Nasuverse Discussion Board 21

[RegisNex1232]

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder...lections_of_babylon_part_twenty_one_part_two/

Ereshkigal:

So, how did I do?

See, it's no big deal. Even if it's Tiamat, she's only an ordinary goddess in the underworld. Under my and my Garula soul's combined attacks, it's no big deal! It's -

(The Chaos Tide begins to eat away at the underworld)

Ereshkigal:

W-wha -!

Romani:

The Chaos Tide is corrupting the Underworld! This is bad, if this keeps up the underworld will be taken over by her!

Also, what's with this reaction?!

The spiritual core of Beast II is expanding. It's reverting back to the times of the Jurassic! This, this is no longer just the essence of the divine, but an undoubted divine body!

The Japanese translation seems to say something else?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"An undoubtedly divine body"

So in other words, before that point she was not in her true divine body of her true deity status. She merely had the essence of divinity.

 

[RegisNex1232]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...scussion-thread.280679/page-468#post-31083175

@ Ereshkigal

What say you? I believe it's good as finished. Even the Goddess Tiamat is within the Underworld merely a goddess. Before the combined onslaught of myself and the Gallu, not a single being -- a single --

• Chaos Tide manifests.

@ Ereshkigal

Wha -- what --

@ Dr. Roman

Chaos Tide (Òé▒ÒéñÒé¬Òé╣Òé┐ÒéñÒâë), compromising (õ¥ÁÚúƒ) the Underworld! This is bad! If we leave it alone, the Underworld will be overtaken! And that's not all ... what is this?

Beast II Saint Graph (Ú£èÕƒ║) signature -- rapidly dilating!

The Divine Regression (þÑ×õ╗úÕø×Õ©░) of the Saint Graph has advanced unto the Jurassic Era.

That's no longer a Divinity (þÑ׵Ǻ)! Unmistakably, it's the very Corpus of a God (þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô)!

@ Ereshkigal

Eh, eh, eh -- !?

Wh- what's happened!?

Is it something that I've done -- !?

@ Dr. Roman

Saint Graph Dilation Operations / Inflation (Ú£èÕƒ║Þå¿Õ╝ÁÕÀÑþ¿ï / ÒéñÒâ│ÒâòÒâ¼Òâ╝ÒéÀÒâºÒâ│) has ceased. Continuous reactivation (ÚÇúþÂÜÕåìÞÁÀÕïò) of Mana Reactor (Ú¡öÕèøþéëÕ┐â) confirmed ... !

Injuries incurred by the plummet into the Underworld are regenerating! -- it's come ... ! This is --

This is the true appearance of Beast II!


Another translation fails to mention Servants at all.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

I posted that already lol

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Another translation that makes a distinction between something just being a "divinity" which is also used to refer to gods like Ishtar being summoned in human bodies and something having the actual true body of a god.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Just for the record, I am pretty sure Tiamat didn't become a servant with very high divinity until the concept of death was imposed forcefully upon her by King Hassan if I am not mistaken.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Another translation that makes a distinction between something just being a "divinity" which is also used to refer to gods like Ishtar being summoned in human bodies and something having the actual true body of a god.

Divinity =/= Servant so what is the point here again? Ultimately Tiamat pre regression is just as much of a goddess as the Lion King or Quetz, and being a Divinity is different from both having the body of a God or just being a randomly summoned Servant.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Just for the record, I am pretty sure Tiamat didn't become a servant with very high divinity until the concept of death was imposed upon her by King Hassan if I am not mistaken.

Sorry, you are mistaken.

Tiamat falls into underworld -> tiamat regresses -> tiamat is stated to have just been a divinity / servant with divinity, and has now become a true deity / gains the true body of a god -> merlin and hassan show up -> hassan does his thing.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I have played through Babylona and do recall that Tiamat wasn't a servant with high divinity until that moment happen. I might as well get the scans for this since it has been awhile since I got into the story of Babylonia. Will get the scans from FGO NA and then see if other people are willing to use FGO JP fan translations to ensure this is accurate or not.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Divinity =/= Servant so what is the point here again? Ultimately Tiamat pre regression is just as much of a goddess as the Lion King or Quetz, and being a Divinity is different from both having the body of a God or just being a randomly summoned Servant.

Actually, Divinity is used to refer to pretty much any goddess in Babylon, including the ones that are explicitly summoned into human bodies, something you seem to be making a point of ignoring.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Who are pointedly not Servants until we summon them at Chaldea, something you seem to be ignoring very well. Like what is the point? Is it just to deny that Tiamat, Quetz, Eresh, Ishtar, Lion King, Ivan and so on aren't Divinities?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I have played through Babylona and do recall that Tiamat wasn't a servant with high divinity until that moment happen. I might as well get the scans for this since it has been awhile since I got into the story of Babylonia. Will get the scans from FGO NA and then see if other people are willing to use FGO JP fan translations to ensure this is accurate or not.

Dude I literally just watched the cutscene.

She's explicitly stated to no longer be "just a servant with divinity", as her spirit graph has grown and turned her into an actual deity / now she has the true body of a god. Which pretty obviously means that before that saint graph growth, she was just a servant with divinity.

The

Merlin shows up, calls flowers, says the heroes have done all they can, and then says death is coming to help out because Guda was a nice bloke, and Hassan shows up, does his awesome quote, and proceeds to give her the concept of death.

At that point maybe she's a servant again, IDK, I'd seen enough, but she was not only a servant after Hassan death'd her.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Who are pointedly not Servants until we summon them at Chaldea, something you seem to be ignoring very well. Like what is the point? Is it just to deny that Tiamat, Quetz, Eresh, Ishtar, Lion King, Ivan and so on aren't Divinities?

They can all be Divinities as much as they want.

But they aren't true deities / have "undoubtedly the corpus of a god", because a clear distinction is made between being a divinity and being an actual deity / having the true body of a god thanks to Tiamat's reversion to jurassic era.

They aren't the god's true body. Therefore there is nothing contradicting that a god's true self is a concept.

Get it?

 

[RegisNex1232]

I'm not sure why you think we should take one translation that adds in stuff not mentioned by two other translations?

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Tiamat was never a servant. Thats likely the NA patch mistranslating again. Not the first time they did it though

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm not sure why you think we should ignore a clear distinction that is made between a Divinity and the actual true body of a god?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Tiamat was never a servant. Thats likely the NA patch mistranslating again. Not the first time they did it though

My point still stands in both translations that you and Regis have brought forward, so this isn't a counter point.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except for the fact that Divinities like Kama and Lion King exist with their own bodies. And aren't exactly just concepts deep down. You don't seem to be getting much.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You don't have a point? You seem to think Divinity = Super strong Servant, which is clearly not the case with some of the various Divinities floating around.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Lion King is Artoria turned into a goddess, and only exists in the time after the crusades, which was several hundred years past the end of the Age of the Gods, at which point gods were heavily nerf'd anyway. She is not the standard.

Kama: "Normally a male deity, he has manifested as a female Pseudo-Servant in the body of Sakura Matou."

You don't seem to be able to keep the needless hostility towards anyone who disagrees with you out of your tone, so I suggest you do.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

þÑ׵Ǻ and þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô are to term used to refer to 2 types of different thing

We never really see any greek or roman god around so this is just an analogy for me

Say that the god Mars is a very much physical god with matter that you can interact with, lets call him mars A. Later on he became an identical existence to his authority and he became something like "war/bloodshed itself", lets call him mars B. When age of gods come to an end, mars became a divine spirit as a consequence, lets call him mars DS for now

^All that is þÑ׵Ǻ. So someone like lion king, tiamat before you dumped her into uruk underworld, skadi, the norse pantheon before surtr got out of control, ishtar, etc. All of which aren't really concept but an entity that you can interact with.

þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô would be timaat after she did her jurassic regression to her prime one shape or that one war god that fought sefar that would later on became ares/mars in pre extella story

Which bring us to my initial point

Not all gods underwent that process of becoming an identical existence with the authority they possess. Some still have their physical bodies too. Ivan for example is rocking a body of a god but him =/= concept/authority

And most of the norse gods in the lostbelt were still in their mars A state. So saying that a god (þÑ׵Ǻ) true nature being concept is somewhat of a misnomer because they're not always like that. They still something that walk the earth as in literally walking, or flying

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You don't have a point? You seem to think Divinity = Super strong Servant, which is clearly not the case with some of the various Divinities floating around.

If you think I don't have a point, you clearly haven't been following this conversation.

That's not what I think at all so don't try to make a strawman fallacy.

My point is that nothing contradicts a god's true form being a concept because a god's true form is never physically fought when said god is not nerf'd to the ground in various ways.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not all gods underwent that process of becoming an identical existence with the authority they possess. Some still have their physical bodies too. Ivan for example is rocking a body of a god but him =/= concept/authority

And most of the norse gods in the lostbelt were still in their mars A state. So saying that a god (þÑ׵Ǻ) true nature being concept is somewhat of a misnomer because they're not always like that. They still something that walk the earth as in literally walking, or flying

Ok, but most true gods would still be concepts because said true gods have merged with their authorities as you put it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Not all gods underwent that process of becoming an identical existence with the authority they possess. Some still have their physical bodies too. Ivan for example is rocking a body of a god but him =/= concept/authority

And most of the norse gods in the lostbelt were still in their mars A state. So saying that a god (þÑ׵Ǻ) true nature being concept is somewhat of a misnomer because they're not always like that. They still something that walk the earth as in literally walking, or flying

Ok, but most true gods would still be concepts because said true gods have merged with their authorities as you put it.

To quote myself in FGO NA, it was mentioned she is a god according to her profile while talking to Regis earlier regarding the creation of the world by her and some other god, it did mention she is a god, not a servant which counters your point of her being a servant from the start.

"Literally from her own FGO profile in-game."

 

[RegisNex1232]

You don't actually have a point though. Like Heavens Feel said, Divinity/Divine Spirit =/= Body of a God and is definitely not just a Servant with super high Divinity Rank. Add on the fact that not all are their concepts until things happen, like Mesoamerican gods being bacteria from space or Greek gods being hinted to be mecha-like, from references to Artemis. There's a difference that the NA localization seems to have missed, unlike fan translations.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

True gods are gods before they became their authority though.

The progression p much went like

þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô , this thing is the prime one at the time -> Sefar crash at their house -> not so prime one anymore -> time went on and they became god þÑ׵Ǻ that walks the earth -> some more time later they became synonimous with their authority god þÑ׵Ǻ, some stay as they were -> old age of gods end globally -> these god þÑ׵Ǻ became divine spirit þÑ׵Ǻ and migrate to the reverse because they're not permitted in the world with human as the prime one in it

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Tiamat back in the last chapter of her singularity went back from a þÑ׵Ǻ to þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô. Ivan's body is a þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô body too, speaking on the topic of body of a god

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Divinity/Divine Spirit =/= Body of a God and is definitely not just a Servant with super high Divinity Rank.

I agree, and have repeatedly said the same thing, so why are you saying this like you're arguing against something I've said?

Add on the fact that not all are their concepts until things happen, like Mesoamerican gods being bacteria from space or Greek gods being hinted to be mecha-like, from references to Artemis. There's a difference that the NA localization seems to have missed, unlike fan translations.
But they can become their concepts apparently by merging with their authorities as Heavens puts it. Or they are incarnated by the World to become a spirit/concept of nature.

Also "you don't have a point" when I just spelled my point out for you and saying points that I have made myself to argue against me makes it look like you're really not reading what I'm saying very well.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

To quote myself in FGO NA, it was mentioned she is a god according to her profile while talking to Regis earlier regarding the creation of the world by her and some other god, it did mention she is a god, not a servant which counters your point of her being a servant from the start.

You're beating a dead horse mate. We're past the point where my argument was that she was a servant.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Tiamat back in the last chapter of her singularity went back from a þÑ׵Ǻ to þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô. Ivan's body is a þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô body too, speaking on the topic of body of a god

Ok but

Is he fought physically in that state without being debuffed in any way?

 

[Heavens_Feel]

They can dont necessarily mean they were that all along. And surtr kinda mess things up when the gods were still mars A too. If surtr's blade kill god when they were already a part of nature, then that wouldn't be more conceptual than what if he wipe out my house. Because my house is a part of nature too. If surtr kill god when they were still living being that walks the earth than his sword just do what it was stated to do which was killing living things

 

[RegisNex1232]

You seem to think that a god's true form is their concept, which isn't the case at all given how gods have existed prior to the merging with their concepts/Authorities. As for incarnation by the Earth, that tends to be a True Ancestor/Elemental, rather than a god.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Who? Ivan?

Yea. It was like when we fought simba. Dude was like all guns ablazing and we only beat him through various circumstances. DOwning his thunder defense and separating him from mammoth for example

 

[HammerStrikes219]

@Monarch

Oh I thought you were still on that. My bad.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You seem to think that a god's true form is their concept, which isn't the case at all given how gods have existed prior to the merging with their concepts/Authorities. As for incarnation by the Earth, that tends to be a True Ancestor/Elemental, rather than a god.

I remember it being stated in one of the past Nasu threads that the way things like bacteria became Divine Spirits embodying aspects of nature was that Gaia incarnated them to be so.

So it's more like I think they were physical things like bacteria, then Gaia turned them into concepts of nature.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Monarch
Oh I thought you were still on that. My bad.

All good

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Who? Ivan?
Yea. It was like when we fought simba. Dude was like all guns ablazing and we only beat him through various circumstances. DOwning his thunder defense and separating him from mammoth for example

The same Mammoth that you said he merged with to achieve divinity...?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Musashi cut Mammoth Ivan's trunk with her NP before he was forcefully separated from it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Her NP cuts through fate and misfortune though, it's not exactly a purely physical attack.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

The damage it deals is still physical though.