Shinra Tensei speed of light

[Floxy178]

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check.

1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air.

To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general relativity, do not exhibit the same behavior as electromagnetic waves (including photons) when it comes to propagation through different media. Gravitational waves are not thought to interact significantly with matter in the same way that photons do.

In classical electromagnetism, the speed of light in a medium (such as air, water, or glass) can be less than its speed in a vacuum because of interactions with the atoms or molecules in that medium. This is due to the process of absorption and re-emission of photons by the atoms.

However, gravitational waves, being ripples in spacetime, are not expected to be affected in the same way by the presence of matter. In the framework of general relativity, the speed of gravitational waves is considered to be the same in a vacuum and in the presence of matter. Therefore, the speed of gravitational waves is not expected to decrease in a medium in the same manner as the speed of photons does.

Ok, still let's assume that gravitational waves exhibit the same behavior as electromagnetic waves (including photons) when it comes to propagation through different media:

Refractive index of the air at standart temperature is 1.000273 which means that we just need to divide by 1.000273 to find speed. Speed is 0.9997270745086 c.

2) I didn't get it but it was also said that speed would decrease after few microseconds. Even considering 1 microsecond, it will remain constant light speed for nearly 300 meters. Still I don't thinks it's true.

In short I want to know if I can use light speed value for calculation.

 

[karo_senpaii]

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check.

1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air.

To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general relativity, do not exhibit the same behavior as electromagnetic waves (including photons) when it comes to propagation through different media. Gravitational waves are not thought to interact significantly with matter in the same way that photons do.

In classical electromagnetism, the speed of light in a medium (such as air, water, or glass) can be less than its speed in a vacuum because of interactions with the atoms or molecules in that medium. This is due to the process of absorption and re-emission of photons by the atoms.

However, gravitational waves, being ripples in spacetime, are not expected to be affected in the same way by the presence of matter. In the framework of general relativity, the speed of gravitational waves is considered to be the same in a vacuum and in the presence of matter. Therefore, the speed of gravitational waves is not expected to decrease in a medium in the same manner as the speed of photons does.

Ok, still let's assume that gravitational waves exhibit the same behavior as electromagnetic waves (including photons) when it comes to propagation through different media:

Refractive index of the air at standart temperature is 1.000273 which means that we just need to divide by 1.000273 to find speed. Speed is 0.9997270745086 c.

2) I didn't get it but it was also said that speed would decrease after few microseconds. Even considering 1 microsecond, it will remain constant light speed for nearly 300 meters. Still I don't thinks it's true.

In short I want to know if I can use light speed value for calculation.

Link your source first for what you're saying let me see it. Then we can move on

 

[Rolgoat]

Looks fine,agree

 

[Halkum145]

AGREE FR FR

 

[Floxy178]

Link your source first for what you're saying let me see it. Then we can move on

Gravitational waves are different from electromagnetic and don't interract with charged particles. It also interracts with matter very weakly since it's weak force, difference is ummeasurably small

Also, I don't think anyone consider this while calculating a feat where character dodges a photon. In short, refractive index is more close to 1 than photon

 

[SlendVeny]

Agree

 

[Seriall001]

Looks fine,agree

 

[Amon.vl]

Agree

 

[Damage3245]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

So I disagree with this CRT. This topic has been brought up multiple times before:

Naruto: Shinra Tensei LS?

Shinra Tensei is a Gravity Wave and Gravity Waves Travel at LS. This means that Nagato/Madara/Sasuke/Hagoromo would have Light Speed Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei only. This wouldn't change their Speed though being nobody has reacted to Shinra Tensei. The closest anyone has come was 6tk...

vsbattles.com

LS Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei

Translation: "[[Shinra-tensei (All-Nature Repulsion). Ninjutsu, Keke-genkai, offensive, defensive, close range. Users:Nagato Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation! Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel...

vsbattles.com

Shinra Tensei is Light Speed (Naruto)

What the title says is true. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but Shinra Tensei is a LS attack, now whether we want to accept it as such, is a differen't story, but note prior that it scales to no one,' 'only Pain's Attack Speed with it, as nobody in the verse has been able to...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mamaroza]

I agree

 

[TaiwaneseScaler]

I agree

Say that agian lil bro

 

[Mamaroza]

Say that agian lil bro

Wdym

 

[SlendVeny]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

Pretty sure the paths draw from one power each, and Chibaku Tensei is very clearly gravity.

Also, gravity is literally just attracting force. The other one would be electromagnetic force.

 

[Floxy178]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

So I disagree with this CRT. This topic has been brought up multiple times before:

Naruto: Shinra Tensei LS?

Shinra Tensei is a Gravity Wave and Gravity Waves Travel at LS. This means that Nagato/Madara/Sasuke/Hagoromo would have Light Speed Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei only. This wouldn't change their Speed though being nobody has reacted to Shinra Tensei. The closest anyone has come was 6tk...

vsbattles.com

LS Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei

Translation: "[[Shinra-tensei (All-Nature Repulsion). Ninjutsu, Keke-genkai, offensive, defensive, close range. Users:Nagato Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation! Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel...

vsbattles.com

Shinra Tensei is Light Speed (Naruto)

What the title says is true. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but Shinra Tensei is a LS attack, now whether we want to accept it as such, is a differen't story, but note prior that it scales to no one,' 'only Pain's Attack Speed with it, as nobody in the verse has been able to...

vsbattles.com

I think these can prove that it is a shock wave generated by gravitational force

 

[Floxy178]

Also in this panel this seems obvious

 

[TaiwaneseScaler]

Wdym

You heard what I said girl

 

[Mamaroza]

You heard what I said girl

?

 

[ssgengar]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

I definitely agree that being gravity based alone doesn’t just inherently mean the attack is LS, but here we have an attack that is considered a repulsive gravitational force in the form of a shockwave. Not like other gravity based powers that increase or decrease gravity, apply gravitational properties to an ability, etc. it’s just a straight up wave.

Like sure it’s used to attract and repel, but it’s done through gravitational force. Plus it seems like other interpretations of this ability (for example the take that it’s being fired at LS but slows as it travels) are more assumptive than it just simply being a gravity wave that gets sent out.

You might also see from the link I sent that it says “the repulsive force generated by the gravitational power” which at first seemingly implies what you said about the attack just being repulsion, but this can also just be interpreted as further detailing the jutsu’s properties. After all the beginning of the description says that what’s generated in the user’s hand is a “repulsive gravitational force” meaning ST doesn’t just generate gravity at the hand that bursts and causes a repulsive force, it’s a repulsive gravitational force from start to finish.

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[karo_senpaii]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

So I disagree with this CRT. This topic has been brought up multiple times before:

Naruto: Shinra Tensei LS?

Shinra Tensei is a Gravity Wave and Gravity Waves Travel at LS. This means that Nagato/Madara/Sasuke/Hagoromo would have Light Speed Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei only. This wouldn't change their Speed though being nobody has reacted to Shinra Tensei. The closest anyone has come was 6tk...

vsbattles.com

LS Attack Speed with Shinra Tensei

Translation: "[[Shinra-tensei (All-Nature Repulsion). Ninjutsu, Keke-genkai, offensive, defensive, close range. Users:Nagato Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation! Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel...

vsbattles.com

Shinra Tensei is Light Speed (Naruto)

What the title says is true. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but Shinra Tensei is a LS attack, now whether we want to accept it as such, is a differen't story, but note prior that it scales to no one,' 'only Pain's Attack Speed with it, as nobody in the verse has been able to...

vsbattles.com

We treat it as repulsion and attraction based on kakashi deduction of the ability. Kakashi isn't necessary an expert on that stuff. It does helps that the other abilities that tendou also uses are actually gravity. I mean chibaku tensei black orb is just a huge lump of gravitational wave.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Not every single gravity power is treated as lightspeed IIRC, and Shinra Tensei isn't necessarily gravity itself. I believe that it is just treated as attractive and repulsive force; not gravity, and not inherently lightspeed.

I mean, NGL everyone in fiction that pushes stuff with the electromagnetic force would get a "lightspeed upgrade" like this, this stuff shouldn't even be given ratings

 

[Deceived3596]

Disagree FRA

We don't assume that since you use a gravitational force, it means that force contains all the properties that radiational forces have in general. We require further evidence supporting that idea, as authors, when they're making these abilities, don't usually think about hyper specifics, such as the speed of which radiation travels. It's similar to how we don't assume someone releasing a beam of light would mean that light is constructed of photons, and as such, would inherently move at the speed of light. Our light speed standards exist for this very reason.

Unless we have more evidence that supports Shinra Tensei moving at the speed of light, I can't agree with this thread.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, I really don't see the evidence for Light Speed here at all tbh.

Also, you guys are wasting your time. Nobody actually reacted to Shinra Tensei, anyway. No, not even Six Tailed Naruto. But either way, it's moot since there's no real evidence for ST moving at LS.

 

[SlendVeny]

I feel like it's kind of odd to see a wave of gravitational force and automatically assume it's different from gravitational waves.

 

[Floxy178]

Yeah, I really don't see the evidence for Light Speed here at all tbh.

Also, you guys are wasting your time. Nobody actually reacted to Shinra Tensei, anyway. No, not even Six Tailed Naruto. But either way, it's moot since there's no real evidence for ST moving at LS.

Naruto reacted actually

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Is this really different from the reason Raiton got accepted as Lightning speed?

 

[Damage3245]

Is this really different from the reason Raiton got accepted as Lightning speed?

Not every Raiton jutsu is lightning speed anyway.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Is this really different from the reason Raiton got accepted as Lightning speed?

Uh, yeah, definitely. We have standards for lightning feats being accepted as lightning speed. M3X made a blog years ago going over why some Raiton techniques meet the individual criteria. And like Damage said, that doesn't go for every single Raiton Jutsu.

This on the other hand meets none of our Light Speed standards. It is not the same.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uh, yeah, definitely. We have standards for lightning feats being accepted as lightning speed. M3X made a blog years ago going over why some Raiton techniques meet the individual criteria. And like Damage said, that doesn't go for every single Raiton Jutsu.

This on the other hand meets none of our Light Speed standards. It is not the same.

All I could find was the False Darkness calc which says it has the same properties as lightning (unless you mean the lightning creation blog, which doesn't talk about speed), just like ST has the same properties as gravitational waves.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

All I could find was the False Darkness calc which says it has the same properties as lightning (unless you mean the lightning creation blog, which doesn't talk about speed), just like ST has the same properties as gravitational waves.

Here.

 

[Floxy178]

Our light speed standards exist for this very reason.

Yes, but I don't think there are any for waves. I just found laser/light beam one.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Here.

I mean that's kinda like what I said; following the properties of real lightning.

 

[Floxy178]

Also we know that it isn't "gravitational force" because they act instantaneously(at infinity speed) at a distance and aren't waves in Newtonian physics. However Pain's attack is described as a shockwave(and was shown like that) and gravitation isn't a force but rather a wave. I think best explanation would be it is wanted to show that it is gravitational, despite being repulsive.

 

[Floxy178]

Bump

 

[Mamaroza]

Bump

 

[Floxy178]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

I agree FRA.

This is actually consistent with it completely perception blitzing characters like Gamabunta who is currently sub-relativistic. It has decent reasoning to be light speed and consistent in-universe feats.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with Deceived

 

[Mamaroza]

Bump

 

[Animus-sama]

I agree with Deceived

It's already proven that the attack is a wave and does initial damage, I don't think we have a reason to consider it as gravitational force