nasuverse earth 9/10-d upgrade

[Paul_Frank]

Gods/divine spirits are almost identical in nasuverse lor

But literally everything showing us repeatedly that they aren't, such as gods being significantly stronger, the entire thing with Sefar, etc, divine spirits are much weaker

Earth is the weakest planet in lore. also the crimson moon literally had to make a deal to live inside of earth. Why would he have to do that if he was stronger?
Also "planet" saint graphs are superior to "satellite" saint graphs, but I'm not sure how valid that is here

That's missing an absurd amount of context. He did that in response to Gaia's call to the other planets for help, and he made that condition that he's allowed to live on earth, so he could take it over from the inside, he just wanted to take another planet as his kingdom, it helped spread his influence and everything. Like sure, if he's stronger he can just destroy Earth, and then what? Plus, having peaceful relationships with Earth also assisted in another thing for him, having the True Ancestor race and such, helped ensure that when he died (something he foresaw) he'd be able to come back just fine using one of them

Amaterasu/tamamo > moon cell.
True form of Amaterasu should be dimensionally superior to tamamo, as shown in the scan

The true form of Amaterasu is higher d, yes

You know where we see that? That's right, the Amaterasu in Extra, who we are explicitly told is the real true god form of her, and the only reason she looks like a woman is because that's how we perceive her, and her true form is literally just the sun and light in that room. Its not some dimensionally inferior Amaterasu in Extra that's superior to the mooncell, with a true form dimensionally superior to her

 

[Mageman460]

Gods/divine spirits are almost identical in nasuverse lor

No. They are not. Hence why the distinction is made for Deified Arjuna in LB 4.

Have you not finished extra? Thats literally the deity where bb derives her cursed cutting crater from

Cool, not relevant.

all true ancestors have the status of "planet", which is superior to the "god" status of divine spirits

Thats not what im saying at all, learn how to read.

Reread the OP. Yup that's what you said. Your entire argument is that because True Ancestors, specifically Arcueid, are above Divine Spirits, specifically Ameterasu, the Earth should be dimensionally superior by up to TWO levels. As the Moon Cell is currently 8 D.

Does “superior” there have enough criteria with our Qualitatively Superior standard?

I mean, you can be stronger or superior to a 9D being, but that doesn't mean you directly become a 10D being without further elaboration. One can argue that it is superior/stronger in terms of power level, abilities and etc. Not in particular on dimension difference.

It does not no.

Amaterasu/tamamo > moon cell.
True form of Amaterasu should be dimensionally superior to tamamo, as shown in the scan

The true form of Ameterasu is who we see in CCC.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

But literally everything showing us repeatedly that they aren't, such as gods being significantly stronger, the entire thing with Sefar, etc, divine spirits are much weaker

Ill steal this definition from the tm wiki

Divine Spirit (神霊, Shinrei?) are Gods (神, Kami?) that deteriorated as the Age of Gods came to a close.

true ancestors are still superior to gods,though

That's missing an absurd amount of context. He did that in response to Gaia's call to the other planets for help, and he made that condition that he's allowed to live on earth, so he could take it over from the inside, he just wanted to take another planet as his kingdom, it helped spread his influence and everything. Like sure, if he's stronger he can just destroy Earth, and then what? Plus, having peaceful relationships with Earth also assisted in another thing for him, having the True Ancestor race and such, helped ensure that when he died (something he foresaw) he'd be able to come back just fine using one of them

if he was stronger, he wouldnt have to obey the earths laws to take it over.

Its not some dimensionally inferior Amaterasu in Extra that's superior to the mooncell, with a true form dimensionally superior to her

How would that be,as tamamo possesses the same saint graph power level of 387,420,489?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Reread the OP. Yup that's what you said. Your entire argument is that because True Ancestors, specifically Arcueid, are above Divine Spirits, specifically Ameterasu, the Earth should be dimensionally superior by up to TWO levels. As the Moon Cell is currently 8 D.

No, i said the earth scales above the true forms of divine spirits/gods.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Cool, not relevant.

Still is relevant, as BB derives a largefraction of her power from that divine spirit

 

[Mageman460]

Oh yeah btw, Ameterasu is not "within the world." Ameterasu very specifically belongs to the universe and not Earth. Hence why Sefar did not get a bonus against her.

 

[Linkbtw93]

Disagree with the OP

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Oh yeah btw, Ameterasu is not "within the world." Ameterasu very specifically belongs to the universe and not Earth. Hence why Sefar did not get a bonus against her.

Tamamo is within the world however, and her 9 tailed form possesses the same saint graph power-level, and that doesnt really debunk the other 8-d divine spirits/gods

 

[Paul_Frank]

Ill steal this definition from the tm wiki

Yes, in other words they aren't the same because of deterioration, very good

true ancestors are still superior to gods,though

And? A true ancestor can be stronger than a god and this upgrade remains wrong still. Like, is Arjuna Alter a dimension higher than Karna? Is Sefar a dimension higher than the Greek Pantheon, and suddenly they become a dimension higher when they fuse? To further show why this logic doesn't work, is Ryougi (female personality) a dimension higher than the dudes she beats up in Paradox Spiral? You can be stronger without a dimensional gap

if he was stronger, he wouldnt have to obey the earths laws to take it over.

You completely missed the entire thing where that's not what he wanted, he wanted to you know, not just destroy everything, he has plans, he's a mastermind behind stuff. He deliberately made the True Ancestors so the DAAs come about and stuff, the comments about him pertaining to Notes show he has a big role behind the scenes there too, etc. Sure, he could wipe the planet and use the barren ball of rocks as a kingdom, but that's clearly not his goal. This is a terrible argument

How would that be,as tamamo possesses the same saint graph power level of 387,420,489?

Because getting tails raises her saint graph and existence level, we're told this pretty clearly. Her mats even say her existence is on the scale of the sun so that's why that works.

Cas-ko’s true form is an anti-heroic spirit, God-class… she is more or less a god.
Having lost most of her power, she is now on the same level as other human heroic spirits, however when the number of her tails increases and her spirit rank goes up to the highest level, it’s impossible for humans to comprehend her full power.
This is only natural, as the foundation of her being came from an offering to the sun. Thus, the scale of her existence is equivalent to that of the sun.
By the way, for each tail that returns, Cas-ko’s power increases by 9x. This means that in her max power state with all nine tails her power has increased by 99.

However the two aren't equal even if Tamamo hits 9 tails, we know this pretty clearly via in game stuff, and because mats also specifically say that 9 tail Tamamo can't become Amaterasu anyway, the number thing wasn't really accurate from the start, but that's not important. We know it can't be some like, avatar of Amaterasu or something because its explicitly just the actual being pulling us backwards through time to the age of gods (where true ether exists) during this time there weren't weakened divine spirits, there weren't lower avatars etc, its just actual gods walking around

―――A sudden backward motion.

Shortly after, I lay down and closed my eyes. I was in the middle of a short dream, like a thin veil of fog, bumped into a wall of water like a sunshower.

???: Oho, I see….While attempting to see the future, my past is revealed huh. Hmph, if that is what being drawn here, then so be it.

―――Blinding light crushing the eyes.

It’s too dazzling I can’t open my eyes. The atmosphere is damp, sunlight flickers through multiple veil of morning mist. The whole place is vast, I found myself in the midst of a sacred space.

???: ….Wake up. Now, here. Wake up, little insect. Being in front of me, shouldn’t you beg for your life?

―――My eyes are still narrow but I vaguely hear a familiar voice. Either that the light is getting dim or I already got used to it, I was tempted by that voice so I opened my eyes. Over there is―――

???: Hoh, So you’ve finally opened your eyes? Now, let me see that face. The life that will vanish depends on my mood, at the very best I’m in good mood.

My eyes are probably lying to me, the scene is unreal. I want to pinch my cheek but I can’t even blink, much less lifting a finger.

This is without a doubt an enormous building. A temple…, no, from the walls design it’s probably a palace. The atmosphere is filled with true ether that is completely alien to a magus of the virtual spiritron world. Anyone with just a bit of intelligence should already get it. This is an impenetrable sanctuary, a cannibalistic demonic temple of no return.

They then say, as I said, that its her true self and her looking like a woman is just our perception because we can dream

Golden White Face [Circumstances]
Konjiki Hakumen.
This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of her like this in her 3rd Secret Garden. The apathetic Sun Goddess [Amaterasu Oomikami].
When Cas-ko goes into nine-tails mode this is what she will……not be. This form is Cas-ko’s origin, and is now just something that’s been part of her since long ago and continues to be a part of her. When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her.
Normally someone entering the mausoleum would be burnt to a crisp, but as expected of our Zabio/Zabiko [nicknames for the male/female protagonist] he or she flaunts their recklessness in the face of danger (stupid menu choices), and somehow pull through.
Originally we wanted to feature her without clothing (in her lovely nine-tailed divine spirit form wearing only an apron [naked-apron]), however, unable to break through the ethical wall that is our consciences, she appears properly clad in her ceremonial attire.
By the way, when someone who has no dream enters the mausoleum, the only thing that can be seen is a giant sun.

However there's a you know, glaring issue still, where none of this implies any dimensional difference anywhere. The only part that implies dimensional differences is the part where it says that divine spirits are in a higher dimension, which doesn't at all necessitate a dimensional difference between CCC and stuff on earth. Because the you know, 6/8d parts of the world would qualify as that higher dimension they flee to

 

[AizenSosuke]

following + neutral rn

 

[BoastJr]

I disagree , paul's point is sound.

there isnt anything to suggest dimensional superiority + divine spirits existing in a higher dimension is already accepted.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

And? A true ancestor can be stronger than a god and this upgrade remains wrong still. Like, is Arjuna Alter a dimension higher than Karna? Is Sefar a dimension higher than the Greek Pantheon, and suddenly they become a dimension higher when they fuse? To further show why this logic doesn't work, is Ryougi (female personality) a dimension higher than the dudes she beats up in Paradox Spiral? You can be stronger without a dimensional gap



However the two aren't equal even if Tamamo hits 9 tails, we know this pretty clearly via in game stuff, and because mats also specifically say that 9 tail Tamamo can't become Amaterasu anyway, the number thing wasn't really accurate from the start, but that's not important. We know it can't be some like, avatar of Amaterasu or something because its explicitly just the actual being pulling us backwards through time to the age of gods (where true ether exists) during this time there weren't weakened divine spirits, there weren't lower avatars etc, its just actual gods walking around


They then say, as I said, that its her true self and her looking like a woman is just our perception because we can dream

Alright, though tamamo is still 8-d, i just decided to use a bad example, my point still stands that there are many 8-d divine spirit/god servants, who are nerfed due to their servant container, and their true forms reside on the reverse side.

However there's a you know, glaring issue still, where none of this implies any dimensional difference anywhere. The only part that implies dimensional differences is the part where it says that divine spirits are in a higher dimension, which doesn't at all necessitate a dimensional difference between CCC and stuff on earth. Because the you know, 6/8d parts of the world would qualify as that higher dimension they flee to

That'd make no sense, as if that was the case, why have other servants with similar levels of power, not acessed that area?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, you can be stronger or superior to a 9D being, but that doesn't mean you directly become a 10D being without further elaboration

To add, you can be multiple degrees of infinity above a 9D being without getting into 10D in the same way a 2A is above a Low 2-C without being 5D.

 

[Georredannea15]

To add, you can be multiple degrees of infinity above a 9D being without getting into 10D in the same way a 2A is above a Low 2-C without being 5D.

But Low 2-C and 2-A still have the same infinitely degree. You don't need a 2-A structure to be 5-D. Any 4-D structure will enough.

Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A, if you qualitatively superior infinity of one of them, you're 5-D.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But Low 2-C and 2-A still have the same infinitely degree.

They have a different type of infinite degree separation, which is why I brought it up. Being superior to someone, even infinitely so isn't a higher D justification because of that.

Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A, if you qualitatively superior infinity of one of them, you're 5-D.

Sure, but we weren't discussing that. I was agreeing and expanding on Nexp's claim. If can be infinitely stronger than another character without being higher dimensional.

 

[Georredannea15]

They have a different type of infinite degree separation, which is why I brought it up. Being superior to someone, even infinitely so isn't a higher D justification because of that.

What I mean here is that since 2-A and Low 2-C will be 4-D structures, both structures will have the same degree of infinity.

In other words, the amount of material that will enter a container does not change the size of that container. Even if you place 1 universe or infinite universes in that container, the container will still have the same size. And that's what I mean if there were a larger container that was qualitatively superior infinity of this container, that container would be 5-D.

But I understand what you mean too.

Sure, but we weren't discussing that. I was agreeing and expanding on Nexp's claim. If can be infinitely stronger than another character without being higher dimensional.

Yes, that's not the problem. There may be people who just misunderstood what you wrote above. I wanted to write something like this because there will be those who think that you can be 5-D with only 2-A. I already understand what you mean.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

They have a different type of infinite degree separation, which is why I brought it up. Being superior to someone, even infinitely so isn't a higher D justification because of that.

the tiering system page kind of contradicts that

Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Ill concede on the 10d, as that was put up there mainly because I wasn't sure about the status of the 9d mooncell upgrade.
Though 9d earth is still very valid

 

[Tarang123]

the tiering system page kind of contradicts that

Being infinitely stronger isn’t even enough for High 3A, much less an uncountably infinite jump in power.

 

[Mageman460]

Ill concede on the 10d, as that was put up there mainly because I wasn't sure about the status of the 9d mooncell upgrade.
Though 9d earth is still very valid

9 D Earth is not valid at all. You have not proven anything relating to dimensional superiority. As many people have pointed out.

 

[KingNanaya]

yeah, I don't agree with this. maybe 7D earth someday

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

9 D Earth is not valid at all. You have not proven anything relating to dimensional superiority. As many people have pointed out.

Then you just have reading comprehension issues.

There are many divine spirits ( or servants that are comprised of them) that are 8d, such as Tamamo,and Buddha.

However, the true forms of these divine spirits are located in a higher dimension ( which is supported by the fact that divine spirits are nerfed when stuck in a servant container)
Also true ancestors automatically scale above all divine spirits due to "Planet" class spirits being superior

Really not that hard to understand. I fail to get why no one in this thread has gotten this simple information yet

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Denying the fact that the earth is superior to the moon cell, despite divine spirits/gods being inferior to Planets and true ancestors, is just ignoring evidence at this point, and makes me want to bang my head on a wall

 

[Mageman460]

As numerous people have said. Being superior does not mean they are a dimension above. On top of that, said Divine Spirits are not higher dimensional to 8 D. They are higher dimensional to humanity. Literally no one is arguing against the true form of Divine Spirits being higher dimensional.

Also stop insulting people, this is the second time yoy have insulted my reading comprehension.

 

[Qawsedf234]

the tiering system page kind of contradicts that

It doesn't, because the Tier 2 mentions separate space times being higher than a baseline infinite 4D structure. There's a separate degree of infinity between dimensional superiority and standard infinitely higher.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

As numerous people have said. Being superior does not mean they are a dimension above. On top of that, said Divine Spirits are not higher dimensional to 8 D. They are higher dimensional to humanity. Literally no one is arguing against the true form of Divine Spirits being higher dimensional.

Also stop insulting people, this is the second time yoy have insulted my reading comprehension.

humanity in what sense? alaya or normal humans? Because both have replicated similar feats
Also it makes no sense for that scan to reference nerfed divine spirits in their servant containers

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It doesn't, because the Tier 2 mentions separate space times being higher than a baseline infinite 4D structure. There's a separate degree of infinity between dimensional superiority and standard infinitely higher.

well, that doesnt really matter here, as it was mostly used as supporting evidence for a scan that concretely mentions dimensional superiority.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

humanity in what sense? alaya or normal humans? Because both have replicated similar feats
Also it makes no sense for that scan to reference nerfed divine spirits in their servant containers

Also kinda supports my point when we have had powerful humans like artoria ( who is stated to be much stronger when alive than all of her servant versions (including extra))

 

[1Nairove]

I wouldn't be talking if I were you tbh. Masadaverse can't even get past low 1C on this wiki

The world is turning upside down a nasu fan is bullying a shinza fan lol

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The world is turning upside down a nasu fan is bullying a shinza fan lol

nasufans nuke themselves

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Summarized thread point

8d divine spirits exist

Higher dimensional forms exist inside the reverse side of the world, even if this was referring to just humanity, humans in nasu have replicated 8d feats, also alaya exists lmao

True ancestors are superior to divine spirits and gods

since earth contains these 9d beings, the earth should be upgraded.

 

[Mageman460]

Summarized thread point

8d divine spirits exist

Higher dimensional forms exist inside the reverse side of the world, even if this was referring to just humanity, humans in nasu have replicated 8d feats, also alaya exists lmao

True ancestors are superior to divine spirits and gods

since earth contains these 9d beings, the earth should be upgraded.

See the problem with this.
9 D Earth because higher dimensional Divine Spirits
Characters can destroy the Earth as Divine Spirits, or scale to characters that can.
Divine Spirits true forms are now 10D.
Earth is now 10D by the "logic" you are using.
Repeat.

Also humanity can use higher dimensional power, but they themselves are not higher dimensional. Otherwise we get the same loop as pointed out above.

EDIT:

Also kinda supports my point when we have had powerful humans like artoria ( who is stated to be much stronger when alive than all of her servant versions (including extra))

This is also just wrong. Saber herself says as much. She says that when she contracts with Rin, she is as strong as her living self.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

See the problem with this.
9 D Earth because higher dimensional Divine Spirits
Characters can destroy the Earth as Divine Spirits, or scale to characters that can.
Divine Spirits true forms are now 10D.
Earth is now 10D by the "logic" you are using.
Repeat.

im pretty sure the only spirits that can do that are spirits that have origins outside of earth, such as ashtart ( and she's from a different universe)
Even then, lore puts planets above divine spirits and gods automatically, argue with nasu.

EDIT:


This is also just wrong. Saber herself says as much. She says that when she contracts with Rin, she is as strong as her living self.

How is this wrong? Living Artoria can use all of the weapons in her arsenal, and can make use of her dragon's core for unlimited mana

 

[Mageman460]

im pretty sure the only spirits that can do that are spirits that have origins outside of earth, such as ashtart ( and she's from a different universe)
Even then, lore puts planets above divine spirits and gods automatically, argue with nasu.

Pick a Tier 1 character. They now scale to your proposed 9-D. Gilgamesh for example with Ea. Or Enkidu who can match Gil with Ea. Oh wait, they can destroy the 9D world and Ishtar and many other Divine Spirits are equal to them. They have true forms that are higher dimensional. Now it's 10D. What you are proposing is basically either 1-B or High 1-B lol. A really faulty 1-B/High 1-B, that does not WORK.

Also, yeah I was specifically told when I upgraded servants that Rin Artoria was equal to her living self. Source is F/SN UBW route.

Your best argument is to argue that destroying the world is 8D because Gaia/Alaya should be above Divine Spirits, and thus all Low 1-C feats are now Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. Because even the 8D rating isn't completely solid, hence the possibly.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Pick a Tier 1 character. They now scale to your proposed 9-D. Gilgamesh for example with Ea. Or Enkidu who can match Gil with Ea. Oh wait, they can destroy the 9D world and Ishtar and many other Divine Spirits are equal to them. They have true forms that are higher dimensional. Now it's 10D. What you are proposing is basically either 1-B or High 1-B lol. A really faulty 1-B/High 1-B, that does not WORK.

Also, yeah I was specifically told when I upgraded servants that Rin Artoria was equal to her living self. Source is F/SN UBW route.

Your best argument is to argue that destroying the world is 8D because Gaia/Alaya should be above Divine Spirits, and thus all Low 1-C feats are now Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. Because even the 8D rating isn't completely solid, hence the possibly.

Gilgamesh cant destroy the world, only its texture.
Also da vinci states its impossible for any servant born from earth to be able to destroy it completely

Also, yeah I was specifically told when I upgraded servants that Rin Artoria was equal to her living self. Source is F/SN UBW route.

outdated info atp, since a lot of the info for alive artoria comes from f/go

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Pick a Tier 1 character. They now scale to your proposed 9-D. Gilgamesh for example with Ea. Or Enkidu who can match Gil with Ea. Oh wait, they can destroy the 9D world and Ishtar and many other Divine Spirits are equal to them. They have true forms that are higher dimensional. Now it's 10D. What you are proposing is basically either 1-B or High 1-B lol. A really faulty 1-B/High 1-B, that does not WORK.

also theres an actual high 1-b mooncell meta, but even i think its kinda faulty, so i havent made a crt for it

 

[Chasekilleen]

IMHO, there are too many holes in the original poster's arguments, thus I disagree. I think Mageman460 did bring a few good points and not sure why the heck Shinza was brought into this considering I have already long debunked Akuto Yuri's main argument to which he conceded at that point.

 

[Seracle]

Is Earth even 6D? I know the scan about Avalon brought the user to the Avalon, which is in the Inner Sea of the Planet, and shut off all interference up to 6 dimensions.
But in TsukiR, Roa said that the Inner Sea of the Planet is a Conceptual Dimension. This was further proved by Da Vinci in LB7 when she said the Inner Sea of the Planet is actually Earth's own Reality Marble.
Based on that, I think Nasu has retcon the 6D thing and basically said: Avalon is actually a form of Subjective Reality which brings people to an imaginary world to prevent interference from Earth.

 

[1Nairove]

If you had brought up the issue of the Mooncell core being high dimensional from the barrier (the crt I opened earlier), it would have made more sense, and that revision would definitely have been a more logical choice (the revision was still open to discussion, I was told that it should be postponed, but seeing that the nasu fans are trying to add something to the universe these days, I think this might work)