Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

[SlendVeny]

3-C Shibai. We're coming for you, Adnyeus

 

[DavidTPPM]

3-C Shibai. We're coming for you, Adnyeus

3-C is such a random tier to put Shibai in lmao

 

[BlackeJan]

Well, hate to break it to ya, but your belief is wrong lol.
1 through 8 are relative to each other.

That doesn’t make sense though. Just cause we have showing or think it is doesn’t mean it should be true. How would Kurama be stronger but the rest just happens to have the same amount of strength??? They all were created the same with the same chakra they got

 

[Damage3245]

How would Kurama be stronger but the rest just happens to have the same amount of strength???

It's almost like he's the Biju for the main character and more important for the story.

 

[DavidTPPM]

That doesn’t make sense though. Just cause we have showing or think it is doesn’t mean it should be true. How would Kurama be stronger but the rest just happens to have the same amount of strength??? They all were created the same with the same chakra they got

Have you considered the fact that Kurama might just he HIM?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Pretty sure the Gedo Mazo folded those easily so the scaling chain is likely isolated. But you can probably argue that Choji would downscale 100x from Gedo Mazo which puts him at 300 MTs (7-A) which could scale to every "Elite Jonin" (currently 7-B+) tier.

This does have an issue in which Choji would have a jutsu that puts him 7x Bijuu level, even stronger than early KCM2 Naruto. Consistency issues.

Gedo mazo folded choji and his dad if I remember correctly.
The bigger problem is base guy making it shreak in pain from attacking it's pinkie.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Basically the 5th dimension needs to stretch out to a length equivalent of the width of uncountably infinite Low 2-C structures. That's what I mean by significant size.

6D Shibai ftw.

It doesn't need to be that large actually. Stuffs like the 2c structures beinf infinitesimally small compared t the 5d structure is enough.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It doesn't need to be that large actually. Stuffs like the 2c structures beinf infinitesimally small compared t the 5d structure is enough.

You say that as if that was any easier lmao

 

[karo_senpaii]

That doesn’t make sense though. Just cause we have showing or think it is doesn’t mean it should be true. How would Kurama be stronger but the rest just happens to have the same amount of strength??? They all were created the same with the same chakra they got

Right from part one it was made clear for kurama only to be a beast compared to the rest. To the extent bro's ways were said to just be like a natural disaster, hatred himself. Only tailed beast to never have a jinjuriki control his power. I mean just look at the obito vs Naruto fight. That's the perfect place to show all tailed beast are relative except half kurama who whooped their asses. Also kurama got the short end of the stick in terms of chakra nature and kekkei genkai so maybe that complements

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Arc can I also add this ? Once I beat you, you will create a CRT using the arguments you conceded to. It only makes sense.

If you beat me, you can make a CRT with those arguments, and I will support you in that thread.

No arc. Uzuhiko isn't one of the major reasons you guys disagree with MAS>ETSO. It's just you don't believe the statement makes reference to all ninjustu. I know this coz when it was being argued uzuhiko did not even exist.

News flash buddy, our opinions then have evolved in the now. I’m speaking on the present not the past. And yes it is a major reason atm, like who tf are you to tell me why I disagree with stuff? Is Uzuhiko the only reason, no, is it a reason, yes.

 

[HelloThere1089]

It doesn't need to be that large actually. Stuffs like the 2c structures beinf infinitesimally small compared t the 5d structure is enough.

The tiering system page says low 1C starts at a collection of uncountably infinite low 2C structures. I am just verbatim quoting the wiki standards.

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level[note 2] above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space).

Equivalently, this tier can be reached by affecting/creating/destroying/embodying an uncountably infinite number of universes (More specifically, as many universes as there are real numbers)

Also 2C being infinitesimally small compared to a structure is also the same thing.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Looks like we’re speed-running to 1000.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Btw, my Juubito thread was accepted right? Where he scales to 4x Juubi, likely higher. Idk if it was implemented.

 

[Samlex1234]

I never said Naruto adheres to real world physics. If I thought that then I wouldn't spend time here. That has no bearing on my point tho.

Exactly, it picks and chooses when to apply real world physics. Which means it can choose to have tears in spacetime without having anything to do with mass and gravity.

Chakra isn't irl energy or matter. It's a supernatural concept that can be converted to matter or energy as we know irl. You need to prove that chakra bending space works the same way as energy or matter bending space cuz we can see chakra doesn't act like that. This is why we have standards for black holes. Even if a character supposedly creates a black hole, but it doesn't act the way a black hole would, it isn't given the stats of a black hole. Same with lasers and lightning. You need to first provide evidence that chakra bending space works in the same way as irl matter or energy.

Fiction still needs to prove certain things to get past the standards on this wiki. Tearing spacetime doesn't have concrete standards but your proposal isn't likely to be accepted.

Like I stated above, you first would need to show thatbending space via chakra functions the same way as bending space via matter or energy. You are starting with an assumption there. Which is not what we do when treating SoL statements or Uzuhiko having planetary KE.

Exactly, it picks and chooses when to apply real world physics. Which means it can choose to have tears in spacetime without having anything to do with mass and gravity.

Answer- you are wrong. In this case we already got information that indeed the mass of charkra kurama is the one causing the abnormalities is the spatial curvature and the side effect are what is being ignored here as you can see. Thus my point stands. ( I will go over why over why your chakra interpretation is wrong below)

Chakra isn't irl energy or matter. It's a supernatural concept that can be converted to matter or energy as we know irl. You need to prove that chakra bending space works the same way as energy or matter bending space cuz we can see chakra doesn't act like that. This is why we have standards for black holes. Even if a character supposedly creates a black hole, but it doesn't act the way a black hole would, it isn't given the stats of a black hole. Same with lasers and lightning. You need to first provide evidence that chakra bending space works in the same way as irl matter or energy.

Answer-This is an example of the straw man fallacy, as it oversimplifies the argument about chakra’s interaction with physical phenomena.
don't ignore my previous arguments. Kurama is a Mass of Chakra he not just of some supernatural concept alone, he also contain the very energy itself Chakra is depicted with properties that allow it to interact with the physical world in significant ways, including the creation of ninjutsu. Hence why when Momoshiki was directly draining the energy from Kurama he goes wow we are now halfway there (quantifiable), pointing to the fact that this is in fact real physical energy and he can interact with it. Please stop this strawman. Kurama is a mass of energy.


Prove bending space via chakra functions the same way as bending space via matter or energy

The above statement is simply an oversimplification. What do you mean to prove chakra in the case of Kurama that is a mass of energy = energy

nope Kaguya's ability to control timespace at that scale is limited to teleporting/moving, so why are you bringing up creation and destruction

No again don't ignore arguments stop that stuff.

Characters or objects who can significantly affect,

We saw that she was able to move her Time-spaces through transportation/ teleporting/ moving, regardless she still moves it, indeed significantly affecting a space-time continuum and she is using her energy to do this.


No it is not limited to teleporting and movement alone, she is affecting the space-time continuum on a universal scale.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Answer- you are wrong. In this case we already got information that indeed the mass of charkra kurama is the one causing the abnormalities is the spatial curvature and the side effect are what is being ignored here as you can see. Thus my point stands. ( I will go over why over why your chakra interpretation is wrong below)

Mass in this context doesn't mean matter. Mass means collection of chakra. Words have different meanings based on context.

Answer-This is an example of the straw man fallacy, as it oversimplifies the argument about chakra’s interaction with physical phenomena.
don't ignore my previous arguments. Kurama is a Mass of Chakra he not just of some supernatural concept alone, he also contain the very energy itself Chakra is depicted with properties that allow it to interact with the physical world in significant ways, including the creation of ninjutsu. Hence why when Momoshiki was directly draining the energy from Kurama he goes wow we are now halfway there (quantifiable), pointing to the fact that this is in fact real physical energy and he can interact with it. Please stop this strawman. Kurama is a mass of energy.

You keep saying Kurama is a mass of energy as if it means anything. The mass used in this statement doesn't mean "matter". And yes Chakra is a supernatural concept because it doesn't exist in real life. Momoshiki being able to interact with it doesn't make it not supernatural. As it stands chakra isn't "matter" and isn't irl energy. It is a supernatural form of energy. So irl relativistic physics can't be applied to it. Which means it can cause tears in the space time without actually exerting black holes level of energy on it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Looks like we’re speed-running to 1000.

The angry Samlex strat is OP and banned in most speedrun sites

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Irl Black Holes don’t create glass like cracks in space anyway. Idk where people get the “cracked spacetime = black hole” from.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Irl Black Holes don’t create glass like cracks in space anyway. Idk where people get the “cracked spacetime = black hole” from.

I was about to drop that on him . Just like lasers and lightning, these tears need to act like how a hypothetical one irl would.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I was about to drop that on him . Just like lasers and lightning, these tears need to act like how a hypothetical one irl would.

Also, if we want to entail that the chakra is acting like an actual black hole, then you’d concede that for that to be true, the Naruto earth would collapse in on itself and become a black hole. You cannot hold the position that it abides by physics to grant it the 10^47 joules or whatever, without it abiding by physics lol.

 

[Testarossa002]

Also, if we want to entail that the chakra is acting like an actual black hole, then you’d concede that for that to be true, the Naruto earth would collapse in on itself and become a black hole. You cannot hold the position that it abides by physics to grant it the 10^47 joules or whatever, without it abiding by physics lol.

"AOE fallacy"

 

[HelloThere1089]

Also, if we want to entail that the chakra is acting like an actual black hole, then you’d concede that for that to be true, the Naruto earth would collapse in on itself and become a black hole. You cannot hold the position that it abides by physics to grant it the 10^47 joules or whatever, without it abiding by physics lol.

Yeah I already made this point.

 

[Samlex1234]

Yeah I already made this point.

Nonsense I already refuted that. Hence the Uzuhiko argument.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Nonsense I already refuted that. Hence the Uzuhiko argument.

And I already refuted your refutation. Hence me saying ignoring irl consequences of Uzuhiko doesn't require you to assume Uzuhiko's mechanics. In the case of spatial tears you need to start with assumptions that you haven't proven to be true yet.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Do you think Kaguya is physically grabbing the dimensions and swapping them for each other or something?

youre wanking it lowkey
I personally saw it as 3A but if you think the whole space and time is being wraped ALL while costing chakra this argues 2c without evidence

How will you calc the KE of moving two 4D constructs through 5D space?

I dont get the point of this? why are you all acting as this is some speculative feat requiring in depth calculation

instant swapping of a universe is just flat out universal there's no ifs or buts

 

[HelloThere1089]

I dont get the point of this? why are you all acting as this is some speculative feat requiring in depth calculation

instant swapping of a universe is just flat out universal there's no ifs or buts

I mean I would think so too, but seeing how Senjumaru's feat isn't universal made me think that the wiki would require a KE calc.

 

[Nierre]

Now Naruto will soon join Bleach where it should be. We all struggled but at last, we all eat. Not one piece though.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Now Naruto will soon join Bleach where it should be. We all struggled but at last, we all eat. Not one piece though.

Lmfao

I mean I would think so too, but seeing how Senjumaru's feat isn't universal made me think that the wiki would require a KE calc.

Senjumaru isn't significantly affecting the realms
Kaguya is


Poor Magnitude 4 Shaking versus Warping the entirety of the structure

 

[Samlex1234]

Mass in this context doesn't mean matter. Mass means collection of chakra. Words have different meanings based on context.

You keep saying Kurama is a mass of energy as if it means anything. The mass used in this statement doesn't mean "matter". And yes Chakra is a supernatural concept because it doesn't exist in real life. Momoshiki being able to interact with it doesn't make it not supernatural. As it stands chakra isn't "matter" and isn't irl energy. It is a supernatural form of energy. So irl relativistic physics can't be applied to it. Which means it can cause tears in the space time without actually exerting black holes level of energy on it.

the Naruto universe, chakra is described as a form of energy that combines physical and spiritual energy. By the way, this is not always the case as solar energy, planetary energy and many forms of energy in the Naruto world are still called chakra.
Kurama, possesses an unprecedented volume of chakra, which can be equated to an immense amount of stored energy.
According to the principles of physics, energy can warp the fabric of space-time, especially when concentrated, we have evidence that indeed the energy is concentrated in one position which is Kurama.

Argument two,

Hope you know chakra can be measured.

One example of my head is the 10 tentail energy being measured to be like it own small planet.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean I would think so too, but seeing how Senjumaru's feat isn't universal made me think that the wiki would require a KE calc.

Senjumarus feat is just blatantly different within a different cosmology. She's actually doing it with just raw power while Kaguya is using a hax ability for it + the cosmologies of the verses are different

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Characters or objects who can significantly affect,

We saw that she was able to move her Time-spaces through transportation/ teleporting/ moving, regardless she still moves it, indeed significantly affecting a space-time continuum and she is using her energy to do this.

she is using her chakra which does not translate 1:1 with Energy joules, and teleportation does not abide to the same energy requirements that PE and KE does

No it is not limited to teleporting and movement alone, she is affecting the space-time continuum on a universal scale.

yes its objectively is, the only instance of her effecting timespace with that wide of an AOE is with Amenominaka.
ontop of that if you want to be pedantic its localized Environmental summoning as those outside of kaguya's immediate vicinity are not effected by the dimensions swap.

 

[Samlex1234]

Senjumarus feat is just blatantly different within a different cosmology. She's actually doing it with just raw power while Kaguya is using a hax ability for it + the cosmologies of the verses are different

What nonsense. What a biased statement. Can you explain why hax ability powered by energy sources and can significantly affect a universal structure do not deserve a rating?

 

[Samlex1234]

she is using her chakra which does not translate 1:1 with Energy joules, and teleportation does not abide to the same energy requirements that PE and KE does

yes its objectively is, the only instance of her effecting timespace with that wide of an AOE is with Amenominaka.
ontop of that if you want to be pedantic its localized Environmental summoning as those outside of kaguya's immediate vicinity are not effected by the dimensions swap.

Go and read what I posted again because you totally ignored it. You want to change the interpretation of 2c feat. Take it up with the wiki.
Environmental summoning lol I see moving the goalpost. Just concede man.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Senjumarus feat is just blatantly different within a different cosmology. She's actually doing it with just raw power while Kaguya is using a hax ability for it + the cosmologies of the verses are different

you're not real


david is a fictional character at this point
or hes intentionally trolling

I cant count how many times kishimoto repeatedly wrote kaguya was doing this WITH HER OWN CHAKRA
he literally glazes HER POWER for being able to do it as much as he glazes the uchiha

I cant believe such a statement like this is even made

 

[Samlex1234]

Go and read what I posted again because you totally ignored it. You want to change the interpretation of 2c feat. Take it up with the wiki.
Environmental summoning lol I see moving the goalpost. Just concede man.

Don't even try to go that route because you will regret it. There is in fact an overwhelming evidence that she is in fact moving the entire dimension. Lol even the wiki says this

• Amenominaka (天之御中, Heavenly Governing Inside): By using her third eye, Kaguya is able to replace the world around her with one of her dimensions. unlike most space-time ninjutsu where one moves themselves as well as others to a destination, Kaguya moves the destination itself to her simultaneously replacing it with the other."

She moves her destination to herself and immediately replace it with the current dimension she is in. However, anyone within her vicinity is moved too. in fact they stay in the same position they were in just in a different space.

 

[DavidTPPM]

What nonsense. What a biased statement. Can you explain why hax ability powered by energy sources and can significantly affect a universal structure do not deserve a rating?

Do you think Kakashi can tank his own kamui? After all it's powered by his energy

 

[HelloThere1089]

Senjumarus feat is just blatantly different within a different cosmology. She's actually doing it with just raw power while Kaguya is using a hax ability for it + the cosmologies of the verses are different

All the more reason that Kaguya's feat won't be accepted prolly

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

senjumaru SHAKES a realm thats most likely a planet versus Kaguya warps the totality of the main space that naruto and co resided in and thats "not by her raw powers its only a hax because its naruto"

When she activates it, she uses up a large quantity of chakra, so it's a technique that only she, who has an enormous power, can use.

Kaguya is like a god for being able to swap universes so casually

YOU USE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CHAKRA WHENEVER YOU CHANGE THE TIMES SPACE OF THE WORLD

"WE CAN'T AFFORD TO SAVE OUR CHAKRA" in relation to whether or not she should use Amenominaka to get away from NS duo

Spamming universes was casual but when she gets to the even larger sized dimensions like the gravity one shes now tired because it takes chakra

Supporting Evidence since this isnt amenominaka but a similar jutsu that connects and even that takes chakra

kaguya was repeatedly glazed by Kishi because she can do this with her raw powers, as I've said before the evidence for these tiers was always there, it can't convince people that do not wish to be convinced

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Environmental summoning lol I see moving the goalpost. Just concede man.

thats quite literally what it is, whats accepted on the wiki, i was there for the thread, its shifting the dimensions, its quite literally likened to summoning in the same arc. in vs battle wiki speak, instead of BFR your opponent you BFR the environment, which is hax.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

my lord you guys are goofy, you realize an ability using resources in this case chakra does not disqualify it from being hax lmfao wtf.

Kamui is also hax and that requires huge amounts of chakra.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Do you think Kakashi can tank his own kamui? After all it's powered by his energy

youre right buddy, let's
get rid of every single KE calc in this verse, after all providing the energy for it was never enough, narutoverse cant have these tiers no matter what the author says
starting with the Hag's 845 exaton calc

my lord you guys are goofy, you realize an ability using resources in this case chakra does not disqualify it from being hax lmfao wtf.

Kamui is also hax and that requires huge amounts of chakra.

you can be hax and still scale as long youre supplying the energy needed for it