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NNT Tier 6 and Tier 7 Revisions
- Thread starter Malikobama1
- Start date
- Status
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- #162
For those reading, I'm taking a neutral stance on the matter, I'm just summarizing both sides.
@Ant The only thing left to be decided here is whether to place Late Morning Escanor/The One Escanor and Assault Mode Meliodas as 6-A.
Remain At least High 6-B side: Characters shouldn't be upped a tier based on scaling without any concrete calc at that tier. This is an indexing wiki that tries to be as accurate as possible and there should be a certain standard of evidence for upgrading a tier. There have been many instances in the past where possible upgrades were ignored because there was not enough concrete numbers to support them.
From Raven:
"The argument whether or not other series have such scalings (which series? and from which scaling are we upscaling?) is not the point of contention.
The point of contention is that we render our own set standards useless without anything to back that up. The difference between 370 Teratons and 1 Petaton is not neglegible. If we allow a series to jump in tiers simply because of inverse "who is stronger" ruling we set a dangerous precedent for every other series. In fact, people will point on calculations and upscale stronger characters by 70% simply because "NNT has done it".
Not before long, that our calcs are not a strict red line but nothing than a mere guidance where 1 or 2 tiers make no difference, massively devaluation the wikis accuracy."
People who want 6-A's side: Tarmiel is 368 teratons. You need to be a little over 2 times as powerful to be over the 6-A baseline. Scaling suggests that's likely the case.
From Versus:
"Other verses have upward scaled with Scaling chains exactly like NNT Top-Tiers with success. Yes, it is best to have calculations take precedence to an extent, but it gets to a point when you have to reasonably upscale a character if they're far above a feat that is casually close to the next tier to begin with.
LM Escanor should be At Least High 6-B, likely higher. (Though he would be borderline 6-A really)
AM Meliodas should be straight up 6-A for kicking the shit out of LM Escanor.
The One and the Deities need no explanation.
This is the most reasonable lowball that I can think up. Only AM Meliodas, The One, and The Dieties need to be full 6-A. Nothing more."
From ByAsura:
"A partially transformed Meliodas, who would be at most equal to a very heavily suppressed AM Meliodas against Escanor, could break out of Melascula's cocoon, which not even a Demon Meliodas, who is above Lodoshel, who is above the two other archangels, could do. And a full power AM was able to casually curb escanor, who was roughly comparable to this.
Even if Meliodas isn't, the one, at the very least, should be for nearly killing Mel with an air slash."
@Ant The only thing left to be decided here is whether to place Late Morning Escanor/The One Escanor and Assault Mode Meliodas as 6-A.
Remain At least High 6-B side: Characters shouldn't be upped a tier based on scaling without any concrete calc at that tier. This is an indexing wiki that tries to be as accurate as possible and there should be a certain standard of evidence for upgrading a tier. There have been many instances in the past where possible upgrades were ignored because there was not enough concrete numbers to support them.
From Raven:
"The argument whether or not other series have such scalings (which series? and from which scaling are we upscaling?) is not the point of contention.
The point of contention is that we render our own set standards useless without anything to back that up. The difference between 370 Teratons and 1 Petaton is not neglegible. If we allow a series to jump in tiers simply because of inverse "who is stronger" ruling we set a dangerous precedent for every other series. In fact, people will point on calculations and upscale stronger characters by 70% simply because "NNT has done it".
Not before long, that our calcs are not a strict red line but nothing than a mere guidance where 1 or 2 tiers make no difference, massively devaluation the wikis accuracy."
People who want 6-A's side: Tarmiel is 368 teratons. You need to be a little over 2 times as powerful to be over the 6-A baseline. Scaling suggests that's likely the case.
From Versus:
"Other verses have upward scaled with Scaling chains exactly like NNT Top-Tiers with success. Yes, it is best to have calculations take precedence to an extent, but it gets to a point when you have to reasonably upscale a character if they're far above a feat that is casually close to the next tier to begin with.
LM Escanor should be At Least High 6-B, likely higher. (Though he would be borderline 6-A really)
AM Meliodas should be straight up 6-A for kicking the shit out of LM Escanor.
The One and the Deities need no explanation.
This is the most reasonable lowball that I can think up. Only AM Meliodas, The One, and The Dieties need to be full 6-A. Nothing more."
From ByAsura:
"A partially transformed Meliodas, who would be at most equal to a very heavily suppressed AM Meliodas against Escanor, could break out of Melascula's cocoon, which not even a Demon Meliodas, who is above Lodoshel, who is above the two other archangels, could do. And a full power AM was able to casually curb escanor, who was roughly comparable to this.
Even if Meliodas isn't, the one, at the very least, should be for nearly killing Mel with an air slash."
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editet into summary.
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I put your argument just posted here into the summary
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Thanks. Edited my point.
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Kill la Kill and Akame ga Kill have upscaling chains like this, and they work just fine. I don't know why this is such a big issue.RavenSupreme said:
What IS inaccurate is to assume that with a massive scaling chain like this one, AM Mel and LM Escanor/The One are only 1.5 or so x stronger than people they curbstomp. I'm pretty sure you gotta be at least 2x stronger than someone to curbstomp them.
It's 368 Petatons to 760 Teratons. That is only 2x.
It's simpily more accurate to rate them as they are, at the very least 2x stronger than Tamriel.
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Calculations are a starting point. But powerscaling is the next, and equally important step in rating a character. It is illogical for a character to be confined to the same tier, despite being shown multiple times that they very likely scale one tier above it.
So far the only argument against 6-A I am seeing revolves around. "It violates our own set os standards"
There is no standard. This site is just... unreasonably stubborn when it comes to reasonable upscaling.
So far the only argument against 6-A I am seeing revolves around. "It violates our own set os standards"
There is no standard. This site is just... unreasonably stubborn when it comes to reasonable upscaling.
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Yes, that's what I'm saying. Other verses have upscaled without issue, and within the realm of reason. NNT can do the sameAntvasima said:
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It's extremely late where i live, but might as well.
Even the part of Sariel's feat being extremely casual — seemingly being done without a sweat, or exert — should, in itself, make the rating much easier to reach than the rather small gap that the scaling chain has already.
Even the part of Sariel's feat being extremely casual — seemingly being done without a sweat, or exert — should, in itself, make the rating much easier to reach than the rather small gap that the scaling chain has already.
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^^^ByAsura said:
Yes, I've been saying this as well
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I am fine with Ant's opinion on the matter. This issue would keep going around in circles because both sides have valid points to them, it's not a case of one side just being in the wrong. If anyone on the wiki could give a concluding opinion on the matter it would be him given how long he's been around here.
The final results would look like:
Late Morning Escanor: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
Assault Mode Meliodas: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
The One Escanor: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
Deities: "6-A" (as per Raven's compromise above due to the way everyone else is just a fraction of their power + the "too powerful to stay in the world" statement)
That said, by all means keep debating (I mean that non-sarcastically btw)
The final results would look like:
Late Morning Escanor: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
Assault Mode Meliodas: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
The One Escanor: "At least High 6-B, likely higher"
Deities: "6-A" (as per Raven's compromise above due to the way everyone else is just a fraction of their power + the "too powerful to stay in the world" statement)
That said, by all means keep debating (I mean that non-sarcastically btw)
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Fixed that. This makes much more sense in regard to how casual the feat is, and the scaling chain.Malikobama1 said:
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Then why are we having calculations, rules, guidelines in the first place? If we dont use them as the reference point to scale to, there is no need to calculate at all.Antvasima said:
I said it to others and I say it to you as well, we dont do this because we are a random club of fans of series X and as such want our series to get a strong standing. We are gathering fiction from all over the world and therefore have some form of responsibility in terms of accurate scaling.
In one series upscaling may be the right approach and common sense, but what is to say that the next series will be the same? Simply saying "other series have done the same" is exactly what I am opposed off and what I think need to change in general, since it lacks any foundation for us to use.
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Hmm...to play devil's advocate here, could the wiki not just use a case-by-case approach? If a series tries to use NNT or AGK or another upscaling chain in the future to justify completely unjustifiable upgrades, I'm sure they would be smacked down quickly if they have no reasonable evidence to back up their case.
Edit: But either way, everyone agreed on the other stuff so I'm going to begin applying the changes. The only debate remaining at this point is the 6-A stuff.
Edit: But either way, everyone agreed on the other stuff so I'm going to begin applying the changes. The only debate remaining at this point is the 6-A stuff.
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Seriously, why is this such an issue? Why are you sticking so close to regulations that don't even exist in the first place? There is no such regulation on powerscaling.RavenSupreme said:
My proposal has been very reasonable and considerate to your own stance on the matter.
That is merely your view on "Accurate" scaling. Doesn't mean it is actually accurate.
I'm going to say it once more. The scaling cihan+ how casual the feat is+m said feat being a mere 2x below baseline 6-A is more than enough for AM mel and The One to be 6-A.
Again, you're only argument seems to be "It violates standards so it shouldn't happen"
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New development: According to our Wiki 6A begins at 760 Teratons, not 1.000 Teratons.
With the FC multiplier being agreed upon 368 x 2 = 736 Teratons and neither LM Escanor nor AM Meliodas being affected by it, I can agree that the remaining 24 Teratons can be upscaled.
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Previously I argued from the point that 300 Teratons are missing to 6A. But its just 24.
As such:
Tarmiel/Sariel/Estarossa etc - 186-368
AM Mel / LM Esca - 736 Teratons -> Upscaled to 6A (760 threshold)
The One Esca - At least 6A
Deities: At least 6A
With the FC multiplier being agreed upon 368 x 2 = 736 Teratons and neither LM Escanor nor AM Meliodas being affected by it, I can agree that the remaining 24 Teratons can be upscaled.
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Previously I argued from the point that 300 Teratons are missing to 6A. But its just 24.
As such:
Tarmiel/Sariel/Estarossa etc - 186-368
AM Mel / LM Esca - 736 Teratons -> Upscaled to 6A (760 threshold)
The One Esca - At least 6A
Deities: At least 6A
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Except the evidence here is more than reasonable. This site is just ridiculously stubborn when it comes to stuff like this.Malikobama1 said:
Also, I feel like you're only agreeing with Raven because he's a staff member. Appeal to Authority.
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@Versus and Malik
Given power scaling in the series, and the gap between the lower end to higher end of Continent level, i think just 6-A would be more appropriate for the one, and i can't stress enough how this is only for the one.
Obviously this is just an opinion, but i think it makes sense given how he nearly oneshot Mel, who was powerful enough to curb an extremely high end LC character.
Given power scaling in the series, and the gap between the lower end to higher end of Continent level, i think just 6-A would be more appropriate for the one, and i can't stress enough how this is only for the one.
Obviously this is just an opinion, but i think it makes sense given how he nearly oneshot Mel, who was powerful enough to curb an extremely high end LC character.
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So do you agree with.RavenSupreme said:
6-A LM Escanor, AM Mel and The One? If this is the case? I would've brought up the FC point, but I assumed it only related to durability.
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@Versus
I was playing devil's advocate against Raven's point with that comment, calm down and look at it clearly man. Also, I've been agreeing with both of you because in my view both of you are coming from a legitimate viewpoint. I honest-to-god do not really care whether these characters are 6-A or At least High 6-B, I just want a conclusion reached.
@Raven
So I guess Versus' edit to my comment above is fine with you?
I was playing devil's advocate against Raven's point with that comment, calm down and look at it clearly man. Also, I've been agreeing with both of you because in my view both of you are coming from a legitimate viewpoint. I honest-to-god do not really care whether these characters are 6-A or At least High 6-B, I just want a conclusion reached.
@Raven
So I guess Versus' edit to my comment above is fine with you?
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It definetly also scales to AP, seeing that LM Escanor managed to punch AM Mel bloody post FC sun, which no one cared about.
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I am calm. It's just a pet peeve when I see a comment arguing in favor for one person possibly by virtue of their position. It's from back in my days on Spacebattles where Staff hoarded tons of power. So I'm naturally paranoid of that happening.Malikobama1 said:
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Well then, should this be resolved then?RavenSupreme said:
We've spent a good deal of time debating the Tier 6 characters. But what about the Tier 7 scaling? What was the agreement on that?
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Ok, with Raven's edit to his comment, it seems a conclusion has been reached.
@Versus
There wasn't any dissent except for Sealed Demon Mark Meliodas possibly being High 7-A from Peter. The calc's approved and for now most of the changes are agreed upon.
@Versus
There wasn't any dissent except for Sealed Demon Mark Meliodas possibly being High 7-A from Peter. The calc's approved and for now most of the changes are agreed upon.
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I think this could have been reached way sooner if I had looked at the 6A threshold a little more earlier. 30% upscaling for no reason is something I can not accept, regardless the series.
3% however is no problem, given the circumstances.
3% however is no problem, given the circumstances.
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Very well. I'd still argue that 30% is small enough of a difference to upscale. But now that we can agree, there's no further point indebating that here.RavenSupreme said:
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I am against upscaling sealed Wrath Meliodas to High 7-A. The scaling chain is not quite big enough to warrant that.
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At least 7A+, likely high 7A is a good compromise.
The difference between Matrona and Gilthunder from that time is the difference between night and day after all.
The difference between Matrona and Gilthunder from that time is the difference between night and day after all.
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Very well. It makes sense, since the guy did stop a 440 MT guy's sword with three fingers.RavenSupreme said:
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@Versus
Matrona has over twice the physical power and over twice the magic as Diane, she'd be over the baseline to High 7-A by default.
Matrona has over twice the physical power and over twice the magic as Diane, she'd be over the baseline to High 7-A by default.
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So are we able to start making the 6-A changes now?
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