NNT Physiology rework

[speedster352]

I think we can apply the new model and just remove what we agreed on (Resistance negation being a higher layer of Heat manip and the name problem for the Hellblaze Manip thing) the rest of what Mitch disagreed with is just… wrong

We need at least 3 staff to agree

 

[Makai641001]

I think Confluctor and Mitch agree with how the page is presented we need a staff member to agree with ut tho

 

[speedster352]

I think Confluctor and Mitch agree with how the page is presented we need a staff member to agree with ut tho

Elizha agreed too so the changes can be applied

 

[speedster352]

Bump

 

[speedster352]

Bump

 

[Rabbit2002]

I think Confluctor and Mitch agree with how the page is presented we need a staff member to agree with ut tho

Mitch and Confluctor didn't say they agree, only Elizha agree.

 

[speedster352]

Mitch and Confluctor didn't say they agree, only Elizha agree.

Well try showing this to the staff message walls

 

[Makai641001]

Mitch and Confluctor didn't say they agree, only Elizha agree.

Like i said i don’t think they have any problem with how the layout is presented if they don’t then let’s close this and change this layout

 

[Rabbit2002]

Like i said i don’t think they have any problem with how the layout is presented if they don’t then let’s close this and change this layout

Anyway, remind me to call some staffs tomorrow

 

[Makai641001]

Anyway, remind me to call some staffs tomorrow

Call some staff tomorrow

 

[Rabbit2002]

bump

 

[ByAsura]

It's good, but it needs to take into account the abilities added by the last CRT.

i'm not really satisfied with that answer since again it still can be higher potency and we don't give everyone under the sun resistance neg for burning someone who's resistant to fire

It's not AP, though, especially since Gerharde (someone Elaine stomped) alone can shred apart Orange Demons that are more powerful than Red Demons. She outright says that mortal flame can't burn it, and that this must be a unique type of flame (something that's hilariously obvious when it nullifies regen and doesn't stop burning unless someone powerful extinguishes it). Genuinely, what's so hard to accept?

Obviously there's NLF, but it's only suggested to be Hellblaze's unique properties in the manga.

That just means it negates the regeneration, immortality negation would be actually removing someone's immortality and killing them

Agreed.

Then they have soul manipulation via being able to kill a soul, regardless this isn't Low-Godly Regen Negation

Agreed. Regeneration is not a factor on souls, as Melascula tells Ban.

2. Only Meliodas’ Hellblaze has been shown to actually negate Ban’s Regeneration, and even then, it was only just barely, so that’s not a universal ability all

Absolutely not. This is Meliodas with just a normal Enchant: Hellblaze.

A master like Monspeet is far superior at manipulation to the point of nullifying Estarossa' flames.

4. The Supreme Goddess can regenerate from the complete destruction of her physical body, so Hellfire killing her would not be Low-Godly regen negation, it just means Meliodas and Zeldris destroyed her soul this time, which as we know, Demons can do, so yeah, no to even a possibly Low-Godly Regen Negation

Agreed.

5. No Existence Erasure for Goddesses, them destroying both body and soul is not EE at all, it’s just soul destuction, EE is based on literally erasing someone from existence specifically

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with you here.

 

[speedster352]

It's good, but it needs to take into account the abilities added by the last CRT.

It's not AP, though, especially since Gerharde (someone Elaine stomped) alone can shred apart Orange Demons that are more powerful than Red Demons. She outright says that mortal flame can't burn it, and that this must be a unique type of flame (something that's hilariously obvious when it nullifies regen and doesn't stop burning unless someone powerful extinguishes it). Genuinely, what's so hard to accept?

Obviously there's NLF, but it's only suggested to be Hellblaze's unique properties in the manga.

Agreed.

Agreed. Regeneration is not a factor on souls, as Melascula tells Ban.

Absolutely not. This is Meliodas at his weakest with just a normal Enchant: Hellblaze.

Someone like Monspeet is far superior at manipulation to the point of nullifying Meliodas' flames.

Agreed.

Neutral.

So we can add back resistance negation for hellblaze? Hellblaze killed the godeses in the horn which was just a soul and godeses already have low godly regeneration overtime of course same applies to SD. Actually demons can only destroy souls by eating if they can do it without eating souls why eat them in the first place? You should already know this. Also you haven’t debunked makai or rabbits points

 

[ByAsura]

So we can add back resistance negation for hellblaze?

Imo, yes.

Hellblaze killed the godeses in the horn which was just a soul and godeses already have low godly regeneration overtime of course same applies to SD.

Nothing suggests it's combat applicable. In fact, the Archangels have to regenerate from their graces, and we never see a dead Goddess from the Holy War era in Cursed By Light, despite their deaths occurring before the Goddesses even sacrificing themselves.

Actually demons can only destroy souls by eating if they can do it without eating souls why eat them in the first place?

This is Meliodas and Zeldris, not a fodder Demon, and they're blasting someone that's weak to Darkness. So the logic is pretty sound.

You should already know this. Also you haven’t debunked makai or rabbits points

I kind of did by saying that it's not combat applicable.

 

[speedster352]

Imo, yes.

Nothing suggests it's combat applicable. In fact, the Archangels have to regenerate from their graces, and we never see a dead Goddess from the Holy War era in Cursed By Light, despite their deaths occurring before the Goddesses even sacrificing themselves.

This is Meliodas and Zeldris, not a fodder Demon, and they're blasting someone that's weak to Darkness. So the logic is pretty sound.

I kind of did by saying that it's not combat applicable.

Yes but their souls still remained also the goddess clan in cursed by the light have their bodies back. Even Melascula has to eat a soul to destroy it completely.

 

[ByAsura]

Whose souls, the Archangels?

Read my words more thoroughly: dead Goddess from the Holy War. I'm not referring to the ones who sacrificed their bodies in the Holy War, I'm referring to the ones we see dying during the Holy War (of which there are lots).

Melascula isn't the 2nd and 3rd strongest Demons.

 

[speedster352]

It's good, but it needs to take into account the abilities added by the last CRT.

It's not AP, though, especially since Gerharde (someone Elaine stomped) alone can shred apart Orange Demons that are more powerful than Red Demons. She outright says that mortal flame can't burn it, and that this must be a unique type of flame (something that's hilariously obvious when it nullifies regen and doesn't stop burning unless someone powerful extinguishes it). Genuinely, what's so hard to accept?

Obviously there's NLF, but it's only suggested to be Hellblaze's unique properties in the manga.

Agreed.

Agreed. Regeneration is not a factor on souls, as Melascula tells Ban.

Absolutely not. This is Meliodas with just a normal Enchant: Hellblaze.

A master like Monspeet is far superior at manipulation to the point of nullifying Estarossa' flames.

Agreed.

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with you here.

So can demons get limited memory manipulation or something on those lines since they gain memories by eating souls?

 

[speedster352]

Whose souls, the Archangels?

Read my words more thoroughly: dead Goddess from the Holy War. I'm not referring to the ones sacrificed in the Holy War, I'm referring to the ones we see dying during the Holy War (of which there are lots).

Melascula isn't the 2nd and 3rd strongest Demons.

She is the best soul manipulator in the demon realm and can manipulate countless souls of the dead

 

[ByAsura]

That's not memory manipulation.

She is the best soul manipulator in the demon realm and can manipulate countless souls of the dead

Manipulator, not destroyer.

 

[Aether2734]

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with you here.

Sorry gotta disagree with this,
They're really erasing them without any trace, also be state they're trapped in between life and death before really got erased.

It's even can affect to erase non living being golem like albion, that mean only soul destruction mitch said clearly not true.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with you here.

If it's not EE, should it transmutation ? Demon's body converted into energy/magic and disapear.

 

[ByAsura]

Sorry gotta disagree with this,
They're really erasing them without any trace, also be state they're trapped in between life and death before really got erased.

It's even can affect to erase non living being golem like albion, that mean only soul destruction mitch said clearly not true.

Actually, I forgot that it rots Demons down to their magic. This seems good.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Sorry gotta disagree with this,
They're really erasing them without any trace, also be state they're trapped in between life and death before really got erased.

It's even can affect to erase non living being golem like albion, that mean only soul destruction mitch said clearly not true.

yeah, we don't even see any trace of these demons, as their flesh is converted to energy and gone

 

[speedster352]

Actually, I forgot that it rots Demons down to their magic. This seems good.

And there soul too there is a q and a from nakaba for high ranking godeses

 

[ByAsura]

I know about the soul part. That's the thing being contested.

 

[speedster352]

I know about the soul part. That's the thing being contested.

It still counts as EE

 

[Rabbit2002]

It still counts as EE

they already have the soul destruction via purge so there's no need for it again

 

[Makai641001]

Agreed.

How would destroying the horn be negating regen if it’s not about regen but Immortality

Agreed. Regeneration is not a factor on souls, as Melascula tells Ban.

When was it stated they killed her soul she should still be alive the graces are still there they most likely nullified her regen at that moment i don’t think we should assume Soul destruction when said ability is shown to be regen negation
Also when did a Demon even destroy a Soul without eating it ? I dont remember it

Agreed.

As long as her concsiousness still exist she should be able to reform her body no matter what

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with you here.

Actually Ark leaves nothing behind when it is aimed at demon it destroying souls would Just indicate higher degree of EE

 

[ByAsura]

Destroying the soul and existence erasure aren't mutually inclusive.

We originally had EE for Demons eating souls, but it was removed for not being EE.

On the other hand, I think destroying the body, soul and magic all at once could count.

 

[speedster352]

I know about the soul part. That's the thing being contested.

• Existence Erasure and Power Nullification: According to Q&A, Ark of high ranking goddess can destroy both physical body and soul, it also rots away magic as well[30].
• This is what ark does it was agreed previously by you even

 

[speedster352]

Destroying the soul and existence erasure aren't mutually inclusive.

We originally had EE for Demons eating souls, but it was removed for not being EE.

On the other hand, I think destroying the body, soul and magic all at once could count.

That’s what it does

 

[Makai641001]

I know about the soul part. That's the thing being contested.

Read the EE page it states soul destruction would be a higher dégrée of ee

 

[Makai641001]

Destroying the soul and existence erasure aren't mutually inclusive.

We originally had EE for Demons eating souls, but it was removed for not being EE.

On the other hand, I think destroying the body, soul and magic all at once could count.

That’s not could it’s SHOULD it leaves nothing behind Which is EE in itself and destroying mind or souls at the same Time is just a higher degree of EE

 

[ByAsura]

• Existence Erasure and Power Nullification: According to Q&A, Ark of high ranking goddess can destroy both physical body and soul, it also rots away magic as well[30].
• This is what ark does it was agreed previously by you even

Yeah, and I'm realising just destroying souls isn't EE. Again, this was something we had previously and removed.

Read the EE page it states soul destruction would be a higher dégrée of ee

No, what it says is that destroying the soul shouldn't be assumed to be the default.

 

[Makai641001]

Yeah, and I'm realising just destroying souls isn't EE. Again, this was something we had previously and removed.

No, what it says is that destroying the soul shouldn't be assumed to be the default.

Oh ok as you can see it isn’t what is used

 

[ByAsura]

How would destroying the horn be negating regen if it’s not about regen but Immortality

This is in reference to negating Ban's regeneration. We weren't discussing the horn.

As for the Horn itself, I still say the Goddess' regular regen isn't combat applicable since we haven't seen a Goddess come back after they died in the Holy War. Also, the fact that the Archangels have to regenerate from their Graces after their astral forms are destroyed (which substantiates Zeldris' capability to destroy souls, since Mael blasted away Tarmiel to the point where he couldn't use his non-Grace regen) rather than just regaining their bodies normally via possession.

Edit: On second thought, I don't think it substantiates it. Ludoshel did the same just by degrading, so I'm guessing they need to have an astral form just to regen without Graces in the first place.

But, I also think this shows that Meliodas and Zeldris would at least need to destroy her astral form instead of negating regen.

Also when did a Demon even destroy a Soul without eating it ? I dont remember it

Zel and Mel can negate curses and shit. I'm just saying it's not out there.

As long as her concsiousness still exist she should be able to reform her body no matter what

According to what?

 

[Rabbit2002]

I guess I agree with By Asura on this point, we'll probably need to wait for a better feat for that in 4KoA later, but since hellblaze can negate regen, so can it have immortal neg type 3?

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think it works that way, but I could be wrong.

 

[Rabbit2002]

It can be used on Ban, who has a type 3 immo, it has been shown to nullify Ban's regen, which thanks to his immortality.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think it's immortality nullification unless it actually has the ability to nullify the thing that keeps him alive (again, could be wrong, this is just my recollection from another thread).

For example, Melascula wouldn't get negation for her acid melting Ban for all eternity.