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Nights upgrade 2-B-2 Nightmarish Boogaloo

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Also, sorry for double post, Sera literaly made a thread about the """standards""" that you are saying Medeus is following to know what is correct, and other staff pretty much agreed with arguments been made here or similar like the paralel world thing, so following standards that are being questioned isn't that much
 
>Not getting into anything but that's flat out wrong about the parallel worlds.A parallel world that's intended to mirror our world and has a starry sky is absolutely a universe unless contradicted.What possible space in our reality has a 4-A realm and is referred to as a world more so than our universe,it cannot be the planet as the planet won't contain a 4-A realm.

>If it mirrors our world and has a starry sky it would be undoubtedly a parrallel universe.Assuming otherwise with this context would be flat out wrong without contradicting context.I really cannot fathom the fact that the creators would intended the the Dream World to mirror only a 4-A space in our reality as opposed to the entire universe.

>@Elixir Also I wouldn't keep on using the Majora's Mask argument to support your claims because Termina was called a parrallel universe so the two are false equivalent in this scenario.
 
I thought that the staff members in Sera's thread largely agreed that the universal size usually should be specified to count.
 
"Parallel World doesn't mean parallel universes by default. Plenty of verses are rated as simply Tier 4 despite numerous uses of the word "Parallel World". If there was more context that the words are parallel to the Universe, then sure. But simply being parallel to each other is not proof of them being universes. Castlevania, most "Worlds" in Legend of Zelda, Dark Aether, some of the various parallel worlds in Kirby, they all make use of the term "Parallel World" and non of them were excepted as universes."

yes it does, you need to prove the absence of evidence NiGHTS Into Dreams doesn't apply.

"Nights is set in the world of dreams. Not dreams themselves, or the all the levels would keep changing location all the time and you'd never be able to tell what's going on. And just as you'd be about to complete it, you'd wake up. No, Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams called the Night dimension. According to Sonic Team's thinking this is a dimension that exists close to our corporal three-dimensional environment. It has, they say, no shape. Sega are taking their tip from German Parapsychologist Freidrich Hoist's text "Traum", which states Night Dimension is shaped by the constantly shifting input of the collective human conscious (or unconscious that would be) present."

This quote from this sca once again is 100% referring to the entire world containing all the dreams as the one and only thing that's actually mirroring the universe. This 100% goes against all of your arguments and 100% supports my claim."

it just said it's a different dimension and one of the dreams in the plane of dreams.

Nidcom: Many years ago I read an interview with Sonic Team where the sources of dream research were discussed. Jung and Freud were mentioned but a third name 'Friedrich Holtz' was said to be central to NiGHTS into Dreams. Can you tell us a bit about this man and how his work influenced the game? We have tried to research Holtz for many years yet we have found little about him.


Yuji Naka: He is one of the psychologists who followed Jung's thoughts. He too defined dream elements as much as Jung, and showed us "another world" which we called the "Dream World." NiGHTS also reflects the thoughts of scholars who researched these dreams.

Confirmed it's another world, other dreams are referred to as worlds, there's no "entire" anywhere, you're being dishonest bro. Everyone in the NGHTS series refers to the "world" that the humans come from as interchangebly called reality / reality / reality / the real world / waking world / world . World means universe in context. calling it a pocket universe or a planet has no evidence or validity whatsoever jimbo.
 
Antvasima said:
I thought that the staff members in Sera's thread largely agreed that the universal size usually should be specified to count.
Click to expand...
They said if context showed universal then it is one, not necessayly directely stated it to be universes, which has been agreed here and by even other staff members, DDM was the only one who said it like you and other staff members disagreed with his notions like the "mirror world" argument

Like if there's alot of galaxies and other statments like "Extra-dimensional" or similar like that were universal

The point is that the "standard" DDM is following were questioned in the prior test by other staff members, same who agreed with the proposal, DDM is literaly the only one who is still arguing by in his own words repeating himself
 
There are many structures and cosmologies that are considered universes without having to be specifically be stated to be universes.Going by this logic the logic of the opposition...many profiles would have to be altered due to their cosmologies not being directly stated to be universes despite context showing they are.
 
I seem to recall that Kepekley agreed in Sera's thread that something either needs to have its size specified or be called a universe to count.
 
In any case, a dream simply being called a "world" is nowhere near enough evidence to assume universal size. I am pretty sure that other staff members would agree with me about that.
 
Infiniverse of Oblivion said:
There are many structures and cosmologies that are considered universes without having to be specifically be stated to be universes.Going by this logic the logic of the opposition...many profiles would have to be altered due to their cosmologies not being directly stated to be universes despite context showing they are.
Click to expand...

That's not a valid point, arguing from another instance doesn't prove whether an argument is right or wrong. This is about NiGHTS, and based on the presented evidence, the notion Dreams being universes are vague at most

(Mind you, playing devil's advocate)
 
But if the Human Universe is called a World and word world was used on nothing lesser, wouldn't act as a replacement of the word universe by its useage?

CB703DA7-54EE-4E41-91AF-94DCDD21F798
 
No, we cannot assume that the word is always used the same way. Sorry.
 
Antvasima said:
I seem to recall that Kepekley agreed in Sera's thread that something either needs to have its size specified or be called a universe to count.
Click to expand...
That is the agreed-upon standard, yes.

A 3-A sized dimension needs either:

A. To be described as a universe and be shown to contain galaxies.

B. To be stated to contain at least several billions of galaxies.
 
1. No, Keepley also agreed with the mirror argument, most of the posts weren't had to say universe to be universal because of context

2. Saying "It's just using "world"" is a broad generalizarition of the pro arguments, of course just calling world isn't enough, there's way more arguments then that and calling it just that is ignorance and mind you it was a staff who proposed possibly 2-B and other staff were fine with it

At this point nothing new is being said and no "agreement" just DDM saying no and we stonewalling by repeating arguments when most people already agreed with possibly 2-B

It's literal just DDM who in his words is repeating himself, it's stonewalling
 

That's not a valid point, arguing from another instance doesn't prove whether an argument is right or wrong. This is about NiGHTS, and based on the presented evidence, the notion Dreams being universes are vague at most

(Mind you, playing devil's advocate)

Except I'm not giving the point about which side is right or wrong.You just misunderstood that I'm saying that just because a realm or dream in this instances isn't called a universe doesn't disqualify it being one.If it's vague as you say disprove the supporting arguments presented and support your claim,saying it's vague without actual arguments is meaningless tbh.
 
So I got a question:

Is Medeus's opinion the only one that matters? Not the other staff who proposed the possibly 2-B rating?
 
Except I'm not giving the point about which side is right or wrong.You just misunderstood that I'm saying that just because a realm or dream in this instances isn't called a universe doesn't disqualify it being one.If it's vague as you say disprove the supporting arguments presented and support your claim,saying it's vague without actual arguments is meaningless tbh.

Clearly you don't understand the term "playing Devils Advocates". As far as I'm aware, I wasn't arguing for a side.

I don't particularly care for NiGHTS but attacks towards others is unwarranted

That should of been clarification as it is. Anyways, I don't care for NiGHTS, I do have a friend who does but wants nothing to do with here
 
It's less about who's opinion matters, and more about who's input is most following the wiki's very guidelines and standards. But it does say there needs to be general approval from Admins, Discussion Mods, and/or Bureaucrats in order for a content revision to be approved in our Discussion Rules.

Though, at the moment, I'm the only staff member who appears to be reading the text word by word and providing constructive texts to counter the constructive texts as opposed to a few others who are mostly skimming.

Anyway, they don't need to be called universes, but I actually have listed out several billeted points on the other thread where it just needs at least one. If they're stated to be universes or that they're parallel to "the universe", it qualifies. If they're individually stated to be Infinite or at least innumerable or endless in size, they should count as universes. If they're stated to be entire timelines, then they're definitely universes. If they're entire alternate realities (Emphasize on the word reality having either entire or alternate realities being plural), then they're universes.

But stuff like them being called "Another world", "Alternate World", or "A world created from your imagination" is not enough even if they're larger than planet sized. Most 4-A and 3-B feats would be 3-A or above to the point where a lot of those Tier 4 characters would be greatly limited if we just assumed these things based on these small details without context.

None of the dream worlds actually use the word "Parallel worlds" they just say "Worlds"; only the entirety of Night Dimension has "Mirror" or "Parallel" as adjectives. Thus, Night Dimension + Waking World appears to be 2-C at best.
 
So you are saying that the other staff who agreed with possibly 2-B don't matter then? Or that they didn't do it right? Even though they were looking into it as much as you like AKM sama? That sounds wrong. Come on, people are just repeating themselfs and stuff, a agreement has been reached, not staff member arguing in circles and saying the others don't matter, at this point it's not a agreement, but only a opinion of one mod mattering, not even the others

Like, this is stonewalling, saying you are the only one seeing it because they agreed with possibly 2-B when prior you were appealing to them, there's no need for this circular debating and hundred of posts
 
I said at the moment; and no, never said their input didn't matter. AKM Sama simply said fine with it more so as not wanting to debate rather than agreeing it being the most accurate outcome. But overall, he actually did generally agree with me having the most likely cause. Antvasima also agrees with me, so he counts. Sera for example seemed to be mostly skimming the arguments which that's what she basically said. She's busy and overworked, so I understand that; but still.

It's not stonewalling, it's doing my job. Nothing more and nothing less.
 
dude parallel worlds and worlds are shown as interchangeables, first of all prove specifically parallel world and worlds aren't universes

actually the dreams are reflected of their view on reality within their hearts (which goes in tandem which jung's universals which the cosmology follows and are way more than enough for universal size), I actually remember NiGHTS and Owl saying that to the kids in Journey Of Dreams lmfao, it ain't just any random kind of dream so you're kind of beat jimbo.
 
Yeah no, you said you were the only one who looked into it, and most weren't even looking, thus you are the only one "relevant". Don't try to give motivations of people by trying to twist it in your favor, he said it was fine, he just wanted it to be more convicing, thus possibly, he did not say that, stop giving people motices they haven't said

Ant said he was neutral and he does seen to be skimming since he is overworked, so if Sera's isn't looking into it that much thus her proposition isn't as "relevant as your neither is he in your logic

Stonewalling is keeping arguing circular arguments and repeating yourself, even staff can do it which you are doing, it's not a "job", it's too look what is right or wrong, which was done and people accepted it, yet you are still arguing it, thus stonewalling
 
All I'm doing is what I literally have to, I'm hardly doing anything I want to do on this thread. I dislike circular arguments or being and not a big fan of being the only staff member writing long posts. But people are literally making me; I only judge based on actual evidence or context and not based on high demand; that's how we do things. And yes, he does usually just skim due to his workload, but he actually has read Mephistus' recent post and said he doesn't really see enough evidence. Azathoth would be saying the same thing if he was still here.
 
No they aren't forcing you anything, if you don't want other staff can and already have seen this and have accepted possibly 2-B, you are not the only staff here capable of seeing what's right or wrong, so you should trust them

Sera and AKM sama had also seen other arguments and thought possibly was alright, you should trust them if you truly dislike that, otherwise people are going to say stonewalling because it sure looks like It

Don't appeal to a assumption of somebody who hasn't even read this thread by guessing he would do so, I can say the same to anyone about anything
 
A few things:

That is the agreed-upon standard, yes.

A 3-A sized dimension needs either:

A. To be described as a universe and be shown to contain galaxies.

B. To be stated to contain at least several billions of galaxies.

What Sera said above seems to verify that Medeus and my own interpretation of this subject is correct.

Medeus is just trying to be helpful and do his job in an appropriate manner, yes, which is very appreciated. This argument is not fun at all for either of us.

"World" in this case to me simply means a dream of variable unspecified size, likely usually quite limited if we go by real world dreams.

Azathoth was usually very critical of this sort of thing, yes.
 
Sera was the one who proposed the possibly 2-B

Yes, but when other people agree with a proposal including other staff then there's no need to keep going on and on and on...nobody is forced to do anything when other staff can and has said they thoughts, it makes as if his judment is more important then the rest

The argument isn"t "it uses world so universe", it is it uses world meaning a actual universe in the same setence by the same person when also talking about the dreams, a setence: "there's my world and there's your world" and the first one refers to a universe than the second one would as well, that's the argument, don't strawman it

Let's not appeal to a oppinion which we wouldn't even know he would have or not, that's assuming hypotheticals

Basicaly most users and staff agrees with "possibly 2-B" thid discussion is going nowhere at all, you both don't want to keep arguing, so there's no need to keep going at all outside of stonewalling
 
Gonna get to the rest later but.

Speaking of what Jung himself had to say about an individual dream and an individual person's psyche being a single universe; the game devs said they directly use his work:

"It would all be so much simpler if only we could deny the existence of the psyche. But here we are with our immediate experiences of something that is—something that has taken root in the midst of our measurable, ponderable, three-dimensional reality, that differs mysteriously from this in every respect and in all its parts, and yet reflects it. The psyche could be regarded as a mathematical point and at the same time as a universe of fixed stars. It is small wonder, then, if, to the unsophisticated mind, such a paradoxical being borders on the divine. If it occupies no space, it has no body. Bodies die, but can something invisible and incorporeal disappear? What is more, life and psyche existed for me before I could say "I," and when this "I" disappears, as in sleep or unconsciousness, life and psyche still go on, as our observation of other people and our own dreams inform us. Why should the simple mind deny, in the face of such experiences, that the "soul" lives in a realm beyond the body? I must admit that I can see as little nonsense in this so-called superstition as in the findings of research regarding heredity or the instincts."

http://the-eye.eu/public/concen.org...(Collected Works of C. G. Jung, Volume 8).pdf

There's more in there.
 
If I understood her correctly above, she seems to have changed her mind, but I may have misinterpreted.
 
Antvasima said:
A few things: That is the agreed-upon standard, yes.
A 3-A sized dimension needs either:

A. To be described as a universe and be shown to contain galaxies.

B. To be stated to contain at least several billions of galaxies.
Click to expand...
What Sera said above seems to verify that Medeus and my own interpretation of this subject is correct.
Medeus is just trying to be helpful and do his job in an appropriate manner, yes, which is very appreciated. This argument is not fun at all for either of us.

"World" in this case to me simply means a dream of variable unspecified size, likely usually quite limited if we go by real world dreams.

Azathoth was usually very critical of this sort of thing, yes.

No he didn't, on the contrary he implies that if you guys can't debunk a universe sized nights dimension in itself then our light is the most ideal.

"That is the agreed-upon standard, yes.

A 3-A sized dimension needs either:

A. To be described as a universe and be shown to contain galaxies.

B. To be stated to contain at least several billions of galaxies."

our scans show on one dream aka night's dimension being described in context similarly to a universe, add that with the other dreams and 2-B is there.

that's not what a"world" is, a singular dream created each by children made "another world"
 
Also, most staff do not explicitly agree with this. There is me, Medeus, AKM, and Sera, with me and Medeus firmly against it, and the others not seeming committed to any particular option yet.
 
Antvasima said:
If I understood her correctly above, she seems to have changed her mind, but I may have misinterpreted.
Click to expand...
Nah, she just stated what was said in the thread she made about it, she has been saying this before she made her proposal even and even used it when making it, it doesn't feel as if she changed her mind
 
And it would be irresponsible of me and Medeus to just suddenly leave this thread and let through inaccurate tier changes. It is part of our responsibilities to not do so.
 
AKM sama and Sera do agree with "possibly", the latter and brought it up

Not saying leave, just that this isn't going nowhere and others already do, so more trust them, the other staff if you dislike going in circles, a "agreement" is supposed to be made right? Not just a mod repeating himself

Also this isn't inacurrate at all, that's just insulting the people, including staff, who have said otherwise
 
@Mephistus

We cannot scale from Jung's own philosophy, just what has been explicitly stated or shown within the story itself. Doing otherwise would also be strongly against our standard conventions.
 
Antvasima said:
And it would be irresponsible of me and Medeus to just suddenly leave this thread and let through inaccurate tier changes. It is part of our responsibilities to not do so.
Click to expand...
it's not "irresponsible" it's "just fair", you're lucky we're letting you guys get away with "possibly" anything, considering that's the real inaccuracy here, speaking of which it's not inaccurate it was intensely calculated, well observed and planned plus debated for 2 months straight and only medeus is the active opposer everyone else is neutra leaning a bit on us or downright agrees and the worst part is he's consistently failed to debunk/refute/crack down are claims, we're tired of the ad circulum, infinitum and red herring it's a bunch of bc.
 
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