Nights upgrade 2-B-2 Nightmarish Boogaloo

[ElixirBlue]

Doesn't the "possibility rating" exist for this reason?

Owl uses the word "World" to describe the Human universe and Dreams. As pointed out, the dreams are unquantifiable, meaning there is no evidence it's less than universe.

But since Owl uses a generic word to describe both, that's where the "possibility rating" comes in.

 

[Mephistus]

@Mephistus
We cannot scale from Jung's own philosophy, just what has been explicitly stated or shown within the story itself. Doing otherwise would also be strongly against our standard conventions.

Yuji Naka: He is one of the psychologists who followed Jung's thoughts. He too defined dream elements as much as Jung, and showed us "another world" which we called the "Dream World." NiGHTS also reflects the thoughts of scholars who researched these dreams.

_______________________


They call the Night Dimension the collective unconsciousness explicitly in the interview. Jung literally made the term collective unconsciousness.

The collective psyche is the same thing as collective unconsciousness by name in Jung's work, individual psyche itself is a universe as per Jung's definition in the quoted part above.

With as many people dreaming on Earth, you get billions of universes collectively in the (higher) dimension.

 

[Antvasima]

Somebody should preferably ask AKM and Sera to comment here again regarding what they think. You should also tell them that I would appreciate the help.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Doesn't the "possibility rating" exist for this reason?
Owl uses the word "World" to describe the Human universe and Dreams. As pointed out, the dreams are unquantifiable, meaning there is no evidence it's less than universe.

But since Owl uses a generic word to describe both, that's where the "possibility rating" comes in.

Owl uses the term to describe a Universe, NiGHTS dimension is A Dream, it is consistently referred to as a World, other dreams are referred to as a very similar mean to the way NiGHTS dimension is treated.

so unless they debunk universal nights dimension, this little game of tag is over.

 

[Theuser789]

Somebody should preferably ask AKM and Sera to comment here again regarding what they think. You should also tell them that I would appreciate the help.

Why? We already asked them last thread and they agreed with possibly, nothing changed at all, this is uneeded, I can even quote them if that's needed

 

[Genericstickman]

It's better to ask again just to be safe

 

[Mephistus]

AKM sama: I'm not opposed to a possibly rating. I would've just liked all of it to be more convincing.

Sera EX: I think "Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" is enough.

Here

 

[Sera_EX]

I think we should go by what was agreed upon in the universal size thread since I said more than once that the size of the worlds would be what determines if it can even reach Low 2-C, let alone 2-B.

 

[GoldenBoyBlue]

 

[Theuser789]

I think we should go by what was agreed upon in the universal size thread since I said more than once that the size of the worlds would be what determines if it can even reach Low 2-C, let alone 2-B.

Some already fits those standards already and even the opposition agrees they are low 2-C for some, it's just the other dreams people aren't getting

 

[Antvasima]

I think we should go by what was agreed upon in the universal size thread since I said more than once that the size of the worlds would be what determines if it can even reach Low 2-C, let alone 2-B.

Okay. Does that mean that Medeus and my own interpretation are correct here, or have we misunderstood?

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

welcome to the shadow realm jimbo I just described it above. let's let sera say it for herself.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know what "jimbo" means, but it sounds like something derogative, so make an effort to stay polite and respectful in the future especially to the staff.

 

[00potato]

You don't need to be so sensitive Jimbo. He was just having a bit of fun, no harm likely intended.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm not sure what Medeus is arguing against.

 

[Theuser789]

The dreams being universal and I guess the meaning of "world", tbh I just want this to end

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Ant Jimbo comes from a show called Jimmy Neutron, and is what his father calls him.

Regardless, any hostility or shade needs to stop so we can reach a proper conclusion without much more hassle.

 

[Mephistus]

Other stuff about being beyond space and time for the psyche by Jung in the same text above I feel the need to bring up:

"The nature of the psyche reaches into obscurities far beyond the scope of our understanding. It contains as many riddles as the universe with its galactic systems, before whose majestic configurations only a mind lacking in imagination can fail to admit its own insufficiency. This extreme uncertainty of human comprehension makes the intellectualistic hubbub not only ridiculous, but also deplorably dull. If, therefore, from the needs of his own heart, or in accordance with the ancient lessons of human wisdom, or out of respect for the psychological fact that "telepathic" perceptions occur, anyone should draw the conclusion that the psyche, in its deepest reaches, participates in a form of existence beyond space and time, and thus partakes of what is inadequately and symbolically described as "eternity"—then critical reason could counter with no other argument than the "non liquet" of science."

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

I do not know what "jimbo" means, but it sounds like something derogative, so make an effort to stay polite and respectful in the future especially to the staff.

...you need to get on other websites more...

 

[Infiniverse_of_Oblivion]

@Omnitraxius

"a person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments."

I'm not even playing Devil's advocate here.I'm literally just stating the fact that you can have a realm be a universe without it being called as such as Sera has confirmed.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I do not know what "jimbo" means, but it sounds like something derogative, so make an effort to stay polite and respectful in the future especially to the staff.

no it's a nickname slang, nothing harmful.

 

[Genericstickman]

It comes from Jimmy Neutron

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

Oh boo- banned

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

if medeus agreed to 2-C (Universe Level) NiGHTS Dimension then he has thus conceded to the very thing he's up against since the main proposition is that NiGHTS dimension is a dream itself and it's deemed a universe/world so it's a perfect tandem example for the size of other dreams which are also called worlds, even excluding that..........NiGHTS Dimension, Reala's, Wizeman's and The other Nightmaren Realms/Dimensions are of the dreams on the plane of dreams which are a container for dreams. (which we know they're referred to as dreams, nightmares and worlds) so yeah as to what seraex said what exactly "is" medeus arguing about and against.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

also since NiGHTS Into Dreams cosmology is contributed from our world and our dreams that would apply as well if that helps.

 

[Antvasima]

You don't need to be so sensitive Jimbo. He was just having a bit of fun, no harm likely intended.

If you and him are referring to any of the highly derogatory versions linked below, that is definitely a bannable offense:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jimbo

 

[Antvasima]

@Ant Jimbo comes from a show called Jimmy Neutron, and is what his father calls him.

Regardless, any hostility or shade needs to stop so we can reach a proper conclusion without much more hassle.

Okay. That doesn't seem so bad, but Urban Dictionary seems to describe it otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as a standard we do not apply our higher tiers simply due to references to either Platonism, Jungian psychology, or any other transcendental philosophy. We strictly go by what has been established within the stories themselves and sometimes their guidebooks.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure what Medeus is arguing against.

That the mention of "worlds" should refer to full-sized universes. Your input would be very appreciated.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Issue is that we've already established that "world" is referring to a full universe, as Mephistus has posted repeatedly. A standard is something we can measure things by, not something that rules over everything even if it has evidence suggesting otherwise.

If they're called worlds, and the term is synonymous with universe from how it's used in the franchise, within the game, and by the developers themselves as well, then that's just how it is. What you think and try to impose doesn't matter if the context goes against you.

 

[Antvasima]

Please reiterate the times that "world" has been used to refer to a universe. What I remember seeing was not convincing to me.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

You don't need to be so sensitive Jimbo. He was just having a bit of fun, no harm likely intended.

If you and him are referring to any of the highly derogatory versions linked below, that is definitely a bannable offense:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jimbo

UrbanDictionary are you serious my guy?, it's none of those and It can picked by context jimbo now ain't this just quacking crazy?

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Anyway, as a standard we do not apply our higher tiers simply due to references to either Platonism, Jungian psychology, or any other transcendental philosophy. We strictly go by what has been established within the stories themselves and sometimes their guidebooks.

the game magazine in the booklet of the sega saturn game applies the collective unconscious to the cosmology, it's not a reference, a reference would be "string theory soup" from mario which has only the name and has an entirely different purpose than cosmology or "the republic" which in verse just attributes to the universe and not the realm of being and such. In this case, the material and the words of gods utterly agree and point to the same thing and it's consistennt as well, it is unacceptable to apply something as pretty out there in our faces as this not to the cosmology (I made a thread of NiGHTS regarding the conceptual business, he's gonna get types 2-1 and some other stuff too here:https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3790971#85)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, we agree on that other thread what does and doesn't qualify as Universes.

• Being called a Universe or that it mirrors the universe or describe as the size of the universe does qualify as a universe.
• Being Infinite, or Boundless in size does generally qualify as a universe.
• Being called entire alternate realities would generally qualify as being a universe.
• If they're described as entire timelines altogether, they're definitely universes.
• Although "Being separated from the boundaries of time and space" alone wouldn't always qualify as universes, if they have that detail in combination of being universe sized such as having hundreds of billions of galaxies, then they would be universes.
• Saying that it mirrors the Universe, or mirrors "The Real World" when it's larger than a planet would generally qualify as a Universe, but there still needs to be elaborate and or specific context that is on point.

But these details are not enough to be qualified as universes. Even if all of the above statements are put together

• Having a starry sky qualifies as 4-A but not 3-A or Low 2-C
• Having multiple galaxies qualifies as 3-B, but not Universal.
• Being different bodies of space isn't enough because that doesn't mean they have different timelines by default.
• Simply having time that works differently isn't enough because pocket realities with space-time anomalies are a thing.
• Simply being called world, dimension, isn't enough to prove it's a Universe even if characters call the Universe a World. Because Loopholes and Cosmology stacking are a thing that we need to be careful with.

Anyway, we cannot scale or assume the characters are multiversal just because an interview mentions Jung philosophy. There are a lot of verses that have interview mentioning Lovecraftian Theories and Cthulhu Mythos, but don't have any characters exceeding Low 2-C. Even authors don't always fully understand what a lot of these mythologies, religions, and theories are. And thus, we need to go by what is done, stated, or shown in verse rather than assume based on some vague mentioning of these topics via interviews.

Anyway, I actually re-looked at some of the new things weren't brought up, but the outcome is still the same. Collective Unconscious in short just means the memories, hopes, and dreams of everyone who ever lived. If Night Dimension is literally the one thing that's contains every other dream, and is also the one and only dream that has the universal statements, then it cannot be assumed all of those other dreams inside it are universes. That't the same thing as assuming every planet, star, or galaxy is the size of the universe and stack the Observable universe to be 2-B sized just because they're all called "Alternate Worlds".

The entire argument here that's supporting the 2-B rating is a combination of notable fallacies known as Cosmology stacking and loop holes. For example, people are doing the same thing to verses like Fire Emblem Heroes. Fire Emblem heroes has multiple statements of there existing an "Infinite number of worlds," and we do have multiple examples of those worlds being different timelines. So the cosmology of the verse is indeed 2-A with Alfador the "Creator of everything" being 2-A. But people using Loop holes to make Azura 2-A include a statement where she and Loki were inside Azura's "Dream World" with Loki stating, "In this world, there are an infinite number of worlds". And from that, people are assuming Azura's Dream world alone is 2-A sized. And the problem with that is that there's an infinite number of Azuras with there in turn existing an infinite number of dream worlds that are all parallel. So an Infinite number of 2-A sized multiverses equating to Tier 1 Fire Emblem Heroes? No, it's best if those Dream Worlds are Low 2-C individually and "The World containing Worlds" is the only thing that has the 2-A statement.

The same thing is being done here, albeit on a lesser scale. Night Dimension, which is two things; it's bigger than every other dream world put together is the one and only thing with all the Universal statements such as mirroring the Waking World. Everything else just has a bunch of flowery language such as "Being called alternate Worlds" or "Are dreams becoming reality". Worlds and Dreams aren't static words with static meanings here, and becoming true or becoming reality simply means they came into existing. It simply means they become part of reality as opposed to being turned into an entire reality without further context.

In conclusion, none of the individual Dream Worlds such as Helen or Will's dreams have any proof of being higher than 3-B, thus the don't qualify for Low 2-C individually nor does Night Dimension qualify as 2-B. The very back up that assumes it comes from the initial assumption that Night Dimension is Low 2-C sized via mirroring Waking World, then the individual Dreams are assumed to be the same size as Night Dimension just because they're called "Alternate Worlds" or "Dreams", then the loop hole gets stacked to make Night Dimension 2-B. Which would be contradictory as that would assume Waking World would have to be 2-B sized, and to keep the assumption that Helen and Will's Dream worlds are the same size would also make them 2-B as well and the constant stacking goes on.

So no, we go by what is spelled out. Night Dimension and Waking World can be either 3-A or Low 2-C sized individually, and that makes the entire cosmology either twice the baseline of 3-A or 2-C. Every other Dream World is simply 4-A to 3-B sized. Thus at least 3-A, possibly 2-C or just plain 2-C is my final conscientious.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Theuser789]

I guess we are going to just ignore everyone else and the other staff who already agreed with possibly 2-B because of text wall arguments that makes this a "battle of atricion" of a single mod that are circular or just comparassions from other verses, instead of going with literaly everyone else, sigh...

DDM didn't even adress any arguments, he just made a FE unrelated comparassions, a wrong one in that because that would just be infinitely baseline 2-A, not tier 1, debunking nothing at all, something can easily be universal in size and hold multiple other universes, that's a common example in fiction, that not a debunk but a appeal to ignorance by debunking because it can't happen, at this point it's just DDM stonewalling so a upgrade won't go trough no matter what anyone says and succeding because of his position

Rant over, I am out because it won't go nowhere because of this blatant stonewalling

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I already dunked you on another thread about jung's theory. so i'mma just post it again

, I conversed with a few users about conceptual manipulation and whether or not certain things classify as a certain ability or type. I asked about carl jung's collective unconscious/jungian archetypes theory was in the mix and it was agreed with ultima reality it could be treated similarlly/like plato's theory, so this thread in due part is a response to this here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3777057#6let's start by using these interviews: http://www.nightsintodreams.com/?p=1343 and http://shmuplations.com/nights/ and https://easternmind.tumblr.com/post/254302563/heydaysofnaka

Powerful Interviews With Their Questions And Answers For NiGHTS
What were some of the challenges of creating this "dream world"?

Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?

Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time. [1] Nidcom: NiGHTS into Dreams has a lot of symbolism, you and Sonic Team did a lot of research into dream studies and Jung's Dream Archetypes. It is speculated that each character in NiGHTS is influenced by a specific Archetype. What Archetype inspired NiGHTS, if any?

Yuji Naka: NiGHTS, a hero, originated in "Shadow" which means another side of the self as defined by Jung in his dream definitions. Elliot and Claris, who have strayed from the dream world, originated from Jung's Animus and Anima. Persona items that appear in the Wii version originate from Jung's dream theory, too.

Nidcom: Many years ago I read an interview with Sonic Team where the sources of dream research were discussed. Jung and Freud were mentioned but a third name 'Friedrich Holtz' was said to be central to NiGHTS into Dreams. Can you tell us a bit about this man and how his work influenced the game? We have tried to research Holtz for many years yet we have found little about him.

Yuji Naka: He is one of the psychologists who followed Jung's thoughts. He too defined dream elements as much as Jung, and showed us "another world" which we called the "Dream World." NiGHTS also reflects the thoughts of scholars who researched these dreams.

Nidcom: It is now well known that there was an idea for a boss called Selph. What became of this boss, why did it not make it in to the final game and what did the boss look like?

Yuji Naka: Selph is one of the original types of Jung's theory. This idea was omitted since the production period was short on time. It was thought that it would be introduced as a concealed boss, as the one defined as "Myself I could never be exceeded". Visualization of this character was made to some degree. ===About the collective conscious/unconscious/archetypes === https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/389/html

http://faculty.collin.edu/mbailey/jungianarchetypes.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=_...ungian archetypes transcend spacetime&f=false

https://www.processpsychology.com/new-articles2/Jung.pdf https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/04/13/carl-jung-on-plato-anthology/#.XfBE3uhKg2w http://www.english.hawaii.edu/criticalink/plato/terms/archetype.html http://www.philosopher.eu/texts/carl-jung-summary/

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Jung/collective_unconscious.html

Jungian Archetypes Are Platonic Forms: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype#Jungian_archetypes And https://medium.com/@DanSanchezV/gods-platonic-forms-archetypes-and-superheroes-da7e7fc7a00d And http://www.charlesdominey.com/documents/thesis_complete.pdf and http://www.actforlibraries.org/carl-g-jung-archetypes-of-the-collective-unconscious/ and https://www.myss.com/free-resources/sacred-contracts-and-your-archetypes/appendix-plato/ and https://www.processpsychology.com/new-articles2/Jung.pdf and https://appliedjung.com/complex-archetype-symbol/ and http://mlwi.magix.net/neoplatonism.htm and https://www.beautyanalysis.com/research/perfect-face/archetype-theory/

How it applies to NiGHTS
well it's clear that the bosses are jungian archetypes, but significantly so, NiGHTS is a Jungian Archetype Of The Shadows.

Wizeman can create things like this individualize consciousness and so on so forth things like that https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=5795 So Wizeman could be considered conceptual or have Conceptual abilities

the "dreams" in Nights Into Dreams Are Dreams/Worlds Of Both Collective Conscious And/Or Unconscious Let's also note Nights Dimensions is specifically mentioned as one of these assets as a dream in a plane of dreams in this scan https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0 At the same time, Wizeman said he could warp, destroy all of this AND he created Nightmare, which contains every nightmare ever dreamed as a separate reality. https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=1h37m https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=2532

NiGHTS also survived after beating Wizeman despite being told such an event would kill him, So Conceptual Anchoring?

so that's concepts/ideas that NiGHTS and his adversaries can warp. Overall Conceptual Manipulation should be considered, it's practical, ethical and clear as day.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Why does Antvasima keep copy and pasting " I agree with Medeus. Thank you for helping out." every time Medeus repeats himself with the same points that have been debunked?

Are we going to ignore what possible ratings are for?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Imagine, why are you posting that here, with a large wall of text?

Reply with 2 sentences.