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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

Arc7Kuroi said:
Is it really that hard to understand that for those of us who believe Uzuhiko is a very likely cap for those Hidari level and weaker, would find the more conservative interpretations of the MAS more appealing? I understand that for those who don’t view Uzuhiko as a soft cap that you may view those statements as equivocal, but put yourself in our shoes for a sec.

One statement is contextualized by Naruto reaching a never before seen tier of power, bolstered by the 8 paths narrative (6 paths with Kaguya -> 8 paths with Isshiki -> 10 paths with Shibai), that we’d be more inclined to find the higher end interpretation of the Baryon Mode to possess a good degree of likelihood.

The other statement, ignoring any debate about whether it’s a generalized or contextualized to NaruSasu’s arsenal, is contextualized below Uzuhiko (based on the fact we accept Hidari > Jigen > MAS), which we believe to be a ~5-B soft cap, would make us more inclined towards the lower end interpretation.

When we (Slayer, myself, Net, whoever) disagree with the notion of the MAS statement being as good or better than the BM statement, we aren’t looking at the statements in a vacuum. We’re proceeding under the baseline that the Uzuhiko soft cap contextualizes things. Which yall are obviously free to disagree with, but that doesn’t make us inconsistent or hypocritical with our reasoning, rather we’re being very self consistent with the viewpoints we hold.
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No arc. Uzuhiko isn't one of the major reasons you guys disagree with MAS>ETSO. It's just you don't believe the statement makes reference to all ninjustu. I know this coz when it was being argued uzuhiko did not even exist.
Samlex1234 said:
Take a look at the below? Why even acknowledge this if you would not give the rating?



How will you acknowledge that Kaguya can literally move the universe away and bring her whole yet you refuse to use the feat but post the statement?
Contradictions everywhere lol
Click to expand...

I'm the one that made the xrt for that ability to be given. Where exactly do you think it scales?
 
karo_senpaii said:
No arc. Uzuhiko isn't one of the major reasons you guys disagree with MAS>ETSO. It's just you don't believe the statement makes reference to all ninjustu. I know this coz when it was being argued uzuhiko did not even exist.

I'm the one that made the xrt for that ability to be given. Where exactly do you think it scales?
Click to expand...
I can give you my arguments if you message me on discord.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
That doesn't matter because any type of teleportation is powered by chakra, even FTG. And it's called a canon because it shoots it's "teleportation" like a beam. That is not enough to claim that it would have energy equivalent to someone physically lifting the moon and relocating it because it is not doing that. At the end of the day, it's a space time ninjutsu which opens a gateway of sorts to a different dimension. Just like when Minato teleported the TBB away.

And you can't really say Naruto caused a tear in space time, then calc it to black hole level, and then not explain why Naruto isn't creating a black hole passively. Any effect in the actual space time would cause an increase in gravity. If that isn't happening then it is not following relativistic physics and so can't really be scaled to irl phenomena like black holes etc.
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In Naruto, feats like Naruto tearing space-time or even Uzuhiko using planetary energy without destroying the planet are bound by the universe’s own unique physics, not real-world laws. The Earth’s spatial curvature being 16, which would be catastrophic under real physics (For context, our Earth’s actual curvature is very close to zero, as the planet doesn’t have enough mass to significantly warp space-time )

We know that Fiction often uses “selective realism” to scale characters without following the consequences of phenomena like black holes or gravitational anomalies. For example, this is common one, moving at the speed of light should in fact defy physics and cause several effects to the planet but fictional character do that casually. I could give you more feats that defy logic or Real world physics accepted on this wiki.


In Uzuhiko’s case, planetary energy is harnessed without causing planetary destruction—an impossible feat in reality but acceptable in Naruto’s universe, where the manipulation of space-time and energy doesn’t result in real-world effects. The reason I compared the tears to real-world phenomena like black holes is purely for power scaling and (that is the minimum amount of energy needed to create tears like that), not to suggest that the actual physical consequences must follow. In short, Naruto operates under its own rules, where energy and space-time manipulation exist for narrative purposes without being constrained by real-world physics.
 
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Amenominaka would be fun to calc.
Sucks that it's spacetime hax meaning any KE that could be gained from moving the dimensions wouldn't mean anything 💔
 
Naruto was such a sad little boy. That moment when he told Kawaki that punching your own shadow clone wouldn't make you feel better was deeply sad to me, I think. Like, that's some of the most blatant self-harm kinda mentality.
 
Samlex1234 said:
In Naruto, feats like Naruto tearing space-time or even Uzuhiko using planetary energy without destroying the planet are bound by the universe’s own unique physics, not real-world laws. The Earth’s spatial curvature being 16, which would be catastrophic under real physics (For context, our Earth’s actual curvature is very close to zero, as the planet doesn’t have enough mass to significantly warp space-time )
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Which numbers are you referring to? Are you talking about the density parameter from Friedmann equations?
Samlex1234 said:
We know that Fiction often uses “selective realism” to scale characters without following the consequences of phenomena like black holes or gravitational anomalies. For example, this is common one, moving at the speed of light should in fact defy physics and cause several effects to the planet but fictional character do that casually. I could give you more feats that defy logic or Real world logical and physics accepted on this wiki.
Click to expand...
Except in those cases the speed of light is mentioned. Continued below.
Samlex1234 said:
In Uzuhiko’s case, planetary energy is harnessed without causing planetary destruction—an impossible feat in reality but acceptable in Naruto’s universe, where the manipulation of space-time and energy doesn’t result in real-world effects. The reason I compared the tears to real-world phenomena like black holes is purely for power scaling and (that is the minimum amount of energy needed to create tears like that), not to suggest that the actual physical consequences must follow. In short, Naruto operates under its own rules, where energy and space-time manipulation exist for narrative purposes without being constrained by real-world physics.
Click to expand...
In Uzuhiko's case, it is clearly mentioned that rotational KE is used. But unlike the previous two examples, we have no idea how chakra and tears in spacetime are related. What is the exact relation between chakra and spacetime? Is chakra tearing space through it's sheer mass? Or is it just fundamentally easier for chakra to tear space. Unlike SoL statements or Uzuhiko where we are outright given the speed or AP, we have no idea how chakra is causing the tears in space. You claim that it is similar to how celestial objects cause curvature in space, but that is nowhere stated to be the case.

The issue in short is this:
1. SoL statements: character moves at sol. We don't need any assumptions to conclude the speed of the character. We only need assumptions for it's repercussion.
2. Uzuhiko: character can hit you with planetary KE. Again we don't need any assumptions to conclude the AP.
3. Tears in space: We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc. For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
 
DavidTPPM said:
Do you think Kaguya is physically grabbing the dimensions and swapping them for each other or something? 🤗
Click to expand...
Movement isn’t limited to just using arms or legs. You don’t have to physically grab something to move it. Even in real life, you can move an object without touching it—like placing a piece of paper on the ground and blowing air on it to move it. However, moving something much larger, like a house, requires far more energy.

Similarly, Kaguya doesn’t need to physically grab dimensions with her hands to swap them. Just like how Hagoromo and Hamura moved the moon without physically grabbing it, Kaguya uses her energy to manipulate and shift dimensions. The scale of power here is key, and it’s clear she has the energy needed for such feats.”

“Spinning space freely without obstacles”

 
HelloThere1089 said:
Tears in space: We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc. For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
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All grass is green ≠ everything green is grass type shit.
Black holes making tears in space doesn't mean everything that makes tears in space is a black hole. And Naruto very visibly isn't a black hole and doesn't have one up his ass💀
 
Samlex1234 said:
Movement isn’t limited to just using arms or legs. You don’t have to physically grab something to move it. Even in real life, you can move an object without touching it—like placing a piece of paper on the ground and blowing air on it to move it. However, moving something much larger, like a house, requires far more energy.

Similarly, Kaguya doesn’t need to physically grab dimensions with her hands to swap them. Just like how Hagoromo and Hamura moved the moon without physically grabbing it, Kaguya uses her energy to manipulate and shift dimensions. The scale of power here is key, and it’s clear she has the energy needed for such feats.”

“Spinning space freely without obstacles”

Click to expand...

How will you calc the KE of moving two 4D constructs through 5D space?
DavidTPPM said:
All grass is green ≠ everything green is grass type shit.
Black holes making tears in space doesn't mean everything that makes tears in space is a black hole. And Naruto very visibly isn't a black hole and doesn't have one up his ass💀
Click to expand...
Yup. That's exactly my point.
 
Samlex1234 said:
Movement isn’t limited to just using arms or legs. You don’t have to physically grab something to move it. Even in real life, you can move an object without touching it—like placing a piece of paper on the ground and blowing air on it to move it. However, moving something much larger, like a house, requires far more energy.

Similarly, Kaguya doesn’t need to physically grab dimensions with her hands to swap them. Just like how Hagoromo and Hamura moved the moon without physically grabbing it, Kaguya uses her energy to manipulate and shift dimensions. The scale of power here is key, and it’s clear she has the energy needed for such feats.”

“Spinning space freely without obstacles”

Click to expand...

Yeah see how Hagoromo and Hamura used the gravity manipulation of chibaku tensei to do what you said?
Same way Kaguya is using amenos spacetime manipulation to swap the dimensions? Exactly.

Which is why Kaguya can move the gravity dimension itself but can't move IN the gravity dimension.
 
DavidTPPM said:
5D space? What? 😭
Click to expand...
If there are two 4D constructs and one of them is spatially infinite, then both of them need to be distributed on a 5D plane for them to coexist. Or else there will be overlap. If you understand matrices you'll get that. I'm not assuming anything here, it's just not logically possible otherwise.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Which numbers are you referring to? Are you talking about the density parameter from Friedmann equations?

Except in those cases the speed of light is mentioned. Continued below.

In Uzuhiko's case, it is clearly mentioned that rotational KE is used. But unlike the previous two examples, we have no idea how chakra and tears in spacetime are related. What is the exact relation between chakra and spacetime? Is chakra tearing space through it's sheer mass? Or is it just fundamentally easier for chakra to tear space. Unlike SoL statements or Uzuhiko where we are outright given the speed or AP, we have no idea how chakra is causing the tears in space. You claim that it is similar to how celestial objects cause curvature in space, but that is nowhere stated to be the case.

The issue in short is this:
1. SoL statements: character moves at sol. We don't need any assumptions to conclude the speed of the character. We only need assumptions for it's repercussion.
2. Uzuhiko: character can hit you with planetary KE. Again we don't need any assumptions to conclude the AP.
3. Tears in space: We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc. For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
Click to expand...
One question for you. Does energy produce mass?
 
HelloThere1089 said:
If there are two 4D constructs and one of them is spatially infinite, then both of them need to be distributed on a 5D plane for them to coexist. Or else there will be overlap. If you understand matrices you'll get that. I'm not assuming anything here, it's just not logically possible otherwise.
Click to expand...
That would only be true if the 4D space was infinite in all 4 directions.
 
DavidTPPM said:
That would only be true if the 4D space was infinite in all 4 directions.
Click to expand...
the 4D space we are talking about is spatially 3D and has 1D of time. So spatially speaking it only needs to be infinite in 3 dimensions, which the main Naruto universe is.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Isn't the real world's entire space time considered Low 2C?
Click to expand...
Pretty much any standard spacetime continuum is l2C, it doesn't need to be spatially infinite.
Even like, a 4D ballsack would contain an uncountably infinite amount of 3D snapshots making it technically larger than an infinite universe in a certain way.
 
DavidTPPM said:
Yeah see how Hagoromo and Hamura used the gravity manipulation of chibaku tensei to do what you said?
Same way Kaguya is using amenos spacetime manipulation to swap the dimensions? Exactly.

Which is why Kaguya can move the gravity dimension itself but can't move IN the gravity dimension.
Click to expand...
Honestly how will you put hagoromo and Hamura gravity manipulation that is accepted as a feat.

Based on the information we have Amenominaka explicitly state that it consumes a Large quantity of chakra.it still requires significant energy to execute.
Anyways why can't spatial manipulation also have an Ap feat here? Or are you saying spatial manipulation is just hax and can't be applied to AP?

Kaguya not being able to move in the gravity dimension is practically useless argument. I mean characters in Dragon ball super still exhibit physical strain and fatigue while training in gravity rooms. Despite their incredible strength.
 
Samlex1234 said:
Honestly how will you put hagoromo and Hamura gravity manipulation that is accepted as a feat.

Based on the information we have Amenominaka explicitly state that it consumes a Large quantity of chakra.it still requires significant energy to execute.
Anyways why can't spatial manipulation also have an Ap feat here? Or are you saying spatial manipulation is just hax and can't be applied to AP?

Kaguya not being able to move in the gravity dimension is practically useless argument. I mean characters in Dragon ball super still exhibit physical strain and fatigue while training in gravity rooms. Despite their incredible strength.
Click to expand...
If it was spatial manipulation kaguya would have had "4B or low2c" with spatial manipulation. People on the wiki have it. But it's space time manipulation not spatial manipulation.

Yes it requires energy to do it no one is disputing that. But what amount? Like explain it are you saying it requires 4b amount of energy? Or low 2c? What exactly are you saying amd explain how you got the value
 
HelloThere1089 said:
If there are two 4D constructs and one of them is spatially infinite, then both of them need to be distributed on a 5D plane for them to coexist. Or else there will be overlap. If you understand matrices you'll get that. I'm not assuming anything here, it's just not logically possible otherwise.
Click to expand...
don't need to be spatially finite. you also don't need an understanding of matrices for this tbh. Imagine just placing 2 1D lines parallel to one another. this is only possible if they lie on a 2D plane to keep them apart
 
karo_senpaii said:
If it was spatial manipulation kaguya would have had "4B or low2c" with spatial manipulation. People on the wiki have it. But it's space time manipulation not spatial manipulation.

Yes it requires energy to do it no one is disputing that. But what amount? Like explain it are you saying it requires 4b amount of energy? Or low 2c? What exactly are you saying amd explain how you got the value
Click to expand...
Samlex would ******* collapse in the GoH fandom because we have a mfer overlap multiple universes via brute strength accepted as just "interdimensional spatial manipulation" yet he's going insane over Kaguya doing almost the same thing using her eyeball hax not having a l2C rating 😭
 
DavidTPPM said:
Samlex would ******* collapse in the GoH fandom because we have a mfer overlap multiple universes via brute strength accepted as just "interdimensional spatial manipulation" yet he's going insane over Kaguya doing almost the same thing using her eyeball hax not having a l2C rating 😭
Click to expand...
What is my business with The GOH world? Lol you can have something that is correct and still ignored. Even for the arguments we are having now, it is not accepted hence why I'm bringing it up. You think character in GOH are universal level then fix it yourself. My problem is not your problem.
 
Ryzen7900X said:
don't need to be spatially finite. you also don't need an understanding of matrices for this tbh. Imagine just placing 2 1D lines parallel to one another. this is only possible if they lie on a 2D plane to keep them apart
Click to expand...
Yeah but this logic stops working beyond a single dimension.
Imagine having a 3D box that's infinite in length and width but only 10cm tall.
You could stack an infinite amount of those on top of each other without needing a 4th spatial dimension
 
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