NNT Tier 6 and Tier 7 Revisions

[Malikobama1]

Rather than debunk anything, you should try to make your comments make sense first.

But whatever, it doesn't matter. Raven's idea is fine. Using the 2x Cruel Sun which didn't even budge Escanor let alone Meliodas (and Meliodas also having all the energy delivered directly to him by Perfect Cube), 6-A characters can be a thing.

 

[Izreldan]

So, when can these upgrades be applied?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

So AM Meliodas and LM Escanor should be 6-A in durability for taking a Full Countered Cruel Sun point blank with no real damage?

Still, considering the scaling chain and the low level of effort on Tamirel's part, I still think they should be straight up 6-A.

 

[RavenSupreme]

AM Meliodas and The One Escanor should remain at least High 6B. Its only the Deities which should get the likely 6A scaling at the moment.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

AM Meliodas and The One Escanor should remain at least High 6B.

Based on what?

 

[RavenSupreme]

The compromise we agreed upon several posts above.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The compromise we agreed upon several posts above.

The scaling chain, and the characters being High 6-B makes no sense. They should at the very least be baseline 6-A. Unless you're going for them to be High 6-B, but pretty much borderline 6-A anyways.

6-A durability is a must for them either way.

 

[Izreldan]

Assault Mode Meliodas and The One Escanor should without a doubt be 6-A.

Tarmiel and Sariel are High 6-B (368 Teratons)

The One Escanor >>> Assault Mode Meliodas >>> Late Morning Escanor >>> Post-Revival Meliodas >>> Ludoshel >>> Tarmiel and Sariel

As Malikobama1 brought up, you would only have to be about 2 times stronger than Tarmiel and Sariel to be 6-A, and Assault Mode Meliodas and The One Escanor are VASTLY superior to Tarmiel and Sariel, at this point they're on a whole other level completely.

So 6-A still stands.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Without a new calculation to scale them to there is no tierjump just out of the feeling we have it being logical. We dont use our subjective feelings to grade characters. We refer to calculations and multipliers.

The deities are the exception I am willing to compromise on as agreed earlier on.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Without a new calculation to scale them to there is no tierjump just out of the feeling we have it being logical. We dont use our subjective feelings to grade characters.

You mean how you did exactly this when you vandalized the My Hero Academia Top-Tiers based on your own Arbitrary opinion, and without a CRT?

So far your argument opposing 6-A consits of "X character shouldn't be Y strong because I don't like it"

With how casual the feat was, and the scaling chain. 6-A is more than reasonable. It's what makes sense.

Sorry, but you're going to have to do way more than that.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I will not get in a personal squabble with you over MHA nor over this matter. My arguments remains the same. You are free to perceive it different than I do.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I will not get in a personal squabble with you over MHA nor over this matter. My arguments remains the same. You are free to perceive it different than I do.

Alright, sorry for coming off as rude. But you're speaking like your opinion is an objective fact, when it is just as subjective as everything else. Or at least you come off that way.

I still stand by my argument. They should at the bare minimum be baseline 6-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

> You mean how you did exactly this when you vandalized the My Hero Academia Top-Tiers based on your own Arbitrary opinion, and without a CRT?

This is an utterly uncalled-for low blow. You need to control yourself before responding. You've constantly shown this kind of behavior when someone disagrees with you on a series you like.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

> You mean how you did exactly this when you vandalized the My Hero Academia Top-Tiers based on your own Arbitrary opinion, and without a CRT?This is an utterly uncalled-for low blow. You need to control yourself before responding. You've constantly shown this kind of behavior when someone disagrees with you on a series you like.

Maybe he needs to stop speaking like his opinion is an objective and unchangeable fact. Even pretty much calling all other interpretations "Illogical" and "Subjective" I can't stand it when people do this sort of thing.

Someone's gotta be that one guy who brings the harsh questioning, and blunt disagreements. otherwise it's just an endless circle jerk and hive-mind. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it.

 

[Dziga]

Ok I don't get it. AM Meliodas can stomp a guy who is already > 368 Teratons and TO Escanor can one-shot AM Meliodas in return, and that's not even a 2.09x or a 1.16x times difference? Just... wow...

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Actually AM Meliodas stomps LM Escanor who pretty much stomps guys who are signifigantly above 368 Teratons.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Stomping someone that is power level around 88k cuz the whole stomping idea of PLs and then the same person gets stomp and gets toyed around until high noon and still be 1.16x increase is just illogical.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree with them being 6-A.

A partially transformed Meliodas, who would be at most equal to a very heavily suppressed AM Meliodas against Escanor, could break out of Melascula's cocoon, which not even a Demon Meliodas, who is above Lodoshel, who is above the two other archangels, could do. And a full power AM was able to casually curb escanor, who was roughly comparable to this.

Even if Meliodas isn't, the one, at the very least, should be for nearly killing Mel with an air slash.

 

[BurlapJack]

Inb4 mel and escanor are officially 6-A

 

[RavenSupreme]

Whether we think something would make logical sense given inverse ruling is not the important thing here. What is important is relying on the same rules and the same standards for all the verses. We are not a Fanclub. We try to determine as accurate as possible results for all the fantasy series out there. This can only work if all fantasy series out there are tiered by the same ruling.

We have lots of things which would make logical sense from an inverse perspective which we still do not apply.

Speed feats where we go with high seconds instead of what likely was the timeframe in the series.

Upgrades from people blitzing each other without getting scaled faster in the tiers.

And the reason we use universal standards is because the verses are different. Reasoning one way for one series maybe makes sense and they receive an upgrade due to appealing on inverse logic where overwhelming evidence is presented.

But the next series may not have that strong of evidence, but still somewhat comparable indications, and with us as a community having set a precedence of neglecting our standards in favour of a unique ruling once, we would have to do it a second time.

And then the next feat from a different series comes. And where do we set the standard then overall? Suddenly every feat from every series, every scaling for every series, every on screen even can be argued to be the exception from the rule with enough pushing from the fanbase without any actual calculations to back that up.

-

This is not a matter of someone "acting as if the opinion is an objective fact". This is a matter of our standards and ruling for our entire community. We dont do these profiles just for us so they look good in a way we want them to be. This is a matter of us providing information using universal approaches for visitors who want to learn more about a series and who can rely on us applying the same rules for every series.

-

As such I repeat my stance on the matter: Based on the 370 Teraton calculation and using inverse logic and scaling, High 6B is where the Top Tiers should stay.

With the DK and the SD being the compromise given their extraordinal hype (world cant handle the DK etc.) allowing them a likely 6A.

 

[AstralKing7]

I guys don't sleep huh ƒÿæ

 

[ZERO7772]

I am not really supporting the 6-A scaling but if we upgraded AM Mel to 6-A that would also scale to LM Escanor "who did 90% of the battle with AM Mel" he tanked and survived Mel attacks plus putting some damage to him "although minor" and if we scale LM Escanor we may face the issue if scaling backwards again depending on the future events

 

[VersusJunkie54]

snip

That is a whole lot of Argumentium Ad Verbosium. Can you please condense your arguments a bit? Because you are kinda repeating yourself in that post.

Using "It's just a standard, so it absolutely must be this way" excuse is an insanely weak argument. Other verses have upward scaled with Scaling chains exactly like NNT Top-Tiers with success. Yes, it is best to have calculations take precedence to an extent, but it gets to a point when you have to reasonably upscale a character if they're far above a feat that is casually close to the next tier to begin with.

I'll re-post the scaling chain.

The One Escanor >>> Assault Mode Meliodas >>> Late Morning Escanor >>> Post-Revival Meliodas >>> Ludoshel >>> Tarmiel and Sariel= Casually 368 Teratons

LM Escanor should be At Least High 6-B, likely higher. (Though he would be borderline 6-A really)

AM Meliodas should be straight up 6-A for kicking the shit out of LM Escanor.

The One and the Deities need no explanation.

This is the most reasonable lowball that I can think up. Only AM Meliodas, The One, and The Dieties need to be full 6-A. Nothing more.

 

[ByAsura]

^ I agree with these ratings.

 

[RavenSupreme]

We will not agree on that matter, seeing how we have fundamentaly different attitudes regarding the entire approach on scalings.

I suggest to call in other calculation members to cast their vote.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

We will not agree on that matter, seeing how we have fundamentaly different attitudes regarding the entire approach on scalings.
I suggest to call in other calculation members to cast their vote.

That is an Appeal to Authority fallacy. Since when does a calc group members' opinion overide that of normal users? If that is what you're going for.

 

[RavenSupreme]

The calculation group members approval is a requirement for upgrades, scalings, calculations etc. If the majority agree with your stance it counts as much as if they were to agree with mine.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The calculation group members approval is a requirement for upgrades, scalings, calculations etc. If the majority agree with your stance it counts as much as if they were to agree with mine.

No? That only applies to accepting calculations. They are not a supreme authority on CRT, and scaling characters within verses. And in all my time on this wiki, they never have been. If that were the case, the calc group could comftorably manipulate the statistics of characters into what they want with complete disregard for what normal users think.

Speaking of witch. What are your thoughts on Kepekley's skepticism about Tamirel's ocean feat? I'm neutral on its result. But the feat itself kinda confuses me.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Kepekleys scepticm has been cleared by Malokabam from what I understood. He mixed up that Tarmiel and Sariel have not been in the dimension itself.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Kepekleys scepticm has been cleared by Malokabam from what I understood. He mixed up that Tarmiel and Sariel have not been in the dimension itself.

Alright.

Also, the blog needs to be updated a bit. It says the accepted end is 368 teratons. Yet the calc result itself has only 183, and 731 teratons for the Low-End. There doesn't seem to be any calc on there for 368 teratons whatsoever.

I kinda feel like more calc group imput may be needed to 100% vertify it.

 

[RavenSupreme]

The 368 result is the last one.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The 368 result is the last one.

Oh. But I must ask, what warrants dividing the result by four out of curiosity?

 

[RavenSupreme]

The initial calc assumed Estarossa was in the middle of the ocean, significantly increasing its size in all 4 directions from his middle point. The accepted end treats the feat as if Estarossa was at one Edge of the ocean and the entire size is from Edge 1 to Edge 2. I commented regarding that matter when the feat was initially calculated.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The initial calc assumed Estarossa was in the middle of the ocean, significantly increasing its size in all 4 directions from his middle point. The accepted end treats the feat as if Estarossa was at one Edge of the ocean and the entire size is from Edge 1 to Edge 2. I commented regarding that matter when the feat was initially calculated.

Ah, I see

 

[Maxnumb231]

That is a whole lot of Argumentium Ad Verbosium. Can you please condense your arguments a bit? Because you are kinda repeating yourself in that post.

Using "It's just a standard, so it absolutely must be this way" excuse is an insanely weak argument. Other verses have upward scaled with Scaling chains exactly like NNT Top-Tiers with success. Yes, it is best to have calculations take precedence to an extent, but it gets to a point when you have to reasonably upscale a character if they're far above a feat that is casually close to the next tier to begin with.

I'll re-post the scaling chain.

The One Escanor >>> Assault Mode Meliodas >>> Late Morning Escanor >>> Post-Revival Meliodas >>> Ludoshel >>> Tarmiel and Sariel= Casually 368 Teratons

LM Escanor should be At Least High 6-B, likely higher. (Though he would be borderline 6-A really)

AM Meliodas should be straight up 6-A for kicking the shit out of LM Escanor.

The One and the Deities need no explanation.

This is the most reasonable lowball that I can think up. Only AM Meliodas, The One, and The Dieties need to be full 6-A. Nothing more.

Post resurrection meliodas in his demon mark is unknown whether hes stronger than tarmiel and sariel

 

[Maxnumb231]

Also the ocean feat where most calcers used "he was at the edge" is really more of an assumption than him in the middle. What suggest he was in the corner or the edge? Like it never showed estarossa being at the edge of the dimension or else this is a confusion.

 

[ByAsura]

@Maxnumb

They make it pretty clear in some of the flashbacks that he's superior to the archangels, and there's also the stuff on Meliodas' profile that indicates he's superior to even Ludoshel.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I agree with 6-A AM Meliodas and LM Escanor.

 

[Maxnumb231]

@Maxnumb

They make it pretty clear in some of the flashbacks that he's superior to the archangels, and there's also the stuff on Meliodas' profile that indicates he's superior to even Ludoshel.

Arch angels was wary of him but i doubt it had anything to do with power at all. It can just mean meliodas was interfering Ludos plan.

 

[ByAsura]

It is to do with power, he's not just wary, he's wary of fighting him without back up. There's also tons of other statements about them being crippled by his presence in demon form, and even one scene in the manga where he blitzes Ludoshel.