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Nothing, Nowhere, Not At All - Metal Overlord Generations
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
- Start date
- Status
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So it does exist. But alas, it's unused, so it doesn't matter.
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Well obv didn't check that but if it's cut content it don't matter for our purpose. The fact it was cut in the first place ain't a good sign.
Explode VIOLENTLY.
Ghengiroo115
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Yeah I know I was just musing on it possibly existing.
So that confirms it’s unused LMAO. So much time wasted on that…
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The avenue for Low 1-C post-Generations base cast is that unused line of dialogue, so some may say it's easier without it
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We were debating over CUT CONTENT?!?!?!
GlaceonGamez471
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Lmao
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This never happened. Shadow simply thought of using it but hesitated, which gave Sonic the window to beat him. Using this logic a single Homing Attack also beat Shadow.
Because Black Doom (the source of these powers) is dead. Not because he just turned them off.
But all seven Emeralds do grant miracles. Heck, even Ian's rewrite of Gens references this. Chaos Emeralds grant miracles when all 7 are united.
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Doesn't matter why, it proves it's something that can, in fact, be altered.
I don't have anything to say to this. The intent of the statement is obvious.
Miracle in context is being used as "holy shit, he's so built, even with these things we would need a miracle by definition of the word to actually beat him".
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Btw if Low 1-C Metal Overlord were to be accepted (tbh I at least like it more than 1-C because it's actually rooted in something more logical), how would this be handled on Shadow's profile? Would he need like, a "Doom Powers (Incomplete)" and "Doom Powers (Complete)" key? And how would they be phrased? The first thing that comes to mind is something like:
At least 2-C, up to Low 1-C | 1-C, higher with Doom Wing
Key: Doom Powers (Incomplete) | Doom Powers (Complete)
At least Low Multiverse level (Grew in power from gaining Doom Powers, such as Doom Spear and Doom Blast), up to Low Complex Multiverse level (As Shadow gained more Doom Powers, his power grew to an extent that he could face even the likes of Metal Overlord) | Complex Multiverse level (Much stronger than before as a result of gaining all his Doom Powers and becoming "complete." Fought and defeated Devil Doom), higher with Doom Wing (Even stronger than before, being able to combat and even kill Neo Devil Doom)
Scans would be added as necessary ofc
If the line about Sonic is cut content, I've got my own opinions on that (like the debate of if cut content that lacks contradictions should be usable as it reflects the original intentions of the writers, pitted against the sheer fact that it was cut meaning they didn't want it anymore), but I'd rather just get into what Shadow's profile may look like in the event of Low 1-C Metal Overlord being accepted
At least 2-C, up to Low 1-C | 1-C, higher with Doom Wing
Key: Doom Powers (Incomplete) | Doom Powers (Complete)
At least Low Multiverse level (Grew in power from gaining Doom Powers, such as Doom Spear and Doom Blast), up to Low Complex Multiverse level (As Shadow gained more Doom Powers, his power grew to an extent that he could face even the likes of Metal Overlord) | Complex Multiverse level (Much stronger than before as a result of gaining all his Doom Powers and becoming "complete." Fought and defeated Devil Doom), higher with Doom Wing (Even stronger than before, being able to combat and even kill Neo Devil Doom)
Scans would be added as necessary ofc
If the line about Sonic is cut content, I've got my own opinions on that (like the debate of if cut content that lacks contradictions should be usable as it reflects the original intentions of the writers, pitted against the sheer fact that it was cut meaning they didn't want it anymore), but I'd rather just get into what Shadow's profile may look like in the event of Low 1-C Metal Overlord being accepted
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I just wanna get into this because... they're like, actively pushing and clashing against each other, and Sonic and Shadow have to dodge each other's attacks, showing relativity. What you make of it is one thing, but let's not say there's nothing there. There's absolutely something there
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Just make Base Sonic Low 1-C (actually would make Infinite upscaling Void believable)
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I'll have "Things That Will Never Happen" for 500
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I mean lowkey, you brought up Mephiles being able to do stuff he previously required the Emeralds for.
Uhhhh making the purple floor and creating many clones is kinda stuff he did when he had Emeralds for his dusty desert fight.
Idk Low 1-C base would still establish Sonic being far weaker than his super form.
Uhhhh making the purple floor and creating many clones is kinda stuff he did when he had Emeralds for his dusty desert fight.
Idk Low 1-C base would still establish Sonic being far weaker than his super form.
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Doesn't matter, that would only ever give scaling to an amped Shadow anyway
Stop pushing for this
Stop pushing for this
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Maybe for now.
But I’ll get 5-D base someday.
But I’ll get 5-D base someday.
Ghengiroo115
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I think two keys like that would work, only I’d have the keys be named this “form” of Shadow rather than just Doom Powers (Shake’s sandbox calls him “Evolved Shadow” which I assume comes from something I’m not aware of, while Speed Simulator calls him “Doom Shadow”).
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Wait hang on.
Metal Overlord being Low 1-C would mean he got Low 1-C off of Chaos and a bunch of adventure era base characters.
Would that work as perfect chaos low 1-C justification?
Metal Overlord being Low 1-C would mean he got Low 1-C off of Chaos and a bunch of adventure era base characters.
Would that work as perfect chaos low 1-C justification?
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Probably comes from the toy mentioned in the Sonic Central called "Evolved Shadow".
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I'm a believer of the higher-D Base Sonic characters meta, but the day people actually want to agree on that is hard-pressed to even arrive.
Ghengiroo115
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Feels iffy to me. Perfect Chaos is an Emerald-powered form, so I feel if you’re accounting for Perfect Chaos then you’ve also gotta account for Super Sonic, Super Shadow and any other Super form. You’ve also gotta account for Shadow’s Black Arms DNA having an unknown effect on him as well. There’s too many variables imo, especially since we don’t even know how the Metal Overlord transformation really works.
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Shadow’s DNA didn’t provide him a substantial boost until Shadow Gens, and Black Doom wasn’t that strong until then either.
Ghengiroo115
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Honestly if the English version of the Sonic > Metal Overlord statement was in the game, I probably would’ve 100% pushed for Tier 1 base even if I didn’t like it.
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Stop
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Bro has to ruin fun at every stage.
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Yes, I am a D1 hater
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I don't much care for whether or not it's liked or disliked. So long as the data is accurately and honestly presented, it is what it is. Sure it's a lil tedious to have to go in and fix all of the profiles, but that's prolly gonna happen soon anyway with any new game that'll come out whenever Sonic Team decides to release Frontiers 2.
Either way, I got faith in the meta. Whether it happens? Don't know. Hopefully it happens in this thread/threads spawning from this one, but I won't hold my breath.
ShakeResounding
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- Thread starter
- #309
I renamed the keys in what I appear could be better.
Incomplete would have a Weaknesses section which notes the activation of Doom Wing is out of his control and thus unrealistic to achieve in a combat setting on top of the "Can't remove his Inhibitors" stuff.
Let me know if you find anything too wordy in what I've adjusted. This obviously isn't something I'm 100% firm on
Ghengiroo115
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This would lead to Shadow having 8 keys, with two of them covering massive stat differences between their lowest and highest levels. I know Shadow is one of the characters we’ve talked about splitting profiles for, so we should probably do that soon after this thread (not necessarily immediately, just soon).
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No, it doesn't. It just proves he lost his powers. As in, they're not in him anymore. It doesn't prove he could turn them off previously as they were part of his biology
Nobody actually gives a shit about this because nobody actually argues in CRTs when staff comes to downgrade. I am going to rant a bit here. Everyone just wants upgrades and higher stats but most don't even bother to edit the pages. I am pretty sure if Metal Overlord gets accepted to low 1-C the people arguing for it will edit in a way that will be confusing to casual goers, and make people mock the wikia even more for why Base Sonic doesn't scale to it. Which will make the staff and people who hate higher tier Sonic finally act while the people who want higher tier hide in fear, and the people who get screwed up are the men who actually bother to work on these pages.
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No. The intent is that current Super Sonic would struggle, but still win. Not that Overlord is stronger than that one-off McGuffin from the previous spin-off game. Heck, Eggman's statement could even be interpreted that he doesn't believe Sonic can harness enough power from the emeralds to actually beat Overlord, even if they are stronger than the Precious Stone.
And even then, you're doubly wrong anyways. Miracle is refering to when the seven emeralds are gathered. Japanese version makes it clear.
"Even with the power of the stones that summon miracles, the chances of beating him are slim."
This makes it even more clear that the emeralds have more than enough power to beat Overlord, and that Sonic using them might struggle.
Also, Toyoda explicitly said that the Egg Dragoon>>>>Metal Overlord. That's more of an explicit statement than Overlord being stronger than Maginary World. This means we can't avoid the tier 1 base discussions if we want to apply this downgrade.
All in all, I am firmly against any form of tier 1 Overlord. It's based on chain-scaling statements across two different games, and a very generous interpretation of a statement from the US version. Meanwhile he has plenty of anti-feats, Shadow even with 5 Doom Powers amp loses to Sonic, and a very clear WoG statement putting it below the Egg Dragoon.
I highly suggest any staff who agreed with tier 1 Overlord to recant their votes and re-think about it and its consequences. There's not enough evidence putting Overlord at low 1-C and above Maginary World, as Eggman doesn't believe it is stronger than the emeralds, and simply that even with them chances are slim, implying it's a matter of actually harnessing that power rather than it being insufficient.
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Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,557
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Not only is that a Twitter WoG, but it's distinctively not explicit? Toyoda legit ignores the question and just says that the Egg Dragoon is Eggman's strongest mecha, which is something we already accept?Also, Toyoda explicitly said that the Egg Dragoon>>>>Metal Overlord. That's more of an explicit statement than Overlord being stronger than Maginary World. This means we can't avoid the tier 1 base discussions if we want to apply this downgrade.
In fact, your interpretation of that statement places the Egg Dragoon over Void too? You know, the same Void who can't be anything BUT Low 1-C?
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No, it's not otherwise he would be stronger than the Egg Wizard. Plus Toyoda said it in respect to who's stronger between Overlrod and Void, showing Egg Dragoon is>>>> to them.
But hey, if you're willing to actually put in the work when a downgrade thread for Sonic comes you're free to put Base Sonic at low 1-C.
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Noticed that Shadow’s sandbox has him at infinite speed in his Riders key, don’t think that’s right, should be lowered to MFTL+ off either ABIS’ feats or the nonaggression scaling.
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Yeah, you're right. I think infinite speed starts at Secret Rings.
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My dude, the point is that he thinks the Emeralds are >>>> the preciostone, given the statements given of him thinking them to be the strongest things there are after seeing the power of the PS, saw MO, and thought "damn, dude is invincible, there is no way to beat him, the Emeralds are our only slim chance, we would need a miracle to even stand a chance"
you can try and assume that it means "Sonic can't use them properly", which i would ask for evidence of as it require more assumptions than just "MO is just that strong", and since Sonic has been using them for years now saying he doesn't know how to use them is really weird, specially when his younger self was shown to be able to use it in the same extent as Modern Sonic, back in Generations, so he absolutely knows how to use them to their full potential
no? it says that the power they have are still just a slim chance against MO, he never says Sonic anywhere on that sentence
"Personally", aka, as per our WoG rules, we can't use this statement... since it is just him giving a personal opinion, not him giving an accurate insight on the series' lore.
Also, Toyoda explicitly said that the Egg Dragoon>>>>Metal Overlord. That's more of an explicit statement than Overlord being stronger than Maginary World. This means we can't avoid the tier 1 base discussions if we want to apply this downgrade.
the statement is not all different from the Japanese version... it is nearly the same tbh
*lets himself lose and says he and Sonic aren't on equal terms
He says that beating him with them and their powers would still be a slim chance... he at least think MO is comparable to whatever he knows they can do
how is that the implication? the implication would be "even with their power and abilities, it will still be very hard"
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I will say, to anyone trying to argue base Sonic scales to tier 1 due to this thread... don't, the OP itself highlights why Sonic doesn't and can't scale to the Shadow that fought MO at all
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MO scaling off the Precioustone doesn’t really make much sense with just Eggman’s statements, it’s not like they can just make a trip to Maginaryworld to grab the stone or Illumina to fight Overlord to make a comparison.
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Because Eggman can't travel to Maginary World to get the Illumina to nuke Overlord? He never says the emeralds AREN'T enough to beat Overlord in japanese, he just says it's a "slim chance". That just means Super Sonic might not harness enough power to beat Overlord, which is possible. We have seen Sonic struggle to non full power super threats. Eggman NEVER says there's no way to beat him. He says Overlord is "invencible" (which is false), then says with the emeralds they have a "slim chance". That's it. Nothing that would make Overlord>>>Chaos Emeralds, which is what's necessary for Overlord being Maginary World tier.
Because at that point Sonic never had used tier 1 powers for the emeralds. Just from the previous game he struggled against Final Hazard and needed Shadow's help to teleport the ARK. Classic Sonic in Gens is just an outlier. It's more likely Modern being there helped him just like Sonic does to Tails and Knuckles in Heroes.
Everything else in your post is a variation of "nuh uh" or repeating yourself. Unlike you, I won't reply to everything because I don't want everything to be a wall of text. You say so much superfluous information.
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