for the sake of protecting the person who wrote this so he won’t get attacked by anyone here. I won’t give out his name nor the website I got this from
If you don’t want to read this or be upset about it. Don’t go further.
alright then you asked for it. Here’s the rant thing
When you are debating against a fate character, you may have been several times have a scan slapped on you with Rin in Fate Extra saying that Higher dimensional beings in nasuverse sees the multiverse and it's history as a scroll/fiction and thus higher dimension in nasuverse have a reality fiction difference with lower ones. And then people start comparing Nasuverse characters to the likes of Featherine, Hajun, etc. Very Nice. But then when you get into fate yourself, you literally don't find any feat going above Galaxy/universe level. So how does this inconsistencies happen? Let us check what Rin exactly says here.
"Higher dimensions in Nasuverse sees Lower dimensions as fiction."
Nothing really implies reality fiction interaction.
First of all, there is nothing impressive about "higher dimensions" . Dimensions are themselves nothing but merely axis of movement. Where does this misunderstanding comes from? From misunderstanding the statement. Here.
Let's say you are in a three floor building, and you are in second floor. From inside, you can't see the first and third floor, but
from outside, the building appears flat, and you can see the three floors at once. Now compare this to what Rin says.
Let us see what Rin exactly said, yes? In the original scan Rin said that the past, present and future
cannot be perceived at once. Then, it is mentioned that
from a higher dimension like universe of record the frame of time LOOKS like a flat scroll, from where past, present and future can be observed at once. Here comes my alternate interpretation of Rin's statement.
LOOKS like, not IS. So rather then being a higher plane of existence which sees lower dimensions as fiction, higher dimension in nasuverse is more like "
A placefrom where you can see past, present and future of the world at once", and that is because the laws of higher dimensions like recorded space are
different .
This is further supported when
creatures from observed universe can enter recorded universe as stated by Rin, and she
even says you can jump inside the "book" and come outside of it, completely throwing away any idea of reality fiction difference.
Pay attention. Rin here puts stress on the point that how it is easy to see past, present and future at once from the record universe, rather then outright saying "This reality sees the lower dimension as fiction".
Let us see what official say
Recorded universe The world or viewpoint where the concept of time is "recorded time". "Recorded" means that the past, present, and future are perceived at the same time. For example, for a higher-dimensional being with a perception of several dimensions, the three-dimensional world is like the world written in a scroll, so you can always record your past, present, and future in the scroll. Can be perceived at the same time. The center of Mooncell is the existence of a recorded universe because the past, present, and future exist at the same time, and it is a parallel world simulator that calculates all possibilities.
To sum it up, Universe of Observation- change shit as you want in exchange for having no ******* clue what the future is. Universe of Record essentially allows you to see past, present and future- but you lose the ability to freely influence reality and become more of an 'external observer', so to speak.
Or in a nutshell, a higher dimensional being can PERCIEVE the past, present and future. At once.
Thus the difference between dimensions is perspective, the fact that a higher Dimension can see both past, present and future of lower dimensions. The book and scroll stuff was used to make this explanation easier.
To blast it further?
However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#Q:_When_are_higher_dimensions_valid.2C_then.3F
At least, this is how i interpret it. Now this may seem like purposefully high downplay. Normally, this much evidence should be logically enough to get a character on a higher tier. But there are too many things that well, are rather against higher dimensions being higher infinities after this.
First of all, Amarterasu, who is implied to be the strongest character in fate extra and stated by tamamo to be capable of destroying the "
multiverse" and above time axis has a FINITE power level on par with the Sun, about over 300,000,000.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Tamamo-no-Mae#Nine_Tails
Goetia, who rivals Amarterasu, also can incinerate the surface of earth with his power, and his strongest attack in raw power can penetrate the earth with it's raw power. You may say that it burned down human history, and all of past present future, but remember, goetia himself says that it is about a hundred million times stronger then excalibur which is perhaps above planetary at best. Mark you, goetia says that he is a higher dimensional being, and it took him 3000 years to gather that energy.
Pre lostbelt Da vinchi claims that no noble phantasm has enough raw power to destroy a planet. Not because of counter force, but because they lack enough raw power to do so.
Finally , the alien god can be destroyed by planetary level power according to chaldea.
Avalon, a six dimensional realm, is contained inside Earth.
And several characters who are stated to be higher dimensional can be physically interacted with, like Goetia, Divine Spirits, etc. There are way more anti feats, with space ishtar reaching galaxy level as the biggest feat in raw power in Nasuverse.
So with all these anti feats, and the alternate interpretation, i find it a bit hard to think that nasuverse is that high. .
Are the fate characters multiverse level?
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/type-moon-general.4892/page-2901#post-10156340
Conclusion
In a nutshell, the difference between higher and lower dimensions in nasuverse is extremely vague and hard to recognize as reality fiction difference.
Also, this is my first post here. Go easy on me.
Unconfirmed things
This is something i am not sure of myself, but i will leave it here. So.....Joshless explained dimensional tiering here.
(Note not gonna show the website where joshless said this stuff as it would reveal the guys identity and I just wanna protect him that’s all so I can’t show you his rant on dimensional tiering as it would reveal the website this ran)
Now i quote him,
They allow you more movement options. Just step into the fifth dimension and whoever you're fighting can't see or touch you. You can also see through their body, just as we could see through a 2D person, and mess with their organs if you'd like.
SO you can have a different perspective as a higher dimensional being instead of outright seeing lower dimensional beings as fiction. This pretty much debunks higher dimensions in nasuverse having reality fiction difference with lower ones entirely.
Counter-Counter Arguments
1. It is a low-end interpretation
Counter: It isn't, or else the Reality fiction difference would be a high end interpretation then. Especially when the difference between higher and lower dimensions were directly only brought up here vaguely and no difference between higher and lower dimensions were shown later in series like Fate Grand Order.
2. Nasu Treats Higher dimensions having infinite superiority over lower ones.
Counter: False. Apart from fate extra where higher dimensional beings where mentioned to have just a different perspective of time, there is literally no difference shown between higher and lower dimensions in other fate media, except higher dimensional beings being generally far more powerful.
3.Amarterasu having energy only rivalling a sun is an outlier and should not be taken into consideration.
Counter: Again, it is a literal official explanation of Amarterasu's power. Trying to disregard that saying it should not be considered because it is a very low end feat is the same as ignoring galaxy level astarte because that would be a low end feat. It is just a very poor excuse not to consider official statements just for the sake of making fate as high as possible.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Amaterasu?so=search#Abilities
In terms of raw strength, the White TitanSefaris stated to be comparable to Amaterasu, due to posseessing a power level of 300,000,000 in her seventh stage, whereas the legendary Golden White Face’s nine-tailed form stands at 387,420,489,[9]just likeTamamo-no-Maein her nine-tailed form.
From Fate/Extra Material
This is only natural, as the foundation of her being came from an offering to the sun. Thus, the scale of her existence is equivalent to that of the sun.
By the way, for each tail that returns, Cas-ko’s power increases by 9x. This means that in her max power state with all nine tails her power has increased by 99.
Supposing that we represent an A rank Servant with a numerical power level of, say, 100 (not including Noble Phantasms), Cas-ko with 1 tail has a power of about 9, and as you can see could never defeat an A rank Servant. But, as the number of tails increases… well it’s silly to even try comparing.
and if the Titan adjustment is added to that, 300 points at the first stage would become 3,000 at the second stage, 30,000 at the third stage, and so on. At the seventh stage, it would be 300,000,000.
This is an energy mass on the scale of a star, comparable to the power level of the legendary Golden White Face’s nine-tailed form (387,420,489).
4.Excalibur scales to Sefar so Ars Almadel Salomonis should be way more powerful.
False again. From Fate Grand order, Solomon Grand Caster profile
"The Time of Birth Has Come, He Is The One Who Master Everything"
Ars Almadel Salomonis.
King Solomon's Third Noble Phantasm. The "|" of original sin.
At a first glance it looks like a ring of light that encircles the Earth, but in reality it is an aggregation of some hundred millions lines of light.
Each one of these lines carry extreme damage values comparable to Excalibur, an A Rank Noble Phantasm.
Unfortunately, there is nothing on the surface of the Earth that surpasses the heat value of this Noble Phantasm.
https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Artoria_Pendragon#Rank_A
Note that each of the line of light is compared to an
A ranknoble phantasm, which definitely is no where near planet level. So each line of light rivals a SEALED Excalibur, not an UNSEALED one which beat Sefar.
5. Seeing time and past, present and future as a scroll because of higher dimensional existence makes it effectively a reality fiction difference
Counter: Except the verse in question debunks higher dimensions seeing the lower dimension as fiction each chance it gets.
Seriously, in Fate extra alone ,
they only SEE past, present and future at once, rather then directly seeing lower dimensional beings as complete fiction . Rin literally tells you that
YOU, Hakuno, an ordinary human CAN go to the recorded universe and look down at any point in past, present and future. I guess Hakuno sees multiverse as fiction now?
But seriously, let us see some of the times times higher dimensions is mentioned in Fate.
a.
Divine Spirits.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...39586802679858/Screenshot_20201120_162822.jpg
So Divine spirits, Aka gods are higher dimensional beings. Well.
To begin with, i am ignoring the pseudo Servants like ishtar since they are literally possessing a human body. But what about the actual gods in the flesh?
Goddess Rhongomyniad. She is the first Divine Spirit you fight directly in Fate Grand Order camelot singularity.
Note: I will be using Type Moon wikia since people writing it are reliable enough.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_Rhongomyniad#Abilities
Due to having wielded the
Holy Lancefor 1,500 years,
Artoria's mental structure and spiritual make-up drastically changed, transforming her into a full goddess, the highest-ranking
Divine Spirit there is.
After becoming a goddess, Artoria also acquired a new level of perspective on par with the
King of Magecraft, understanding both
his ideal and his purpose. Her gained awareness over the flow of time is such that she learned both that
Solomon's templeresides outside of time, and that in the
Babylonia Singularitythere may be
an "evil"that surpasses him on power.
[13]She also knows Dr. Roman and Ritsuka's
True Namesjust from looking at them without having met them before.
See this? It quite goes well "higher dimensional beings can see past, present and future at once". But where the hell does she is stated to see beings like Ritsuka as fiction? Mark you, Ritsuka is an ordinary human, and yet it is obvious that he CAN physically interact with her.
Her, a divine spirit, a higher dimensional being. To rub salt, bedivere, who was another human, physically fought her and pushed her back. Man, must suck to be pushed back by someone who is fiction compared to you.
But that's not it. Ritsuka can literally physically interact with multiple other FULL BLOWN Divine spirits. including Arjuna alter, Zeus, and what not. Where the hell do they see Ritsuka as fiction? There is literally no reality fiction difference here.
b.The King of Demon Gods, Goetia.
That's right. Goetia, the big G himself, the big bad is a higher dimensional being.
Does He see ritsuka as fiction? NO.
Was it said that after Romani's sacrifice, he lost a dimension and became a three dimensional being? NO. IF higher dimensional beings in fate sees lower dimensional entities as fiction, then i ask you, how tf is Ritsuka, a mere three dimensional human, an ordinary human, beating the living shit out of BEAST goetia with his fists?
If Goetia really saw Ritsuka effectively as fiction as a higher dimensional being, how tf can Ritsuka beat the shit out of beast goetia with his fists? The BEAST Goetia, not the king of human goetia who has a human body.
6.Zelretch sees all timelines as pages in a book so higher dimenions have r/F difference with lower ones.
Completely false again. Where is it stated exactly that Zelretch is a higher dimensional being? Secondly as a user of second magic, he literally can observe parellel worlds.
Once upon a time, he engaged the King of Vampires in single combat. He pushed back a boulder falling from the heavens in a feat of power. Such a monster was Zelretch.
Whereas he has crossed unto numerous futures; numerous Adjacent Realities, he is an observer that yet awaits 'the Final Answer.'
They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true.
Apart from his Mystic Codes, Zelretch is capable of using his Second Magic in other ways. The full abilities of his Magic are yet to be revealed, but it does give him the ability to observe and travel through different worlds and even timelines. He is capable of observing the different worlds he sees, being able to see their eventual outcomes.
Zelretch performs the observation of parallel worlds inside a spherical room, said to be a "completed world." It is jet black in appearance, dotted with points of light resembling stars. As he dictates the characteristics of an observed world, these points of light rapidly rotate with the turning of the pages of the book he utilizes. This room is hard to enter, Zelretch possessing a count of those with the ability, such as Caubac Alcatraz.[17]
Within the center of the room floats a wooden chair upon which he sits, said to "imbue the space around it with a conspicuous gravity" simply through existing. The chair's appearance is described as "extravagant" with its wood possessing a "refined hue," but not repulsively ornamental like that owned by the elite. The very significance of the chair in the space is such that an unrefined person would be "consumed by the weight of the chair’s existence and hidden from surrounding view."[17]
From the chair, he utilizes a hovering book that, while the size and thickness of a standard encyclopedia, flips through tens of thousands of pages in an instant at his beckoning. It inscribes and erases pages in real time, filled with information on different worlds and the specifications, down to the very individual characteristics of a person.
[17]
Do you see? Nasuverse never saw higher dimension having outright reality fiction difference with lower ones, just a different perspective of time.
Edit: LMAO, nasuverse fanbase at a certain trash of a site have actually started bashing the person i sent to collect counter arguments, and their main "debunk" for my post is :
"Your arguments are weird!"
"NOOOOO they are outerversal because i said so!"
Lmao, seriously vsbattles, do you have to seriously show how toxic you are? Why don't you get out of that little hole you are hiding and debate me face to face? Can't debate where you can't just ban people if they knock your arguments?
i just want to see if you guys can counter counter counter this guys arguments
Since he can counter counter your arguments.
