Negación

[USklaverei]

I will do this to avoid being debated on the blog.

I think that has been raised before, but now we have something else to support.

Until so, the Negación is:

• Declared to be light by a trusted source
• Moves straight lines
• It is intangible and cannot be physically interacted

That would not be enough to be accepted, however, so in the novel The Spirits Are With You, it is quoted that the Negación is not reishi. (Reishi for those who don't know is the story that makes up the world of Soul Society.)

We have another thing that has been declared not to be matter of reishi, which is Auswahlen (which is also declared to be light, but has been rejected for having many undone.) Auswahlen can pass through Shokonmankuwhich is purely radiation emitted by Seki-Seki,the reason is why photons do not interact with photons.
Unlike the Auswahlen, the Negación does not have the same undone and has even more evidences for that.


Some of the undone are:

• If it has deformed here,however, this may be a result of the spatial manipulation of the Less, so I don't think it would be a total undo.

• The tips are slightly deformed to give a sense of movement.

So now I want to know the opinion of the others.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Looks interesting buut..Doubt it would be accepted so easily

 

[KazuiK]

I think the only flaw of Aushwallen was that on one of the panels it bent a little. Although I believe it is because of unconscious art but I will not bring it here ..

In the novel also states that negacion travels in a straight line.

 

[Xulrev]

Honestly, I don't see any reasonable objection to Negacion being treated as light.

It behaves as light. It is stated to be light.

The given argumentation of 'motion lines'/'artistic depiction of motion' for the light beams is pretty consistent within drawn media and acceptable to dismiss a preemptive claim.

I'm open to reading others' thoughts and see if there is any disagreement, but as-is I have no idea why it shouldn't be treated as light given it fits the crtieria.

 

[Damage3245]

> Auswahlen can pass through Shokonmanku which is purely radiation emitted by Seki-Seki,

Aren't the barriers still broken at this point?

Or is the Shokonmanku considered separate to all the other barriers Ichigo broke through? I'd be curious then as to how Ichigo broke all the others ones but not the Shokonmanku.

 

[Mephistus]

Negacion shouldn't be treated like natural light, like from the sun.

Natural light doesn't put the stuff it envelops into another spatial dimension and lift rocks and people upward against gravity.

Having those unnatural properties discredit equating it to real life light just as much as if it were deforming/bending for no reason lol.

 

[Xulrev]

The Shakonmaku is separate from those barriers; it is notably still intact but simply has a hole in it from where Ichigo broke through as Sui-Feng points out

 

[USklaverei]

> Auswahlen can pass through Shokonmanku which is purely radiation emitted by Seki-Seki,
Aren't the barriers still broken at this point?

Or is the Shokonmanku considered separate to all the other barriers Ichigo broke through? I'd be curious then as to how Ichigo broke all the others ones but not the Shokonmanku.

As we see here and here,Auswahlen is in several places, it would be kind of impossible to have so many holes.

 

[GDEM]

Well this apparently is covering patterns to be light. And since the 'undoing' has been explained, I have nothing to disagree with.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with Mephistus.

 

[Damage3245]

The comparison to Auswahlen is a bit weird.

Auswahlen has already been rejected as being lightspeed, but one of the supporting arguments being used for Negacion is that it is similar to Auswahlen?

 

[AstralKing7]

I thought all of this was disagreed upon by Matt and other staff members when a calc got made for it on a blog a year ago if I remember correctly

 

[KazuiK]

As I said above, Auswahlen was rejected only for an unconscious art.

 

[USklaverei]

The comparison to Auswahlen is a bit weird.
Auswahlen has already been rejected as being lightspeed, but one of the supporting arguments being used for Negacion is that it is similar to Auswahlen?

As I mentioned in the OP, Auswahlen was only rejected for being very inconsistent, but unlike him, the Negación is more consistent.

 

[USklaverei]

I thought all of this was disagreed upon by Matt and other staff members when a calc got made for it on a blog a year ago if I remember correctly

Man, what desperation is this? You already mentioned this 3x, you didn't realize so far that we have a new evidence for it ?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Seeing as this is literally the Auswahlen thread but without the inconsistencies, I agree.

 

[AstralKing7]

Man, what desperation is this? You already mentioned this 3x, you didn't realize so far that we have a new evidence for it ?

Didn't look new to me

 

[USklaverei]

But is

 

[IHyutto]

This seems to make sense, Negación is not reishi (matter at rest) and is not spiritual energy either, Auswahlen's feat is a good basis, as this proves that they are indeed photons. Aside from moving straight and being intangible, this should be good to go.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

Well, I was asked to participate here. So yeah, that.

For what I read in this thread, negacion would fall into acceptable being light speed with the showed scans. But since I didn't read bleach and I'm totally unaware of the contra arguments and such, I won't really agree or disagree with it for the moment.

So for now I will wait to see if someone have a contra argument with scans and such to know if this is really acceptable or not, but if the knowledgeable members about this series agree with it and there is no real, backed up contra argument, then it should be fine to use.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Auswahlen was denied because of its shape and form only, Negacion doesnt have that inconsistency, so it's not bad to go.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Seems like light to me.

 

[Naeblis495]

if Auswahlen was only rejected for it's form in 1 panel then negation should good to go .

 

[Damage3245]

There is also this panel for Negacion. That kind of distortion coming from the source makes it look a lot more like some energy beam that actual light.

 

[USklaverei]

I cited this example in OP and as I said, the Menos was distorting the space there and it may have interfered, this is the only panel that happens and this is precisely where the space is distorted.

It is not energy, it makes no sense for them to say that it is light and yet to mention that it is not reishi.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It looks like light. You can't just deny a lot of scans based in one panel of the manga

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei, what about the Caja Negacion from chapter 278? That definitely doesn't move in a way similar to actual light, yet it is based on the same principles as Negacion.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Caja Negacion is based off of its sealing aspect, not it as light.

 

[USklaverei]

Caja Negación was created by Aizen so that the Espadas can punish their subordinates or something, Negación is the light emitted by the Menos to save their companions. Although they have similar effects , they are not a variation or anything.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Are you really basing this statement off the names, Damage?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Caja Negacion is not Negacion. It's literally a man made tool used to simulate what Negacion can do not what Negacion is.

 

[Naeblis495]

agree , caga negacion have no clear ties to negation beside the name similarities.

 

[Damage3245]

Are you really basing this statement off the names, Damage?

Partially the name, and partially because the Caja Negacion releases several beams that envelop a target and whisks them away to another dimension.

I always thought they were meant to be related tbh.

 

[Naeblis495]

the "beams" of caga negacion have shadows , it is more like a physical structure enveloping the target than a beam at this point wich is not what negacion is at all

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Aizen made the Caja Negacion, they're not related.

 

[USklaverei]

That should be good to go on so I will contact Ant.

 

[Damage3245]

The list in the OP only has one of the proofs mentioned in the Laser / Light Beam calculations page. (Being called light by a trustworthy source).

According to the page just travelling in a straight line and being intangible aren't proof of lightspeed, they just allow for the possibility of it.

I don't think matching just a single one of the proofs is enough to qualify this.

And regarding Auswahlen, there isn't an explicit statement of it being made out of photons. Likewise neither does the Negacion. Not being made out of Reishi does not mean being made out of photons.

 

[Antvasima]

Damage's latest post seems to make sense to me so far. My apologies.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why in the world would most Authors say that a beam of light is also made of photons? That's like saying "this is water but it's also hydrogen and oxygen".

I'm not even sure what this made of Reishi argument even is? Even the real world elements in Bleach have Reishi in it like atoms.

As far as I can see all evidence points to it fitting the light standards of this wiki, not a single valid counter argument has been made that shows any form of contradictions.

 

[Antvasima]

The list in the OP only has one of the proofs mentioned in the Laser / Light Beam calculations page. (Being called light by a trustworthy source).

According to the page just travelling in a straight line and being intangible aren't proof of lightspeed, they just allow for the possibility of it.

What about the above?