Nasuverse Speed Check Part 1

[Violetcyanide]

In the Inshun scans I sent you, it's stated Inshun is able to "fell (= kill)" a god or even the Buddha himself. Since, as he says, both of them are accepted as immeasurable speed, Inshun who's able to kill them "via his ability with the lance" (clearly an hyperbole), he should be comparable in speed to them.
Musashi kills a so-called "immeasurable speed" being, Inshun, without using her Zero that grants her the tier in speed. Aka Immeasurable speed Buddha ~ Immeasurable Speed Inshun =< Zero Musashi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Normal Musashi who killed Inshun.

The scan states that his spear is sharp enough to fell a god.which is a statement about how sharp his spear is or how skilled he is.nothing here states he is as fast as a Buddha.

Servant Gil has ea which can also kill the gods and Buddha themselves,but that doesn't mean he is fast enough to pull it out on someone with immeasurable speed.

Inconsistent, and thus still pointing to a whole hyperbolic argument about "skill with weapons that surpass the abilities of the gods". Taking it literally is like taking literally a statement such as "Tatsumi is so skilled in karate he could blitz a swooping hawk"

This is a verse in which you can cause dimensional refraction attacks,teleport and even dimensional travel,hit nonexistent voids,breakdown causality all with skills with weapons which are all literal as we see them function.

On what basis can you say this alone is a hyperbole?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The scan states that his spear is sharp enough to fell a god.which is a statement about how sharp his spear is or how skilled he is.nothing here states he is as fast as a Buddha.

Servant Gil has ea which can also kill the gods and Buddha themselves,but that doesn't mean he is fast enough to pull it out on someone with immeasurable speed.

Let me ask you the same thing where Musashi Zero skill stated to kill God by speed? Where is the scans which states its done by speed.

You know you people are nitpicking at this point. Mind sending scan for Musashi skill capable of killing Buddha by speed if you claim so.

This is a verse in which you can cause dimensional refraction attacks,teleport and even dimensional travel,hit nonexistent voids,breakdown causality all with skills with weapons which are all literal as we see them function.

On what basis can you say this alone is a hyperbole?

Tell me whatever you mentioned how this is immeasurable speed?

Also I am specifically talking about statement which are just hyped up without further explanation and feats. Not all statements and feats are hyperbolic.

 

[AguilaR202]

Yeah, which is inconsistent to the speeds she scales to lol

@BreezeHM, how frequently does Musashi fight people who have LS/FTL feats or statements?

How is it inconsistent when relativistic + , LS and FTL are within a similar ballpark of speed, like theres barely a 2x difference between upper rela+ and baseline FTL

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The scan states that his spear is sharp enough to fell a god.which is a statement about how sharp his spear is or how skilled he is.nothing here states he is as fast as a Buddha.

Also

The scan I sent said literally "Inshun elevated his own skill to the level of Buddha and Gods", later adding "He could fell a God or Buddha" and, taking it together and literally in the same way they did for Musashi statements, it means Inshun is comparable if not superior to them. That, or we are trying to argue that yes, Isshun skills are on par with the Gods, but exception made specifically for the speed because otherwise it would go against this misinterpretation of Musashi scaling and we can't afford it.

Spoiler: Source: Inshun profile, Bond 5

宝蔵院胤舜が極めた十文字槍の武芸が昇華した宝具。先代である胤栄が定めた表十五本の技に対し、胤舜が定めた裏十一本の技を指す。
「その槍神仏に達す」とまで謳われた胤舜が編み出した技の型であり、あらゆる敵、技への対応を可能にする。

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A Noble Phantasm that sublimates the martial arts of the cross spear mastered by Houzouin Inshun. In contrast to the front 15 techniques established by the predecessor Tanei, it refers to the back 11 techniques established by Taneshun. It is a type of technique created by Inshun, who is said "to be a match the gods and Buddha", and it is possible to deal with all enemies and techniques.

It's not how sharp his spear is, but how skilled he is

 

[Violetcyanide]

Let me ask you the same thing where Musashi Zero skill stated to kill God by speed? Where is the scans which states its done by speed.

it is stated that the both their blows are an "inescapable end" and "is incapable of being evaded" to gods and Buddha,if you can't evade an attack that means you are atleast on par with them in speed.

Unless you're telling me she paralysed then or some other hax forcing them to take the attack.

You know you people are nitpicking at this point. Mind sending scan for Musashi skill capable of killing Buddha by speed if you claim so.

Read above,the end is defined as inescapable meaning Buddha can't escapE the attack itself

Tell me whatever you mentioned how this is immeasurable speed?

You stated that the statement in question is a hyperbole,so I proved that this verse statements aren't hyperboles but literal statements.

Also I am specifically talking about statement which are just hyped up without further explanation and feats. Not all statements and feats are hyperbolic.

When 9 out 10 statements are literal,but the 10th alone is "hyperbolic" based on poor evidence.i find the text to be much more reliable.

Also

The scan I sent said literally "Inshun elevated his own skill to the level of Buddha and Gods", later adding "He could fell a God or Buddha" and, taking it together and literally in the same way they did for Musashi statements, it means Inshun is comparable if not superior to them. That, or we are trying to argue that yes, Isshun skills are on par with the Gods, but exception made specifically for the speed because otherwise it would go against this misinterpretation of Musashi scaling and we can't afford it.

No it doesn't,if we take it together it would mean"ishin is so skilled he can fell even gods or buddha"which again says nothing about his speed .

ishin skills might be on par with gods but he never attained a state similar to the above three which is what gives them their immeasurable speed.

Spoiler: Source: Inshun profile, Bond 5

宝蔵院胤舜が極めた十文字槍の武芸が昇華した宝具。先代である胤栄が定めた表十五本の技に対し、胤舜が定めた裏十一本の技を指す。
「その槍神仏に達す」とまで謳われた胤舜が編み出した技の型であり、あらゆる敵、技への対応を可能にする。

---

A Noble Phantasm that sublimates the martial arts of the cross spear mastered by Houzouin Inshun. In contrast to the front 15 techniques established by the predecessor Tanei, it refers to the back 11 techniques established by Taneshun. It is a type of technique created by Inshun, who is said "to be a match the gods and Buddha", and it is possible to deal with all enemies and techniques.

The translation is supposed to read the spear which is capable of reaching gods and Buddha,which again talks about this skills.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

it is stated that the both their blows are an "inescapable end" and "is incapable of being evaded" to gods and Buddha,if you can't evade an attack that means you are atleast on par with them in speed.

Unless you're telling me she paralysed then or some other hax forcing them to take the attack.

Read above,the end is defined as inescapable meaning Buddha can't escapE the attack itself

Inescapable ≠ Immeasurable speed.

Even without that doesn't debunks why his skill capable of killing god isn't hyperbolic.

Additionally it talks about Possibilities of future created not about skill attack moving to future or moving beyond linear time.

You stated that the statement in question is a hyperbole,so I proved that this verse statements aren't hyperboles but literal statements.

You didn't

When 9 out 10 statements are literal,but the 10th alone is "hyperbolic" based on poor evidence.i find the text to be much more reliable.

Poor evidence is on Musashi skill explanation.

No it doesn't,if we take it together it would mean"ishin is so skilled he can fell even gods or buddha"which again says nothing about his speed .

ishin skills might be on par with gods but he never attained a state similar to the above three which is what gives them their immeasurable speed.

The translation is supposed to read the spear which is capable of reaching gods and Buddha,which again talks about this skills.

who is said "to be a match the gods and Buddha"

Oh boy it states he matches gods and Buddha not his spear matches gods and Buddha.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Inescapable ≠ Immeasurable speed.

Then please explain to me why a immeasurable speed entity can't escape a ftl character.

Even without that doesn't debunks why his skill capable of killing god isn't hyperbolic.

Based on what,every statement that has been said in the series about skills is literal what makes this statement different.

Additionally it talks about Possibilities of future created not about skill attack moving to future or moving beyond linear time.

Sasaki doesn't have heavenly eyes and yet his blows are described to be just a unavoidable.so no she ain't the only one.

You didn't

Actually I did,you didn't get it.

Poor evidence is on Musashi skill explanation.

Again if an immeasurable speed entity is incapable of dodging a attack then that means the attacker has immeasurable speed.

Oh boy it states he matches gods and Buddha not his spear matches gods and Buddha.

Can you read the fact that i explicitly told you that it's a wrong translation which is supposed to read "his spear reaches the gods and buddha"

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Then please explain to me why a immeasurable speed entity can't escape a ftl character.

Based on what,every statement that has been said in the series about skills is literal what makes this statement different.

Sasaki doesn't have heavenly eyes and yet his blows are described to be just a unavoidable.so no she ain't the only one.

Actually I did,you didn't get it.

Again if an immeasurable speed entity is incapable of dodging a attack then that means the attacker has immeasurable speed.

Can you read the fact that i explicitly told you that it's a wrong translation which is supposed to read "his spear reaches the gods and buddha"

It is a type of technique created by Inshun, who is said "to be a match the gods and Buddha", and it is possible to deal with all enemies and techniques.

It didn't say his spear it is clearly mentioned him in the context as for other things we would just circle around so I will wait for staff input.

 

[Violetcyanide]

It didn't say his spear

Can you read the fact that i explicitly told you that it's a wrong translation which is supposed to read "his spear reaches the gods and buddha"

「その槍神仏に達す」とまで謳われた胤舜が編み出した技の型であり、あらゆる敵、技への対応を可能にする。

Translation:

It is a form of technique developed by Inshun, who was even said to have "the spear reaches the gods and Buddha", and is capable of dealing with all kinds of enemies and techniques.

as for other things we would just circle around so I will wait for staff input.

Yeah sure.

 

[SweetDao]

Can you read the fact that i explicitly told you that it's a wrong translation which is supposed to read "his spear reaches the gods and buddha"

"his spear" here clearly refers to him using his skills. It's not like his spear is some special forged stuff that somehow gives him all the strength he needs to defeat gods and stuff.

Even if you ignore the NA translation or the TL one and take deepl, you find that translation :

It is a form of technique developed by Inshun, whose spear is said to have "reached the gods and Buddha" and can be used against any enemy or technique.

It's clearly a metaphorical way to say he managed to reach such a level. Whether it's factual or not, that much I don't know, I'm only talking semantic-wise.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

「その槍神仏に達す」とまで謳われた胤舜が編み出した技の型であり、あらゆる敵、技への対応を可能にする。

Translation:

It is a form of technique developed by Inshun, who was even said to have "the spear reaches the gods and Buddha", and is capable of dealing with all kinds of enemies and techniques.


Yeah sure.

My bad. Yeah I checked it has different translation I see. I will ask a JP speaker for actual translation wait.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If their ability is not metaphorical, then the currently accepted justification applies.

It is stated that they surpassed time:

No, not only that. Their skills had now surpassed everything—time, space, existence, essence... Each was the other's perfect mirror image.

It is stated that gods and buddha cannot escape or evade their attacks, which scales to their speed:

That is Musashi's zero; a sword designed to bring about an inescapable end, even against gods or the Buddha.

That is Kojirou's Swallow Reversal; a sword designed to create a future that not even gods nor the Buddha could evade.

Gods and buddha are accepted to have immeasurable speed, and there are multiple statements establishing this such as not being bound by the time axis. Two examples are:

Golden White Face [concept] Konjiki Hakumen. This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of her like this in her 3rd Secret Garden. The apathetic Sun Goddess [Amaterasu Oomikami]. When Cas-ko goes into nine-tails mode this is what she will……not be. This form is Cas-ko’s origin, and is now just something that’s been part of her since long ago and continues to be a part of her. When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her.

With the accompanying feat:

???: Such sharp tongue you have there. Already got the hang of it huh? Hoho, irritating but reasonable. Considering your courage, I shall explain. I am the true nature lies within the depth of that one tail’s consciousness. This is an era far in the past, long before your era. While I was fast asleep, I saw the stupidity of my future self. That got me angry, so I decided to summon her partner here. One tail….she’s probably referring to Caster. In other words, this is Caster’s past….No, more like Caster’s big original self. But...she saw her future self while being fast asleep and got irritated. So she stretched her arm to that future spacetime and captured me - Caster’s current Master - back to the past….? Oh no I’m in danger! Caster’s original self, don’t you care anything about time paradox??? ???: Such praises, can’t say I’m not pleased. To begin with, I saw that future because you came into contact with the origin. I couldn’t believe what I saw. She was betrayed, yet didn’t learn her lesson and still serve humans――― I was furious and intended to kill that one tail right there. But before that, I must see what her “dear master” is all about. But you seems like a worthless thing. Now then―――how can you be so small?

An objection was brought up; Musashi defeated Inshun (or more accurately, Lancer of Purgatorio) even though he is known to have reached the buddha with his spearmanship. But if we look at Inshun's interlude, it is established that Lancer of Purgatorio is actually much weaker than the regular Inshun due to embracing violence, and Lancer of Purgatorio basically says that his spear is yet to reach the realm of the gods:

Lancer of Purgatorio Now, you will bear witness as I kill hundreds, thousands, all to propel my spear into the realm of the gods! [...] Lancer of Purgatorio Mwahahaha! Is that all you've got!? None can match this body and its sheer techni— Inshun It's over. Lancer of Purgatorio Wha...!? Ah... Ahhh!? Impossible! This can't be right! Your strike had all the strength of a house cat swatting at a reed! How could I not parry it...!? Inshun You have wasted so much power; power that already exceeded your limits. Of course it would leave you vulnerable. You completely failed to understand your own body, Purgatorio. Lancer of Purgatorio No... No! This cannot be true! I haven't even avenged my defeat at the hands of that Musashi woman! My miraculous resurrection was meant to be my chance to exact my reven— Inshun Hmm, I suppose you may fare a bit better against an opponent with swords since that has been your focus... ...but the rest is quite sloppy. You may have gained in one area, but you have lost much in others. Lancer of Purgatorio Wha... Inshun Whether they reach the level of the Buddha or become an oni, everyone eventually hits their limit. Speaking for myself, I find it an incredible waste. Your spear may have grown sharper, but as a Lancer, you have grown weaker. Lancer of Purgatorio How... How dare yoooooou!? You'll pay for this, Inshun! Inshun Farewell, Purgatorio. ...What a disappointment. To think I would be no more than a common highwayman if I fell from grace...

Also, the Servant version of Inshun that has been summoned is not necessarily one who has fully master his spear. Assassin from Fate/Stay Night did not master Swallow Reversal to the extent that Nameless Saber did. Even though Nameless Saber said that his mastery will be recorded to a man resembling him in the Throne of Heroes:

Sasaki Kojirou Although... The Chronicle Theoretical Phenomenon, was it? If there is someone in the Throne of Heroes, even just one man, who resembles me, I wish I could share this experience with him. Farewell, Musashi. You were indeed the most heavenly flower I have ever known...

---

I believe these are the major points covered.
My goal in explaining the abilities was to establish that the scene is not metaphorical, which makes the current justification for immeasurable valid (such as the statement of surpassing time mentioned in the beginning of the scene).

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@ShadowWhoWalks I will check your arguments and reply tomorrow it's pretty late here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do remember Nasuverse having some pretty blatant Immeasurable speeds win which there were two characters where happing back and forth between pages of history mid combat. I or someone else might need to dig up the specific thread to where I approved that for reference. But Paul Frank makes sense that the anti-feats happened during a weaker key before the Immeasurable speed feats took place. And Shadow also seems to support what Paul Frank said.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I do remember Nasuverse having some pretty blatant Immeasurable speeds win which there were two characters where happing back and forth between pages of history mid combat. I or someone else might need to dig up the specific thread to where I approved that for reference. But Paul Frank makes sense that the anti-feats happened during a weaker key before the Immeasurable speed feats took place. And Shadow also seems to support what Paul Frank said.

But this is not about anti feats but Hyperbole statements. There are things which are Contradicting.

Also I checked the BB immeasurable speed upgrade really that doesn't make sense. Also it's from 2021. And we are in 2023 and we don't grant Immeasurable speed for HDE. I want to make it a different thread. Also Regarding Characters travelling back and forth scans talks more like time travelling instead of speed Unless I am missing some scans.

Anyway this thread is about Hyperbolic statement not about really other characters speed.

 

[BreezeHM]

They need to move Beyond Linear time and If they have feats for Traveling back and forth it will just back up the statement even further. Musashi feats can be performed by infinite speed characters too you don't need immeasurable speed characters but that's if we conclude statement is literal not Hyperbole.


Just so you know I am not saying it's necessary but here she has very less context so it's better to have feats like that to back it up.

Just having more statements would be better.

That's why she has feats for attacking people that are Immeasurable speed. It's in the speed section as well, if she's infinite there's no possible way she's hitting Ivan like at all. Wiki operates by feats >>> Statements

It's more like lack of statement and feats

• No statement for Character moving above linear time by speed and skill lacks more explanation instead it gives flowery and hyperbolic vibe
• Arguments presented talks more about countering Possibilities which is not really helpful Arguments
• Also other hyperbolic statement and Character getting stomped even without Zero skill.
• Additionally the main interpretation you will be getting is Musashi mind reached the point of Nothingness where her skill can predict and counter the Possibilities which was created by infinite sword. Zero sword just drawn to that infinite sword by pure skill.

Where is the lack of statement and feats? You're going purely of the textbook definition of Immeasurable Speed when that's not the only way to get Immeasurable speed. First they're stated to Surpass Time and Space. Obviously not Immeasurable speed but there's more. Stated to be capable of attacking Buddha's and god's who also transcend time and space. Two Statements but you could argue it means something else. Then you have an actual feat of Musashi attacking an Immeasurable speed character which proves the transcending time and space is indeed referring to Musashi's zero being beyond linear time. How does her getting stomped out of zero have any relation? How do you get that interpretation from that? Even Sasaki's sword is stated to go beyond the limits of time and space. Musashi's zero is raising her to that point of existence to counter Sasaki's infinity, it's not that during their fight they grew to match each other's infinity and zero respectively.

There is a thing called omnipresence for seeing all point of time as same it's not immeasurable speed. No scans of statement in Buddha or Kiara profile talks about speed instead they are Transcendent and views the Lower dimensions as all of time as same it's not immeasurable speed.

Additionally if you checked the speed page of course you need feats for speed not seeing things.

It's not omnipresence for them. Sanzang already confirmed the Buddha exists beyond time and space

Mind Checking @LordGinSama reply. It's pretty much previously staffs ignored him.
This

Fate Hax is already treated as instantaneous, for example if you can attack the future then the present will be altered automatically as a consequence. That's like me giving Yhwach infinite attack speed via the Almighty.

Also typically speaking a single statement of infinite moves being made instantly aren't usually accepted as infinite or immeasurable speeds as this could be a result of hax, hence why Vash the Stampede is 5-B with 4-D hax as opposed to being outright 2-A.

Especially since Musashi directly utilizes Fate manipulation in combat. It's a result of her Fate hax as opposed to her raw speed imo.

In Zero, Musashi is not cutting fates, in the fight against Sasaki there was no fate to cut, Her Heavenly eye is what allows her to cut fates and there was no possibility of doing so in the fight against Ivan.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's why she has feats for attacking people that are Immeasurable speed. It's in the speed section as well, if she's infinite there's no possible way she's hitting Ivan like at all. Wiki operates by feats >>> Statements

Where is the lack of statement and feats? You're going purely of the textbook definition of Immeasurable Speed when that's not the only way to get Immeasurable speed. First they're stated to Surpass Time and Space. Obviously not Immeasurable speed but there's more. Stated to be capable of attacking Buddha's and god's who also transcend time and space. Two Statements but you could argue it means something else. Then you have an actual feat of Musashi attacking an Immeasurable speed character which proves the transcending time and space is indeed referring to Musashi's zero being beyond linear time. How does her getting stomped out of zero have any relation? How do you get that interpretation from that? Even Sasaki's sword is stated to go beyond the limits of time and space. Musashi's zero is raising her to that point of existence to counter Sasaki's infinity, it's not that during their fight they grew to match each other's infinity and zero respectively.

You don't need immeasurable speed to attack a immeasurable speed characters with other hax like fate.

Also I already said Possibilities ≠ speed
Additionally it's Contradicting with isshun feats. I will reply to shadow counters tomorrow

It's not omnipresence for them. Sanzang already confirmed the Buddha exists beyond time and space

Existing beyond space-time ≠ Immeasurable speed.
Also Sending someone from future to past can be done by time travel its not even talking about speed.

In Zero, Musashi is not cutting fates, in the fight against Sasaki there was no fate to cut, Her Heavenly eye is what allows her to cut fates and there was no possibility of doing so in the fight against Ivan.

Check the first line. It is talking about creating a new future possibilities. That infinite sword and zero sword has an ability to counter that. The created future possibilities of infinite sword can even harm gods that what the context is saying that's if its not considered as hyperbolic.

The fact is it's either fate manipulation or hyperbolic at best. You should know creating a new future is what clear cut manipulating destiny AKa fate manipulation.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Note that Musashi and Sasaki surpassing space-time and reality had already happened before they entered the infinite/nothingness realm.

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Dropping some additional evidence for immeasurable since skepticism has been raised about the mechanism.

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In Tamamo's CCC ending, she temporarily regained her tails and then "dashed" while completely ignoring the time axis, laws of cause and effect, and consistency:

???: That kind of ending, HOLD IT RIGHT THEREEE!! Revere me, revere me~! Uka no Mitama also greatly recognized and approved~! Super express SCRAMBLE straight from the imperial tomb of the Yellow Emperor, I finally arrived with the thousand light years dash!! ???: Hah, that Time Barrier or whatever doesn’t matter, just call me and I will burst right in! Nah, it’s not like I wasn’t invited or anything though...❤ ???: Nevertheless, even if the world acknowledged your sacrifice for world peace, God doesn’t acknowledge such things! If you take what belong to me, I will take it back. I will retaliate until I win. If I screwed the rules then I will change the rules itself!! This is the spirit of my beloved! Prepare yourself, the obstacle before me! Take this FLARE SKIRT------!!! …..She did it. She freaking did it…. She completely ignored the time axis, law of cause and effect, consistency, all of those. My Caster just did something disastrous. Tamamo: I’m very sorry for making you wait, it took me awhile to get ready, but I’m here for you now, my Lord!

---

Higher dimensional perspective in the Nasuverse has been explained in regards to BB. She is viewing the timeline in the same way one views a book or a flat scroll, she can jump into any time she wants, the past/present/future are equivalent to her and are handled simultaneously, and she can simply retroactively change the past.

Spoiler: BB's Higher Dimensional Perspective

Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

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Kiara created the Cage of the Fallen, which has more spatial and temporal dimensions than the normal world (multiple temporal dimensions are evidence for immeasurable speed):

H. C. A. In SE.RA.PH, time doesn't flow in only one direction. Instead, it's something that can be measured in some interesting ways. And the spacing on the calipers used to measure it is nothing like your conception of physical space. That's probably because time and space are both measured from a one-dimensional perspective there. Sometimes, you can even be in two different times while in the same space. This area we're in now is proof.

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Archetype: Earth can launch attacks to her enemies far into the future:

『Marble Phantasm』 Rank: EX Type: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm Range: 30-40 Maximum Targets: 100 people Temporarily transforming her frame into a condensation of mana, she executes an immensely powerful strike with the energy provided by the planet. Rather than interference of nature through magecraft, it is a purely natural phenomenon. In her 2nd Ascension, as a fan of direct frontal assaults, she turns herself into an energy bullet for a bunker buster attack. As True Ancestor royalty (1st Ascension) or the infant of nature (3rd Ascension), it's her 1200AD self sending an attack across space-time from the Millennium Castle. In addition, the field is morphed into a materialisation of the Castle.

 

[BreezeHM]

You don't need immeasurable speed to attack a immeasurable speed characters with other hax like fate.

Also I already said Possibilities ≠ speed
Additionally it's Contradicting with isshun feats. I will reply to shadow counters tomorrow

Existing beyond space-time ≠ Immeasurable speed.
Also Sending someone from future to past can be done by time travel its not even talking about speed.

Check the first line. It is talking about creating a new future possibilities. That infinite sword and zero sword has an ability to counter that. The created future possibilities of infinite sword can even harm gods that what the context is saying that's if its not considered as hyperbolic.

The fact is it's either fate manipulation or hyperbolic at best. You should know creating a new future is what clear cut manipulating destiny AKa fate manipulation.

we're just repeating ourselves at this point, best to just wait for staff and see what they think and save us both the time

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It is stated that they surpassed time:

No, not only that. Their skills had now surpassed everything—time, space, existence, essence... Each was the other's perfect mirror image.

You know this is figurative of saying their skills is on that level. Even DB has statement for Surpassing time that doesn't mean it's immeasurable speed.

It is stated that gods and buddha cannot escape or evade their attacks, which scales to their speed:

That is Musashi's zero; a sword designed to bring about an inescapable end, even against gods or the Buddha.

That is Kojirou's Swallow Reversal; a sword designed to create a future that not even gods nor the Buddha could evade.

Can not escape can mean many things. You don't need speed for everything.

Gods and buddha are accepted to have immeasurable speed, and there are multiple statements establishing this such as not being bound by the time axis. Two examples are:

This is nowhere immeasurable speed. Idk who accepted it. Being beyond space-time never grants immeasurable speed for current standards

Golden White Face [concept] Konjiki Hakumen. This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of her like this in her 3rd Secret Garden. The apathetic Sun Goddess [Amaterasu Oomikami]. When Cas-ko goes into nine-tails mode this is what she will……not be. This form is Cas-ko’s origin, and is now just something that’s been part of her since long ago and continues to be a part of her. When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her.

This is Acasuality type 1 & 4 at best. Don't see anything talking about speed or moment here

With the accompanying feat:

???: Such sharp tongue you have there. Already got the hang of it huh? Hoho, irritating but reasonable. Considering your courage, I shall explain. I am the true nature lies within the depth of that one tail’s consciousness. This is an era far in the past, long before your era. While I was fast asleep, I saw the stupidity of my future self. That got me angry, so I decided to summon her partner here. One tail….she’s probably referring to Caster. In other words, this is Caster’s past….No, more like Caster’s big original self. But...she saw her future self while being fast asleep and got irritated. So she stretched her arm to that future spacetime and captured me - Caster’s current Master - back to the past….? Oh no I’m in danger! Caster’s original self, don’t you care anything about time paradox??? ???: Such praises, can’t say I’m not pleased. To begin with, I saw that future because you came into contact with the origin. I couldn’t believe what I saw. She was betrayed, yet didn’t learn her lesson and still serve humans――― I was furious and intended to kill that one tail right there. But before that, I must see what her “dear master” is all about. But you seems like a worthless thing. Now then―――how can you be so small?

This is Precognition

In Tamamo's CCC ending, she temporarily regained her tails and then "dashed" while completely ignoring the time axis, laws of cause and effect, and consistency:

???: That kind of ending, HOLD IT RIGHT THEREEE!! Revere me, revere me~! Uka no Mitama also greatly recognized and approved~! Super express SCRAMBLE straight from the imperial tomb of the Yellow Emperor, I finally arrived with the thousand light years dash!! ???: Hah, that Time Barrier or whatever doesn’t matter, just call me and I will burst right in! Nah, it’s not like I wasn’t invited or anything though...❤ ???: Nevertheless, even if the world acknowledged your sacrifice for world peace, God doesn’t acknowledge such things! If you take what belong to me, I will take it back. I will retaliate until I win. If I screwed the rules then I will change the rules itself!! This is the spirit of my beloved! Prepare yourself, the obstacle before me! Take this FLARE SKIRT------!!! …..She did it. She freaking did it…. She completely ignored the time axis, law of cause and effect, consistency, all of those. My Caster just did something disastrous. Tamamo: I’m very sorry for making you wait, it took me awhile to get ready, but I’m here for you now, my Lord!

It's talking about something else than speed.

Higher dimensional perspective in the Nasuverse has been explained in regards to BB. She is viewing the timeline in the same way one views a book or a flat scroll, she can jump into any time she wants, the past/present/future are equivalent to her and are handled simultaneously, and she can simply retroactively change the past.

Spoiler: BB's Higher Dimensional Perspective

Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

Omnipresence can do this you don't need immeasurable speed.

Kiara created the Cage of the Fallen, which has more spatial and temporal dimensions than the normal world (multiple temporal dimensions are evidence for immeasurable speed):

H. C. A. In SE.RA.PH, time doesn't flow in only one direction. Instead, it's something that can be measured in some interesting ways. And the spacing on the calipers used to measure it is nothing like your conception of physical space. That's probably because time and space are both measured from a one-dimensional perspective there. Sometimes, you can even be in two different times while in the same space. This area we're in now is proof.

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Creating Dimensions ≠ Immeasurable speed.

Archetype: Earth can launch attacks to her enemies far into the future:

『Marble Phantasm』 Rank: EX Type: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm Range: 30-40 Maximum Targets: 100 people Temporarily transforming her frame into a condensation of mana, she executes an immensely powerful strike with the energy provided by the planet. Rather than interference of nature through magecraft, it is a purely natural phenomenon. In her 2nd Ascension, as a fan of direct frontal assaults, she turns herself into an energy bullet for a bunker buster attack. As True Ancestor royalty (1st Ascension) or the infant of nature (3rd Ascension), it's her 1200AD self sending an attack across space-time from the Millennium Castle. In addition, the field is morphed into a materialisation of the Castle.

So her attack is immeasurable speed Ok? How this is helping in our current Discussion this feat is irrelevant.

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Bruh immeasurable speed is moving beyond linear time via speed not that you use some tricks to move beyond linear time. For example time travel ≠ immeasurable speed. Same goes for manipulating time ≠ immeasurable speed. Fate Manipulation ≠ immeasurable speed.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Back on to our current Discussion

An objection was brought up; Musashi defeated Inshun (or more accurately, Lancer of Purgatorio) even though he is known to have reached the buddha with his spearmanship. But if we look at Inshun's interlude, it is established that Lancer of Purgatorio is actually much weaker than the regular Inshun due to embracing violence, and Lancer of Purgatorio basically says that his spear is yet to reach the realm of the gods:

Lancer of Purgatorio Now, you will bear witness as I kill hundreds, thousands, all to propel my spear into the realm of the gods! [...] Lancer of Purgatorio Mwahahaha! Is that all you've got!? None can match this body and its sheer techni— Inshun It's over. Lancer of Purgatorio Wha...!? Ah... Ahhh!? Impossible! This can't be right! Your strike had all the strength of a house cat swatting at a reed! How could I not parry it...!? Inshun You have wasted so much power; power that already exceeded your limits. Of course it would leave you vulnerable. You completely failed to understand your own body, Purgatorio. Lancer of Purgatorio No... No! This cannot be true! I haven't even avenged my defeat at the hands of that Musashi woman! My miraculous resurrection was meant to be my chance to exact my reven— Inshun Hmm, I suppose you may fare a bit better against an opponent with swords since that has been your focus... ...but the rest is quite sloppy. You may have gained in one area, but you have lost much in others. Lancer of Purgatorio Wha... Inshun Whether they reach the level of the Buddha or become an oni, everyone eventually hits their limit. Speaking for myself, I find it an incredible waste. Your spear may have grown sharper, but as a Lancer, you have grown weaker. Lancer of Purgatorio How... How dare yoooooou!? You'll pay for this, Inshun! Inshun Farewell, Purgatorio. ...What a disappointment. To think I would be no more than a common highwayman if I fell from grace...

Also, the Servant version of Inshun that has been summoned is not necessarily one who has fully master his spear.

Spoiler

Lancer of Purgatorio
No... No! This cannot be true!

Lancer of Purgatorio
I haven't even avenged my defeat at the hands of that Musashi woman!

Lancer of Purgatorio
My miraculous resurrection was meant to be my chance to exact my reven–

Inshun
Hmm, I suppose you may fare a bit better against an opponent with swords since that has been your focus...

Inshun
...but the rest is quite sloppy. You may have gained in one area, but you have lost much in others.

Lancer of Purgatorio
Wha...

Inshun
Whether they reach the level of the Buddha or become an oni, everyone eventually hits their limit.

Inshun
Speaking for myself, I find it an incredible waste.

The Interlude continues reaffirming Lancer of Purgatorio, did indeed reached the level of the Buddha, reinforcing what said by Yagyu in the previous scans, and what Inshun is talking about is more of a mental weakness dictate by his "abandonment of the straight path", since Inshun himself later adds:

"Ishun
Your spear may have grown sharper (= stronger),
but as a Lancer, you have grown weaker (= abandoning the straight path of the spearmanship to slaughter thousands of innocent people)
...What a disappointment. To think I would be no more than a common highwayman if I fell from grace..."

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Literally the prime example of immesurable speed is going backwards or forward in the time axis.

Original Tamamo: Literally strech her arm to the future, grab someone and then drag them back to the past.
OP: Precognition.

Normal Tamamo: Move while ignoring the time axis as well as cause and effect.
OP: It isn't speed.

Arcueid: Literally attack from 12000AD.
OP: And?

BB: Affect past, present and future simultaneously without care.
OP: Omnipresence.

Kiara: Create and move through multiple temporal axis.
OP: Not Immesurable speed.

God and beings comparable to them: Several statements of surpassing the time axis which further support all their previous feats.
OP: That don't mean anything, at most acausality.

Musashi & Kojiro: Stated to be beyond time, perform infinite attacks, stated and show to damage gods with immesurable ratings.
OP: DB is also stated to surpass time so that don't mean anything (despite the evident lack of similar feats), that's just infinite speed (which would be true without the statements and showings damaging gods).

And about Ishun, 1) Most of the time servants are a nerfed version of their original selves and can't perform their same feats as easily (like, using Xuanzang as example since she is another buddhist, to use power at the level of buddha she have to sacrifice her spirit origin, and basically any other servant have limitations to use a power of god level and most of the time need to pay a certain price, with the only exceptions as far I recall being divine weapons) 2) The main move of his spearmanship is a counterattack that adapt to the opponent attack 3) As stated by Inshun himself Purgatorio was only a bit better when facing swordmen but was inferior to his normal self in the rest, and when he said that his spear was sharper he meant his raw power as the Curse of Annihilation massively buff people physicals in exchange of their minds, and that stronger but less skilled Purgatorio was killed by the counterattack of Inshun.

And about Ritsuka, to argue that the person who survive direct hits of cannonballs, who have equipment to buff his capabilities and grant special abilities, who can resist divine powers (like Aphrodite charm and Ibuki pressure), who every time he die get revived by divine beings who affect the past, who have defeated dozens of gods, who have saved the world tens of times and have currently destroyed seven world, is a completely normal human is the most stupid and incoherent argument there could exist to counter a high tier having high abilities. On top of what Paul already said that he was just there to decide a winner and stop the infinite clash.


I normally don't care much about high tier threads (which is why I don't post much there), on top of the fact that the big wave of tier 1 threads this year have left me tired (in good part of bad arguments, the ad-hominem and ad-infinitum), but even then this is too much. I don't plan to really comment much after this since Paul and Shadow already explained why the OP conclusion is wrong, but just wanted to point how horrible the oppose arguments are, now that I did I'm done here.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Immeasurable seems to be fine still.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Literally the prime example of immesurable speed is going backwards or forward in the time axis.

Original Tamamo: Literally strech her arm to the future, grab someone and then drag them back to the past.
OP: Precognition.

I missed that one line my bad still zero relationship to the OP.

Normal Tamamo: Move while ignoring the time axis as well as cause and effect.
OP: It isn't speed.

Arcueid: Literally attack from 12000AD.
OP: And?

BB: Affect past, present and future simultaneously without care.
OP: Omnipresence.

Kiara: Create and move through multiple temporal axis.
OP: Not Immesurable speed.

God and beings comparable to them: Several statements of surpassing the time axis which further support all their previous feats.
OP: That don't mean anything, at most acausality.

I am gonna be honest with this topic has no relationship to the OP.

Musashi & Kojiro: Stated to be beyond time, perform infinite attacks, stated and show to damage gods with immesurable ratings.
OP: DB is also stated to surpass time so that don't mean anything (despite the evident lack of similar feats), that's just infinite speed (which would be true without the statements and showings damaging gods).

And about Ishun, 1) Most of the time servants are a nerfed version of their original selves and can't perform their same feats as easily (like, using Xuanzang as example since she is another buddhist, to use power at the level of buddha she have to sacrifice her spirit origin, and basically any other servant have limitations to use a power of god level and most of the time need to pay a certain price, with the only exceptions as far I recall being divine weapons) 2) The main move of his spearmanship is a counterattack that adapt to the opponent attack 3) As stated by Inshun himself Purgatorio was only a bit better when facing swordmen but was inferior to his normal self in the rest, and when he said that his spear was sharper he meant his raw power as the Curse of Annihilation massively buff people physicals in exchange of their minds, and that stronger but less skilled Purgatorio was killed by the counterattack of Inshun.

Back on to our current Discussion

Spoiler

Lancer of Purgatorio
No... No! This cannot be true!

Lancer of Purgatorio
I haven't even avenged my defeat at the hands of that Musashi woman!

Lancer of Purgatorio
My miraculous resurrection was meant to be my chance to exact my reven–

Inshun
Hmm, I suppose you may fare a bit better against an opponent with swords since that has been your focus...

Inshun
...but the rest is quite sloppy. You may have gained in one area, but you have lost much in others.

Lancer of Purgatorio
Wha...

Inshun
Whether they reach the level of the Buddha or become an oni, everyone eventually hits their limit.

Inshun
Speaking for myself, I find it an incredible waste.

The Interlude continues reaffirming Lancer of Purgatorio, did indeed reached the level of the Buddha, reinforcing what said by Yagyu in the previous scans, and what Inshun is talking about is more of a mental weakness dictate by his "abandonment of the straight path", since Inshun himself later adds:

"Ishun
Your spear may have grown sharper (= stronger),
but as a Lancer, you have grown weaker (= abandoning the straight path of the spearmanship to slaughter thousands of innocent people)
...What a disappointment. To think I would be no more than a common highwayman if I fell from grace..."

And about Ritsuka, to argue that the person who survive direct hits of cannonballs, who have equipment to buff his capabilities and grant special abilities, who can resist divine powers (like Aphrodite charm and Ibuki pressure), who every time he die get revived by divine beings who affect the past, who have defeated dozens of gods, who have saved the world tens of times and have currently destroyed seven world, is a completely normal human is the most stupid and incoherent argument there could exist to counter a high tier having high abilities. On top of what Paul already said that he was just there to decide a winner and stop the infinite clash.

Reviving by divine being means nothing that has nothing to do with my OP.

Feels like you people just trying to derail the thread with unnecessary arguments. Other characters having or not having immeasurable speed has nothing to do with my thread it's regarding Musashi not other characters.

 

[Huesito88]

"Musashi & Kojiro: Stated to be beyond time, perform infinite attacks, stated and show to damage gods with immesurable ratings.
OP: DB is also stated to surpass time so that don't mean anything (despite the evident lack of similar feats), that's just infinite speed (which would be true without the statements and showings damaging gods)."

So you don't think the feat by itself is immeasurable speed without scaling to Gods?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

"Musashi & Kojiro: Stated to be beyond time, perform infinite attacks, stated and show to damage gods with immesurable ratings.
OP: DB is also stated to surpass time so that don't mean anything (despite the evident lack of similar feats), that's just infinite speed (which would be true without the statements and showings damaging gods)."

So you don't think the feat by itself is immeasurable speed without scaling to Gods?

Before was rated as infinite speed so I think that in a completely absolute vacuum where nothing else of the verse is remotely considered, then yes it would be just infinite speed (which is already far more than the relativistic-ftl argument the op was using and than even DB which he brought as counterargument for some reason), problem is that that isn't how the verse or wiki works which was why it was upgraded to immesurable, plus all the statements of going beyond time limits that further support the rating

 

[rogueprestonian]

All I can see here is OP being ignorant and denying the proof of Musashi/Kojiro being immeasurable speed. I believe all the points have been made here now it is up to the staff to decide if it is valid or not.

 

[Deagonx]

All I can see here is OP being ignorant and denying the proof of Musashi/Kojiro being immeasurable speed.

Do not accuse people of being ignorant for disagreeing with you. This adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

 

[Donatien]

Bump. Also, what are the votes so far?