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Nasuverse Discussion Board 21

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I'm pretty sure servants should have limited accausality since they don't leave the throne of heroes even if their living counter part is killed in the past
 
@Hammer

That CRT has been made, discussed and concluded ages ago Hammer. Before you even joined this wiki, in fact.

Independent Manifestation is the ability to exist across all of time. That's outright Type 3 Acausality.
 
Solacis said:
@Hammer
That CRT has been made, discussed and concluded ages ago Hammer. Before you even joined this wiki, in fact.

Independent Manifestation is the ability to exist across all of time. That's outright Type 3 Acausality.
Click to expand...
Actually now I think about it. I kinda forget what Independent Manifestation does anyway.
 
Solacis said:
@Hammer
"That CRT has been made, discussed and concluded ages ago Hammer. Before you even joined this wiki, in fact.

Independent Manifestation is the ability to exist across all of time. That's outright Type 3 Acausality.
Click to expand...
'''Independent Manifestation' (Õìÿþï¼ÚíòþÅ¥, Tandoku Kenge?) is a special Skill that permits unsupported manifestation into reality, without necessity of energy cost or of summoning by a Master; effectively, the Skill serves as an enhanced version of Independent Action. Being that the skillholder is signified as a confirmed existence (Õ¡ÿÕ£¿Òüîþó║Õ«ÜÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéï, sonzai ga kakutei-shiteiru?, lit. "existence is confirmed"), the bearer gains a resistance towards instant-death effect attacks (Õì│µ¡╗þ│╗µö╗µÆâ, kokushi-kei kougeki?) and attacks affected by time manipulation (µÖéÚûôµôìõ¢£, jikan sousa?). The Skill is normally restricted to the Beast class, and potentially Heroic Spirits that qualify as Grand Servants.[2][21][22]


So it must be a different reason on why Goetia has Type 1 and 2 on his profile. Not sure about Type 3 though.
 
Independent Manifestation: B

A skill for autonomously materializing on the present era. Because this skill denotes the way of being of "constantly existing anywhere in the space-time continuum", not only does it negate attacks such as time paradoxes that employ time travel, but it also cancels all instant-kill-type of attacks."

- From Tiamat's profile

Merlin has Rank A.
 
Solacis said:
"Independent Manifestation: B'''''A skill for autonomously materializing on the present era. Because this skill denotes the way of being of "constantly existing anywhere in the space-time continuum", not only does it negate attacks such as time paradoxes that employ time travel, but it also cancels all instant-kill-type of attacks." '- From Tiamat's profile
Merlin has Rank A.
Click to expand...
So this qualifies for Type 1 Acausality in Tiamat's case.
 
Also I'm pretty sure killing gods from the age of the gods is a big deal seeing as Babylon has us blatantly told that gods (in their true state at least) are concepts. If i remember correctly the quote was something along the lines of:

"The Sky was a god. Love was a god. Death was a god." Etc etc. They weren't just gods of things, they were those things.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Having A rank doesn't mean you have the same as Tiamat.
He shouldn't get the "exists across time" thing.
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I can agree with that as Merlin is a special case as he does reside in a special location isn't he?
 
Not all gods underwent that process of becoming an identical existence with the authority they possess. Some still have their physical bodies too. Ivan for example is rocking a body of a god but him =/= concept/authority
 
Seeing as ivan's Lostbelt isn't released in NA yet I can't speak for that, but I don't remember Babylon saying anything about them becoming their authority, it just says they were.

Also Ivan is from a lostbelt where a lot of rules work different anyway so I don't think he's a great counter example.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Seeing as ivan's Lostbelt isn't released in NA yet I can't speak for that, but I don't remember Babylon saying anything about them becoming their authority, it just says they were.

Also Ivan is from a lostbelt where a lot of rules work different anyway so I don't think he's a great counter example.
Click to expand...
You have any proof for this? Because if not, I'm not seeing why Ivan isn't a great example given that he's also compared to the likes of Zeus.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Wait was Ivan being compared to Zeus directly or was it implied to be the case?
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Caenis spoke about him being a challenge for Wodime's LB King/Chief deity, and we know it's Zeus from LB 2.

Caenis says that although the foundation of this Lostbelt is poor, its king is a top-class monster.


Caenis:

...Yeah. Though I only caught a glimpse, that was hideous. He might win in a brawl even against our chief deity. Do your best in turning things around unexpectedly, Kadoc Zemlupus. You want to impress the girl, don't you? Isn't that nice, a Master and Servant couple! If that happens then it's finally my turn. I'll make this proud princess into my woman right before your eyes!


Kirschtaria:

Queen of Scandinavia.

You, who witnessed an end unlike that of the Grecian world where the humans forgot, where mythology brought down the curtains on itself in its own destruction.

Protect the Fantasy Tree. As long as that tree exists, the Lostbelt will not be destroyed.

I pray that you deny your own fate, and choose the path of survival. Furthermore, I hope that you will contend with my Fantasy Tree.

My Fantasy Tree is already completed.

If Scandinavia has the World Tree which is the foundation of the world, then the Fantasy Tree of Greece is one that holds up the sky---

Thus, my ally, the great god Zeus, has named it such. [The World Tree of Atlas].

And to you of Chaldea, this Fantasy Tree is your greatest target for elimination.

The roots of my Lostbelt's Fantasy Tree have already covered eighty percent of the Earth's surface.

Even if you cut down the Fantasy Trees of the other Lost Belts, as long as the World Tree of Atlas is present, Panhuman History will not be restored.

Queen of Scandinavia, I look forward to your way of godhood.

…That's right. You could call this the revenge of the gods. Of those gods, who were chased from their ruling throne by humans.

And I have the intent of having man make use of god.

A perfect Age of Gods. A glorious history where weak humans are abolished.

A world which will not be smothered no matter how much human consciousness boils over, a living space with not a single flaw or fragment, that is what I will create.

There will be no mercy to those who would hinder me. I hope that you will choose a better future alongside Ophelia.
 
@Regis

Hmm so he is basically stated "he might win in a brawl against Zeus".

Hmmm I not sure in this case as not a lot of details about Zeus has been revealed other than him being the chief deity of the Greek Pantheon I assume.
 
Lostbelt is different in a way that they're timelines that were not supposed to be but still is. Most of the mechanic in works are still identical to the one established and we know about. How norse runes work, what was defined as an existence known as true ancestor and how they work, gods as a lifeform, etc

Babylon showed that gods are identical to the authority they hold, which was where the gods=their concept came from. But the very premise of that whole gods becoming their own authorities mean they would still have a physical bodies before their deification. Later on it was also shown that some gods were still in their predeified body too. Skadi would've showed up in her predeified body if it wasn't for Surtr being there too. Ivan having the body of an olympians or something on the same rank, which led to Caenis' comment comparing him to Zeus and how his thunderbolt things are on the level of divine spirit/god. There's also the relation line between orion/artemis and another servant which i forgot who with the latter saying "isn't greco roman gods supposed to be more mechanical?" or something to that effect. Etc
 
"He might win in a brawl with a god" is very different to "he was an actual god with a physical body as opposed to the ones without"
 
Ivan post fusion with mammoth is divine spirit level, and the comparison i was talking about wasn't even about who would win in a fight lol. The other party just said hes similar to a true body of an olympian gods
 
And there's actually an example of differing entities between divinity and an actual true form god in babylon too. Namely Tiamat when she regress back into jurassic era and change from being a divinity into a body of a god. And tiamat is a very much fleshy physical monster that you can punch lol even before she regress back into her jurassic body form
 
You mean after she regresses into jurassic form. Before she's just a servant with divinity so of course she can be punched.

Also, that's also quite easily explained. You never physically fight Tiamat's true form as a god.

"The only way she could be affected by the normal laws of physics and be harmed is as the last thing on earth to die"

One minute and zero fights after regressing to become a true god, she has the concept of death added to her Saint Graph by gramps. She's also in the Underworld when she's fought . She's now subject to the normal laws of physics and can be harmed, so it's pretty clear why you can actually fight her physically.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
You mean after she regresses into jurassic form. Before she's just a servant with divinity so of course she can be punched.

Also, that's also quite easily explained. You never physically fight Tiamat's true form as a god.

"The only way she could be affected by the normal laws of physics and be harmed is as the last thing on earth to die"

One minute and zero fights after regressing to become a true god, she has the concept of death added to her Saint Graph by gramps. She's also in the Underworld when she's fought . She's now subject to the normal laws of physics and can be harmed, so it's pretty clear why you can actually fight her physically.
Click to expand...
She's not a Servant before waking up, Tiamat is a Divinity who regresses back to the body of a God, when she fully becomes a Beast. So unless you have more than conjecture and ignoring future chapters, I fail to see your point. She's not the only one around, given that Ishtar, Ereshkigal and Quetz aren't Servants until you summon them later.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
You mean after she regresses into jurassic form. Before she's just a servant with divinity so o
Click to expand...
You are sorta forgetting prior to that, Mashu and Quezt including the Master was going after Tiamat to defeat her or stall as much as possible IIRC which failed of course.
 
It was mentioned in the chapter of Babylonia that Tiamat was a goddess of Earth or to be specific the goddesss who created the world in her own FGO profile.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
She's not a Servant before waking up, Tiamat is a Divinity who regresses back to the body of a God, when she fully becomes a Beast.
Click to expand...
TiamatJurassic
No, she's a servant with Divinity up until she regresses to the Jurassic Age.
"Reversion to the Age of the Gods has reached the Jurassic age. That's no longer just a servant possessing divinity. It's an actual deity"

So unless you have more than conjecture and ignoring future chapters, I fail to see your point.

My conjecture as you put it is putting together the information we are given. I haven't ignored anything. I was presented with a few things about Ivan having divine level strength and something about the gods revenge on humans. Until I see quotes about the true forms of gods having bodies specifically stated to be physical, nothing shown has countered my points.

She's not the only one around, given that Ishtar, Ereshkigal and Quetz aren't Servants until you summon them later.

Ishtar and Ereshkigal are both gods summoned into the bodies of humans in the same way a Pseudo servant is made, they aren't true gods in their true form. Quetz is also summoned into the body of a female because lolvenus.
 
It was mentioned in the chapter of Babylonia that Tiamat was a goddess of Earth or to be specific the goddesss who created the world in her own FGO profile.

She didn't create the world, where's this nonsense coming from?
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
You are sorta forgetting prior to that, Mashu and Quezt including the Master was going after Tiamat to defeat her or stall as much as possible IIRC which failed of course.
Click to expand...
And never once managed to do so. Supernova? Got the mud, nothing else. Giant pheonix fireball? Didn't even scratch Tiamat. And nothing else touched her.

The only thing that even slowed her down was Gorgon arriving in her true goddess form.
 
You fought her both when she was still a divinity and after her jurassic regression back into her prime one body. The former kind of work until it doesn't due to her auto restoration and the latter work after you and everyone ganged up on her
 
It was mentioned in the chapter of Babylonia that Tiamat was a goddess of Earth or to be specific the goddesss who created the world in her own FGO profile.

She didn't create the world, where's this nonsense coming from?


Literally from her own FGO profile in-game.
BD34372C-D8D0-4A08-A4EC-6E3CFE4ED89C
 
Romani didn't said servant. He just said divinity as in referring to stuff like divine spirit

Romani:

Chaos Tide (Òé▒ÒéñÒé¬Òé╣Òé┐ÒéñÒâë), compromising (õ¥ÁÚúƒ) the Underworld! This is bad! If we leave it alone, the Underworld will be overtaken! And that's not all ... what is this? Beast II Saint Graph (Ú£èÕƒ║) signature -- rapidly dilating! The Divine Regression (þÑ×õ╗úÕø×Õ©░) of the Saint Graph has advanced unto the Jurassic Era. That's no longer a Divinity (þÑ׵Ǻ)! Unmistakably, it's the very Corpus of a God (þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô)!
 
What are you talking about.

She's explicitly "Just a Servant with Divinity" up until the reversion to the jurassic age. And after she reverts to that point, she promptly has the concept of death placed on her and was the only thing alive in the (Under)World. Which, as the other scan I showed stated, subjects her to the normal laws of physics and allows her to be harmed.

Tiamat as a true deity without being nerfed is never once fought physically

Edit: Ok, but you know what else is referred to as a Divinity? Ishtar, who is explicity summoned into a human body. Calling it a "divinity" doesn't automatically mean "the true form of the god", it just means "the god".
 
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