.

In this case, you're not overriding an Outer God's Type 5 due to its fundamental link to Azathoth and, to a lesser extent, Yog. That is why they have Type 5.

 

[Hat_mchat]

^ really good explanation.

Personally i think being 'killed' by an omnipotent is a worst case scenario and has to be rejected for the purpose of simplicity. Yes Azathoth can kill them, but he can also kill, for example kami tenchi, no he can't, but then he's not omnipotent, so he can? No kami tenchi is omnipotent, oh...i see...

 

[Burstchaos]

^ really good explanation.
Personally i think being 'killed' by an omnipotent is a worst case scenario and has to be rejected for the purpose of simplicity. Yes Azathoth can kill them, but he can also kill, for example kami tenchi, no he can't, but then he's not omnipotent, so he can? No kami tenchi is omnipotent, oh...i see...

That doesn't apply, they're from 2 different verses; they were never meant to be put together; if an omnipotent cannot kill someone is their own verse, they are not omnipotent.

It doesn't apply to the omnipotence paradox because an omnipotent can do both things at the same time; he can be both completely alive and completely dead and if dead can be brought back to life when he wills it, even if he willed himself to die. That doesn't apply to Yog because if Azathoth erases him, Yog can't come back without Azathoth wanting him to come back.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It doesn't apply to the omnipotence paradox because an omnipotent can do both things at the same time; he can be both completely alive and completely dead and if dead can be brought back to life when he wills it, even if he willed himself to die.

"The true answer, however, is that this dichotomy does not apply to them."

^literally what that means.

 

[Burstchaos]

How does that apply to Yog?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because Yog, and all Outer Gods, are beyond such lowly duality. You cannot "kill" something that is beyond all forms of perspective, because the action of "killing" or "destroying" these things in any way is an illusion, to them.

 

[Burstchaos]

Because Yog, and all Outer Gods, are beyond such lowly duality. You cannot "kill" something that is beyond all forms of perspective, because the action of "killing" or "destroying" these things in any way is an illusion, to them.

But when Azathoth wakes up they wil cease to exist; isn't that the whole point of them. They will no longer exist when Azathoth wants them to no longer exist and that removes perfect immortality.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But when Azathoth wakes up they wil cease to exist; isn't that the whole point of them. They will no longer exist when Azathoth wants them to no longer exist and that removes perfect immortality.

This is something that never happens, because all things are at once. There is no such thing as cause and effect on this level, but only what we perceive it as from our limited perspective.

Azathoth isn't even really "asleep" in conventional terms.

 

[Burstchaos]

1-A beings are beyond time by definition so causality doesn't affect them in general; in a place beyond time, everything happens all at once anyways, for various verses, because there is no such thing as time there. And, they're existing because Azathoth doesn't want them dead or doesn't want to 'awaken' right now, that doesn't change the fact that if he wants them to not exist, they will not exist.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1-A beings are beyond time by definition so causality doesn't affect them in general; in a place beyond time, everything happens all at once anyways, for various verses, because there is no such thing as time there.

Except it doesn't. Multiple 1-As still experience things in a certain order (the Presence and the Archangels, Masadaverse characters, I/O characters, the Choushin, etc.).They still perform actions and make choices. This does not apply, here. There is no such thing as "now" or what can happen. All that ever will be already is.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Someone please close this thread. It's bad and will never go anywhere.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I think on that thread, azathoth said how even if Azathoth awoke, they would just become one with him again, hence not dying.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Fair enough i agree

 

[ZERO7772]

I agre with matt this isn't going anywhere

 

[Hat_mchat]

How do you close the thread?